Where is This Team Really Headed?

[Rivercard]

Originally posted by kerouac9
River, I'm not sure that I really want to talk football with you anymore. I try to back up my positions with statistics and corollary examples, and you give arbitrary replies. It's stupid, and it only angers up my blood. Until you're willing to back up your assertions with anything remotely approaching a thought-out arguement, I'm going to refrain from responding. You're worse than Tango.

That's fine Kaouac. No loss for me but I don't know why you say that I'm arbitrary. I disagree with you frequently and tell you why - but I won't repeat it over and over on each post. Either you get it or you don't.

 

[Wild Card]

Originally posted by kerouac9
... I don't get this statement. What's the point of (Graves) bidding on marquee free agents "even if he comes up short"? Doesn't that only serve to highlight the futility of the Cards organization, as well as give media coverage to the fact that players don't want to come here?

K9:

O.K., what's your point? That, in order to avoid public humiliation, the Cardinals shouldn't even attempt to sign top-tier free agents? In other words, we might get turned down, so we won't even ask. (Sounds like the dating philosophy of a high-school nerd. But I digress.)

Seriously, all the Cards have to offer--for now, at least--are starting jobs and money. Some premium FAs will go for it, some won't. Dexter Jackson and James Hodgins said yes, Rosevelt Colvin and Vonnie Holliday said no. You win some, you lose some. Keep swingin'.

The Cardinals should continue to go hard after any FA they think can help this team, either in a starting or backup role. Anything else makes no sense.

WC

 

[kerouac9]

Originally posted by Russ Smith
Because if you have caproom and only go after middling players, you will NEVER get a marquee player?

I understand what you're saying, but I'm not willing to give Graves a free pass for wiffing on free agents. His job isn't to try to get players, his job is to convince them to come here. If he fails at that, he's a failure.

I'd agree with the assessment that he needs to go after marquee free agents again and make sure they sign. I think that what Cubby probably meant is not to get discouraged by this offseason's free agent recruitment debacle. I agree with that.

 

[Rats]

TO answer the origional question posed...I think that if we have a great hope of staying solid on defense we need to look at a quality guy to replace Starks. A trade would be best. Maybe a cap strapped team. If Wash were willing to take a top pick(which would save us money next year) a run at Bailey would be great. I would say pay him. Maybe a lessor pick and player for there other corner whose name escapes me.... You have to have both a pass rush and quality(meaning fast with skills) to compete for a playoff spot. It is really going to be tough with R. Hill as a starter. I personally like him alot. He has skills. But not enough speed kills you and he is much better in a zone scheme than man to man.

 

[Tangodnzr]

Re: Re: Where is This Team Really Headed?

Originally posted by SECTION 11
Never in history has so little been said with so much.

....and sect 11 adds another count to his post total that contrubutes nothing but antagonism and trouble making. :roll:

 

[AZCB34]

Originally posted by kerouac9
Cubby, I understand what you were saying about Johnson, even if I disagree, but I don't get this statement. What's the point of bidding on marquee free agents "even if he comes up short"? Doesn't that only serve to highlight the futility of the Cards organization, as well as give media coverage to the fact that players don't want to come here?

Does the NFL give points, wins, or draft picks for effort by executives?

Graves must keep trying to get top names. If this Colvin deal this year turns him sour on pursuing free agents that could hurt. All I was suggesting is he must keep trying to lure the top names in here even if he fails to close the deal.

 

[Skkorpion]

Friction is inevitable and regular posters get cut some slack but foul language is not okay. Cubbie, dump the cussing, please.

 

[Russ Smith]

Originally posted by kerouac9
I understand what you're saying, but I'm not willing to give Graves a free pass for wiffing on free agents. His job isn't to try to get players, his job is to convince them to come here. If he fails at that, he's a failure.

I'd agree with the assessment that he needs to go after marquee free agents again and make sure they sign. I think that what Cubby probably meant is not to get discouraged by this offseason's free agent recruitment debacle. I agree with that.

This will sound like blasphemy from me, but I believe that part of the reason we went after Emmitt was the Cards felt that with Jake gone and Boston gone, there was no marketable player to use to lure guys.

