What's wrong with the Mavs/How good are the Spurs?

[azirish]

Right now the Suns aren't playing all that well (sorry if I'm not impressed at beating up on Eastern Conference teams not from Boston). I'll be the first to admit the Suns are not ready to start the playoffs next week.

Fortunately, the playoffs don't start until April.

 

[jbeecham]

Right now the Suns aren't playing all that well (sorry if I'm not impressed at beating up on Eastern Conference teams not from Boston). I'll be the first to admit the Suns are not ready to start the playoffs next week.

Fortunately, the playoffs don't start until April.

I'll agree that we aren't playing very well right now and most of our schedule has been pretty easy, but we have 2 wins over Orlando and a solid win in Houston. We've shown some excellent offense at times and some flashes of good defense (although few and far between). Things are slowly coming together and players seem to be getting healthier. Hopefully they just keep improving the team chemistry and keep winning at a good pace and we'll be in great shape for the playoffs.

 

[nowagimp]

I have seen the Mavs much this season, but my reaction is that the Mavs are poorly structured and adding Bass is just a stop gap.

1. No real point guard. Harris is a good player, but he's not a guy to handle the ball with 30 seconds on the clock.

2. Too many one-on-one guys. They rank 18th in assists.

3. No low post threat. Post up Dirk is not much of an answer and their other bigs are not much of a threat unless totally ignored.

4. Too many specialists. The Mavs have too many guys who can only do one or two things well and are average or below at other stuff.

I'd guess the Mavs will turn things around and win upwards of 60 games again, but I expect they will be making a trade or two before the deadline.

All these things were true last season, and they were beating everybody but the warriors. Now they lose to the anenaless wiz, and the bucks. Do you really think last years mavs lose to the duncanless spurs?

 

[nowagimp]

Right now the Suns aren't playing all that well (sorry if I'm not impressed at beating up on Eastern Conference teams not from Boston). I'll be the first to admit the Suns are not ready to start the playoffs next week.

Fortunately, the playoffs don't start until April.

I also agree that the suns arent playing very well. But Orlando has had more wins against quality opponents than Boston. Boston has had a "bud lite" schedule so far and has lost to the Cavs.

 

[nowagimp]

The Spurs don't care what Amare does on offense. They instead allow Nash/Amare to get theirs so to speak and concentrate on limiting the effectiveness of the hired hands.

And apparently that works.

The spurs pressure the 3 point shooters and run multiple defenders at amare when he goes to the hoop and at the pick and roll with amare/Nash. Duncan is typically the 2nd or 3rd man amare faces going to the rack. Last year amare shot less than 50% FG's in the playoffs against the spurs. And you know thats not because they let him score. It is only possible to defend the 3 and the lane because they ignore the suns mid range game. That will be tougher this year with Hill. But then so will be defending Duncan for the suns.

 

[Covert Rain]

The spurs without Tim Duncan are definitely not "the best team in the NBA", hogwash.

Woa Nellie. When did I say the Spurs were the best team in the NBA without Duncan?? I said the Spurs are the best team in the NBA. The fact that they won the game last night is a testament to how deep the team is.

They should be able to win a game or 2 without Duncan. Good teams do that.

I think Dallas is a better defensive team when Dirk scores more, and the spacing is better.

You lost me there. They are better defensively when Dirk scores more and the spacing is better?? Spacing has to do with offense and I don't think the amount of points Dirk scores has any bearing on their defense.

By the way the Dallas Mavericks problems the last 2 years has more to do with they give up more points in the paint then any of the elite teams. Their team "D" and perimeter "D" has been much improved. We did a break down in the forums during the playoffs last year and Dallas was leading in giving up points in the paint heading into the playoffs.

The spurs pressure the 3 point shooters and run multiple defenders at amare when he goes to the hoop and at the pick and roll with amare/Nash. Duncan is typically the 2nd or 3rd man amare faces going to the rack. Last year amare shot less than 50% FG's in the playoffs against the spurs. And you know thats not because they let him score. It is only possible to defend the 3 and the lane because they ignore the suns mid range game. That will be tougher this year with Hill. But then so will be defending Duncan for the suns.