I love Blake I think he's the perfect bridge QB, but you don't go to elite players like say Bailey and say "look we have Jeff Blake and we believe our young players are really going to be good you should sign here." It may well be true but as bad as Jake was, he did have market value in terms of there were some guys out there who knew who he was. OBviously Bailey wouldn't have signed with Jake here because doing so would cut his INT stats in half (-:

Graves can only do so much, you can't force guys to sign. So I fully believe that's why we signed Emmitt, the problem is it didn't work this year.

It's a heck of a lot easier to sign WR's with Vick as your QB than Blake even though right now Blake is a better passer.

 

[kerouac9]

Originally posted by Russ Smith
This will sound like blasphemy from me, but I believe that part of the reason we went after Emmitt was the Cards felt that with Jake gone and Boston gone, there was no marketable player to use to lure guys.

I love Blake I think he's the perfect bridge QB, but you don't go to elite players like say Bailey and say "look we have Jeff Blake and we believe our young players are really going to be good you should sign here." It may well be true but as bad as Jake was, he did have market value in terms of there were some guys out there who knew who he was. OBviously Bailey wouldn't have signed with Jake here because doing so would cut his INT stats in half (-:

Graves can only do so much, you can't force guys to sign. So I fully believe that's why we signed Emmitt, the problem is it didn't work this year.

It's a heck of a lot easier to sign WR's with Vick as your QB than Blake even though right now Blake is a better passer.

I believe you on why we signed Emmitt.

 

[AZCB34]

Originally posted by Skkorpion
Friction is inevitable and regular posters get cut some slack but foul language is not okay. Cubbie, dump the cussing, please.

Apologies for the cuss words. Not normal for me.

 

[conraddobler]

We are headed in the right direction.

It won't take all that long to get there.

Suprise people can and do step up.

Watching the Broncos offense was like watching my 4 year old drive a sports car.

 

[seesred]

Where are we headed this year. We are going to be much more competitive. We are headed for between 7-10 wins dependiing on breaks and injuries.
#1. We are much, much better defensively even with the two injuries. Our pass rush (didn't have one last year), is much improved with King and Pace. That only will make our safftys, corners and linebackers better.

#2. Our QB (it really doesn't matter what Jake does this year I hope he is great), is much improvbed as far as managing the game. Less mistakes equal time of possesion equal more chances to score points equals less time on the field for the Defense.

#3. Special teams should be better because of what Graves did by building the depth chart. Plus one of the best punters in the league.

#4. Mr. Smith plus Mr. Shipp should equal a pretty darn good running game.

#5. O-line stays healthy add two wins

#6. Corners and Wide outs. These people should be okay. The corners should be helped by the line, the WR should be helped by the accurate arm of Blake and Fred Jones.

Next Year. Ad 2-3 free agents, hold our people and draft just as good as this year and we will compete with anyone.

GBR

 

[MadCardDisease]

Originally posted by kerouac9
I understand what you're saying, but I'm not willing to give Graves a free pass for wiffing on free agents. His job isn't to try to get players, his job is to convince them to come here. If he fails at that, he's a failure.

I'd agree with the assessment that he needs to go after marquee free agents again and make sure they sign. I think that what Cubby probably meant is not to get discouraged by this offseason's free agent recruitment debacle. I agree with that.

So basically what you are saying is that Rod Graves didn't try hard enough and if he did he could sign any FA that he went after. I'm sorry but I don't buy it.

Second, Free Agent Recruitment Debacle is a tad way over the top don't you think?

 

[Sandan]

Originally posted by AZCB34
I said it is too early to be called a bust but frankly I am disappointed. I have never opnce mentioned the year thing for a WR. He was drafted to play and he isn't playing well right now.

I have a total clue. See I know you are a

EDIT: I am sick and tired of you coming on here like you are some genius. Just because you get some insider privileges doesn;t mean you know squat.

Sorry if I pissed you off but to even mention "bust" yet is daft. Talk about that next season or maybe the middle of next season and there may be evough information to make a reasoned judgement.