I agree about the perimeter defense of the Spurs. They are really good at that. They also did an excellent job of limiting penetration from the guards. They limited Steve in spurts and shut down Barbosa. This system is built on penetration. Our midrange game wasn't the problem. It was the inability to penetrate and the fact they stayed home on our 3 point shooters.

This team needs to hit 3's and penetrate to win. The addition of Hill will improve our midrange game no doubt. However, if Steve can't penetrate and we are not hitting 3's we won't beat the Spurs no matter how good our midrange game is.

 

[nowagimp]

Woa Nellie. When did I say the Spurs were the best team in the NBA without Duncan?? I said the Spurs are the best team in the NBA. The fact that they won the game last night is a testament to how deep the team is.

They should be able to win a game or 2 without Duncan. Good teams do that.




You lost me there. They are better defensively when Dirk scores more and the spacing is better?? Spacing has to do with offense and I don't think the amount of points Dirk scores has any bearing on their defense.

By the way the Dallas Mavericks problems the last 2 years has more to do with they give up more points in the paint then any of the elite teams. Their team "D" and perimeter "D" has been much improved. We did a break down in the forums during the playoffs last year and Dallas was leading in giving up points in the paint heading into the playoffs.



I agree about the perimeter defense of the Spurs. They are really good at that. They also did an excellent job of limiting penetration from the guards. They limited Steve in spurts and shut down Barbosa. This system is built on penetration. Our midrange game wasn't the problem. It was the inability to penetrate and the fact they stayed home on our 3 point shooters.

This team needs to hit 3's and penetrate to win. The addition of Hill will improve our midrange game no doubt. However, if Steve can't penetrate and we are not hitting 3's we won't beat the Spurs no matter how good our midrange game is.

1) yeah OK, I mis read that you said they won because they were the best team in the NBA. But the best team wasnt there last night.

2) Dallas is a better team when Dirk carrys the load on offense because Howard is more active defensively, AND because the spacing is better. Howards defense has taken a hit this year, when he's expected to be the #1 option and plays alot of high energy one-on-one. Hes one of the top help/permiter defenders in the NBA when he has the energy, just doesnt seem to be there this year. The mavs are allowing 5ppg more this year than last, including 37%(vs 35%) from 3pt range.

3) the way you punish the spurs for (over)playing aggressive at the 3 point line and funneling guys to TD in the lane is to pull up and take the mid range shot, it will be open. They run at guys at the 3 point line so a penetration and mid range J will be open. Unfortunately last year only Nash and Amare could take that shot and make it consistently. Now there will be Hill, and he can pass very well off the penetration if they close that shot out. If they close out on the midrange jumper, amare will get loose in the lane.

 

[Covert Rain]

2) Dallas is a better team when Dirk carrys the load on offense because Howard is more active defensively, AND because the spacing is better.

I don't agree. I think a team a player is either good defensively or not regardless if they carry a load or not. It's not like Howard stopped playing defense because he is carrying more of a load. I think the teams struggles are much bigger then Dirk not being Dirk.

3) the way you punish the spurs for (over)playing aggressive at the 3 point line and funneling guys to TD in the lane is to pull up and take the mid range shot, it will be open. They run at guys at the 3 point line so a penetration and mid range J will be open. Unfortunately last year only Nash and Amare could take that shot and make it consistently. Now there will be Hill, and he can pass very well off the penetration if they close that shot out. If they close out on the midrange jumper, amare will get loose in the lane.

I disagree. The Spurs stayed at home on the 3 point line and it allowed them to clog the lanes with weak side defense.. That prevented penetration and allowed to help out weak side in the midrange areas of the court. Barbosa couldn't drive down any lanes because there were none. Nash had to be extra creative.

I think Hill's ability to go to the basket is much bigger then his midrange shot. When Nash and Amare were not in the game, guys like Marion, Diaw and Barbosa couldn't create their own shots. Now with Hill, I think that is a much bigger factor. Hill's midrange game though should keep the Spurs honest and his passing will also be a big plus.

 

[nowagimp]

I don't agree. I think a team a player is either good defensively or not regardless if they carry a load or not. It's not like Howard stopped playing defense because he is carrying more of a load. I think the teams struggles are much bigger then Dirk not being Dirk.]

So you think that an offensive player that carrys a team doesnt have to sacrifice defensive energy to put out more offense? Well you probably can ask anyone whos played competitively about that one. Thats why when shawn guards the tougher scorers, he doesnt score as much. Thats why Kobe doesnt play much D when he rings up 50pts, not because Kobe is lazy. Thats why Tim Duncan plays better defense when he gets alot of dimes, it means alot of easy hoops and he doesnt wear himself down banging on one-on-ones. Thats why they abuse Nash on defense to make his offensive output(energy) drop. And please dont tell me that NBA players dont get tired, only someone who has never played competively would say that. No offense, but If thats the case, there is nothing more to discuss here.

 

[nowagimp]

I disagree. The Spurs stayed at home on the 3 point line and it allowed them to clog the lanes with weak side defense.. That prevented penetration and allowed to help out weak side in the midrange areas of the court. Barbosa couldn't drive down any lanes because there were none. Nash had to be extra creative.

Interesting as the spurs actually admitted that was the plan. Obviously they have to help out on the pick and roll and then get back to defend the 3. And when the ball is rotated, the weak side changes doesnt it? Staying at home is possible only if no one doubles and the ball isnt rotated.

 

[Covert Rain]

So you think that an offensive player that carrys a team doesnt have to sacrifice defensive energy to put out more offense? Well you probably can ask anyone whos played competitively about that one. Thats why when shawn guards the tougher scorers, he doesnt score as much. Thats why Kobe doesnt play much D when he rings up 50pts, not because Kobe is lazy. Thats why Tim Duncan plays better defense when he gets alot of dimes, it means alot of easy hoops and he doesnt wear himself down banging on one-on-ones. Thats why they abuse Nash on defense to make his offensive output(energy) drop. And please dont tell me that NBA players dont get tired, only someone who has never played competively would say that. No offense, but If thats the case, there is nothing more to discuss here.

nowagimp, use the + sign in lower right hand corner for multiple responses. That way you don't keep double posting my man.

I have played competitive basketball my entire life. In fact, I am in a walking boot now because I dislocated my ankle in a league game. So I understand what your trying to say. I understand that if the team completely relied on him to score and stop using Dirk, his role would change and I might agree. However, the team is still going to the same players..they just are not getting it done.

It's not like Howard was never utilize on offense. It's not like Howard doesn't have big scoring nights. It's not like Howard is being relied on to score 30 points a night.

Shawn Marion covers teams scorers from time to time but he still maintains his average in both blocks, steals and scoring. We have not changed our system to rely on scoring from Shawn and neither has Dallas. So both Shawn and Howard are just playing their games.

Interesting as the spurs actually admitted that was the plan. Obviously they have to help out on the pick and roll and then get back to defend the 3. And when the ball is rotated, the weak side changes doesnt it? Staying at home is possible only if no one doubles and the ball isnt rotated.

Actually the Spurs admitted that their plan was to play tough transition defense (which they did) and stay at home on the 3 point shooters (which they did). They turned us into a jump shooting team (from midrange) and that didn't work for us. Adding another midrange jump shooter in Grant Hill doesn't solve our problems. The Spurs defend us in the paint and on the 3 point line better then any team in the NBA. Sounds like to me they want us to take lots and lots of midrange shots.

We have to force our style of play. We have to penetrate and we have to hit 3's or good night.

 

[Lorenzo]

well that was the first game(that i can remember) dirk has played that poorly against the spurs from a scoring standpoint. he usually plays better against them when compared to most others. bowen or whoever else was on him had double team help on dirk almost every time he got the ball inside of the perimeter. I don't like the way the mavs played in the 3rd qtr, but they played well enough in the 4th to win and just fell a little short. as far as dirk not being clutch.......he isn't playing his best b-ball right now I give you that. In similiar situations he has hit many shots in the 4th qtr against the spurs and other teams. he's done it against the suns a few times as well. I went to a playoff game a few years ago where he hit a game winner.