As to my football knowledge, I think I have been real clear on that. I know very little compared to a lot of people on this board, you are may be one of those who knows far more than I do. No sarcasm intended.

Now if you want to talk about body mechanics that is a whole different subject and I do know more than a little about that.

It's just that to even bring that word up is outragous this early.

 

[spanky]

A couple of points: Graves' job is to put the best team that is available to us on the field. It cannot be inferred that he is a failure because he couldn't "convince" every free agent that we wanted to recruit, to come here. We got two VERY IMPORTANT FA's to come here. Not bad.

I'll go on record as saying that there will be some roster moves soon regarding our CB position. But I think we should expect that Graves will move ONLY when he and Mac are convinced that an improvement over what we've got is available. And I think they've got a better grasp as to the process of getting down to 53 than we do. They also know what teams will be thining where and with whom. They will move appropriately.

 

[kerouac9]

Originally posted by MadCardDisease
So basically what you are saying is that Rod Graves didn't try hard enough and if he did he could sign any FA that he went after. I'm sorry but I don't buy it.

Second, Free Agent Recruitment Debacle is a tad way over the top don't you think?

I don't know. Having your three most-coveted free agents (R. Colvin, V. Holliday, and [like it or not] K. Stewart) tell you no and go somewhere else for less money and having to settle for a fullback, a free safety, and a bunch of backup offenseive linemen that nobody's ever heard of sounds like a debacle to me, especially considering that the media widely reported the fact that those free agents declined for less money.

I'm saying that effort doesn't mean anything in this league, at least to me; I measure success in terms of production. I don't excuse KVB's dismal performance because of great effort, nor Wakefield's, nor Mac's, nor Plummer's. If Graves tries hard and fails, he still fails. The difference between good and bad GMs in this league is that good GMs get the players they go after. Every GM tries hard.

 

[Rivercard]

Originally posted by kerouac9
I understand what you're saying, but I'm not willing to give Graves a free pass for wiffing on free agents. His job isn't to try to get players, his job is to convince them to come here. If he fails at that, he's a failure.

I'd agree with the assessment that he needs to go after marquee free agents again and make sure they sign. I think that what Cubby probably meant is not to get discouraged by this offseason's free agent recruitment debacle. I agree with that.

Debacle? I assume you mean Rod failed because Colvin didn't come here, but we gained much more in free agency than we lost. Do you call that whiffing?

 

[Russ Smith]

Originally posted by kerouac9
I don't know. Having your three most-coveted free agents (R. Colvin, V. Holliday, and [like it or not] K. Stewart) tell you no and go somewhere else for less money and having to settle for a fullback, a free safety, and a bunch of backup offenseive linemen that nobody's ever heard of sounds like a debacle to me, especially considering that the media widely reported the fact that those free agents declined for less money.

Didn't Kordell leave town, get an offer, tell us he wanted to see more teams, and then Blake took the same offer before Kordell ever got back to us? That's my recollection I don't think he took less money to avoid us I think he took less money because we'd already signed Blake.

 

[AZCB34]

Originally posted by Rivercard
Debacle? I assume you mean Rod failed because Colvin didn't come here, but we gained much more in free agency than we lost. Do you call that whiffing?

But he coudln't close his two biggest deals. That hurt. The overall picture doesn;t look too bad but he just didn't have enough gusto to close the two top deals.

I personally don't think Graves settked for Blake but that is opinion more than anything. I bet he had Stewart and Blake rated pretty close.

Debacle? No. Took some lumps in FA? Yes. Anytime a player goes elsewhere for less money, I believe it is a direct reflection on what your sales pitch (ie plan/current abilities) is and Colvin and Holliday (who was likely just using AZ as leverage it seemed) didn't buy into the pitch.

All I hope is this doesn't cause Graves to get cold feet. Kerouac is right when he says you don't get points for trying but you gotta keep trying even when you fail. And on Colvin and Holliday, Graves failed.

 

[Wild Card]

Originally posted by Russ Smith
Didn't Kordell leave town, get an offer, tell us he wanted to see more teams, and then Blake took the same offer before Kordell ever got back to us? That's my recollection I don't think he took less money to avoid us I think he took less money because we'd already signed Blake.

Russ:

You're essentially correct. The Cardinals signed Jeff Blake, while Kordell Stewart was still on the market, because they didn't intend to get into a bidding war with the Bears and drive up Stewart's price. Implies they didn't see a great deal of difference between the two players, and/ or that they had no intention of missing out on Blake while getting song-and-danced by Stewart.

K9's just framing the process in a way that best supports his argument.

WC

 

[Pariah]

Originally posted by Russ Smith
Didn't Kordell leave town, get an offer, tell us he wanted to see more teams, and then Blake took the same offer before Kordell ever got back to us? That's my recollection I don't think he took less money to avoid us I think he took less money because we'd already signed Blake.

No, I think we made him an offer after he went to Chicago and then he told us to ****** off. We signed Blake and then he signed with Chicago.

I think you've got the timeline right, but you missed the "****** off" part.

 

[Rivercard]

Originally posted by AZCB34
But he coudln't close his two biggest deals. That hurt. The overall picture doesn;t look too bad but he just didn't have enough gusto to close the two top deals.

I personally don't think Graves settked for Blake but that is opinion more than anything. I bet he had Stewart and Blake rated pretty close.

Debacle? No. Took some lumps in FA? Yes. Anytime a player goes elsewhere for less money, I believe it is a direct reflection on what your sales pitch (ie plan/current abilities) is and Colvin and Holliday (who was likely just using AZ as leverage it seemed) didn't buy into the pitch.

All I hope is this doesn't cause Graves to get cold feet. Kerouac is right when he says you don't get points for trying but you gotta keep trying even when you fail. And on Colvin and Holliday, Graves failed.

Yeah it's dissapointing that we didn't get those two guys but considering our reputation it's not too shocking. It's gonna take a while to turn this ship around. Hopefully future FA's will see some postive changes here and we'll start to sign more of the premier guys. But overall we improved in FA this offseason IMO.

 

[kerouac9]

Originally posted by Wild Card
Russ:

You're essentially correct. The Cardinals signed Jeff Blake, while Kordell Stewart was still on the market, because they didn't intend to get into a bidding war with the Bears and drive up Stewart's price. Implies they didn't see a great deal of difference between the two players, and/ or that they had no intention of missing out on Blake while getting song-and-danced by Stewart.

K9's just framing the process in a way that best supports his argument.

WC

WC -

Say I'm spinning as much as you want, but if you remember what Graves was saying about Kordell's workout in the press when he was here, it was pretty obvious that this was his guy. When it became clear that he wasn't going to take our offer, Graves signed Blake, who was just looking for a starting job, and didn't have much else out there. That's what I read into the situation when it was going on. I didn't want Kordell, I wanted Jeff, but it sure looked like Mac and Graves wanted Kordell.

 

[Rivercard]

Originally posted by kerouac9
WC -

Say I'm spinning as much as you want, but if you remember what Graves was saying about Kordell's workout in the press when he was here, it was pretty obvious that this was his guy. When it became clear that he wasn't going to take our offer, Graves signed Blake, who was just looking for a starting job, and didn't have much else out there. That's what I read into the situation when it was going on. I didn't want Kordell, I wanted Jeff, but it sure looked like Mac and Graves wanted Kordell.

Thank heavens we didn't sign Kordell!

 

[AZCB34]

Originally posted by Rivercard
Yeah it's dissapointing that we didn't get those two guys but considering our reputation it's not too shocking. It's gonna take a while to turn this ship around. Hopefully future FA's will see some postive changes here and we'll start to sign more of the premier guys. But overall we improved in FA this offseason IMO.

Yes, this team is better...no doubt about it. And while I am still disappointed Colvin didn't sign here, Graves made a good stab at it. Hopefully he learned lessons from what happened (if any were to be learned) and next time can close the deal.

More importantly, you are right. Perception is alot of the problem and if/when this team starts winning, Graves' job will be much easier.