Which Way Is Better?

[Garthshort]

I am a long time fan of the baseball Cardinals (1945) and football Cardinals (1947). And this has been a BAD year for both franchises. What I find completely different is the way their fans and the media view the future of both teams. While it's just my opinion, but one shared by many fans, is that here in Arizona the future is bleak, and there is little chance for any success in the near term. While in St. Louis, the next Cardinal future star is just around the corner, whether he arrives by trade or in free agency. This opinion is "pushed" by the media and the fanbase. A far cry from the football Cardinals, even though it looks like the team might end up with a first round star, and who knows how FA will turn out.

So my question is it better to give fans a reason for hope, even if it will probably not happen, or not? Or is it just the job of the media to tell it like it is?

 

[ReasonableMan]

I think you’ve misread the room. The fans of the AZCardinals seem to think the problem is Wilks. Not that the future is bleak but it could be with him around

 

[PACardsFan]

I am a long time fan of the baseball Cardinals (1945) and football Cardinals (1947). And this has been a BAD year for both franchises. What I find completely different is the way their fans and the media view the future of both teams. While it's just my opinion, but one shared by many fans, is that here in Arizona the future is bleak, and there is little chance for any success in the near term. While in St. Louis, the next Cardinal future star is just around the corner, whether he arrives by trade or in free agency. This opinion is "pushed" by the media and the fanbase. A far cry from the football Cardinals, even though it looks like the team might end up with a first round star, and who knows how FA will turn out.

So my question is it better to give fans a reason for hope, even if it will probably not happen, or not? Or is it just the job of the media to tell it like it is?

I'm also a baseball & football fan of the Cardinals. I don't go back as far as you do, as I started as a fan in the early 60's. Thanks for your loyalty. Baseball Cardinal fans are very knowledgeable & have been treated to 11 World Championships over the years. That's the most in the National League. Part of the reason that the football team left St. Louis, is that Bidwill was the redheaded stepchild in St. Louis. Without his own stadium, he could never reproduce the success that the baseball organization had. You indicated that BOTH Cardinal teams have had a bad year. The baseball team was 88-74 & just missed the playoffs as a wild card. The football team is heading for a 2-14 record. That's a huge disparity. And therein lies your answer. Because of their historical successes, the Cardinal baseball fans consider 88-74 & missing the playoffs a bad year. Their expectations are always high because they have always been winners & know they will win again. Probably sooner than later.

Other than a few seasons, the football team has pretty much been the league laughingstock. AZ fans are frustrated because all they see is the "same old Cardinals'. With football, past failures are carried over to current & future expectations. Michael has been a much better owner than his Dad & that's mainly because of the new stadium. He's in a pickle right now with problems across the board: poor GM, piss poor HC & staff, lifeless roster. We're going to see what Michael is made of real soon. But you can't blame the football fans for always seeing doom & gloom. That's pretty much all they've been fed on and off the football field.

 

[Garthshort]

Two replies:
1. Reasonable, many if not most of the fans think it is part (a big part) Wilks, but also part Keim and ownership as well. I don't read much, like, "Here's how we get back on track".

2. Pa, you make an excellent point about the success that the baseball has had, but, once again, they didn't make the PS, and now find themselves behind the Cubs and the Brewers in the Central, and I don't see that changing. But, the media keeps teasing the fans that the team will sign a Star FA, and this goes back to Max Scherzer (He might give the team a home town discount).

For me, I think the football Cards have a better chance for success, since the financial playing field is level.

 

[TheCardFan]

Also a Redbird and Cardinal fan.

Two completely different situations. The Redbirds have a tradition of winning and being competitive nearly every year. They are known for being frugal (vs Yankees, Dodgers, Red Sox, etc) but still have continuous success. The fan base expects winning but they put up with the Cards being frugal. Very loyal fan base.

The Cardinals have a history of losing and being cheap (vs frugal). These two franchises are exact opposites of each other from a success perspective. The fan base is getting stronger and their expectations are increasing but this team has been hot garbage for 80% of its existence. I really believe things have changed for the better since Michael took over for pops. I also believe this year is a blip on the radar vs a trend back to the old Cardinals. This franchise has come a long way.

I would say the Pittsburgh Steelers are the NFL's version of the STL Cardinals.

 

[PACardsFan]

Two replies:
1. Reasonable, many if not most of the fans think it is part (a big part) Wilks, but also part Keim and ownership as well. I don't read much, like, "Here's how we get back on track".

2. Pa, you make an excellent point about the success that the baseball has had, but, once again, they didn't make the PS, and now find themselves behind the Cubs and the Brewers in the Central, and I don't see that changing. But, the media keeps teasing the fans that the team will sign a Star FA, and this goes back to Max Scherzer (He might give the team a home town discount).

For me, I think the football Cards have a better chance for success, since the financial playing field is level.

I agree with 1 & 2 above. The baseball Cardinals have become quite arrogant of late & that is why they're lagging behind the Cubs & Brewers. Their GM is overrated & Dewitt won't tolerate 2nd & 3rd place finishes too much longer. The Brewers are young & will be very good for the foreseeable future. The Cubs will be good for as long as their current GM is there.

I'm not sure I agree that the football Cards have a better chance for success. Michael will have to prove to me that he can make better decisions than the one he made with Wilks. I give him kudos for the stadium & even the Whiz & BA hires. What will he do with the Keim/Wilks situation? Will he keep them around another year so as to lessen the financial burdens of their contracts? Or will he do what's in the best interest of this fanbase & start anew asap. His Dad chose a wishy washy market in AZ & he has to live with that. It took so long (ownership/stadium fault) to build this fanbase, so the roots aren't deep enough to overcome the garbage that's on the field right now. This is a great opportunity for MB to shine. I hope he does.

 

[football karma]

the AZ Cardinals are 2-9. that's a .181 winning percentage. They are on track for a 2-14 season, a .125 winning percentage

had the STL Cardinals produced a .181 winning percentage last year -- or went 29-133 -- I think fans in St Louis would consider things pretty hopeless

 

[POISON]

I'm also a baseball & football fan of the Cardinals. I don't go back as far as you do, as I started as a fan in the early 60's. Thanks for your loyalty. Baseball Cardinal fans are very knowledgeable & have been treated to 11 World Championships over the years. That's the most in the National League. Part of the reason that the football team left St. Louis, is that Bidwill was the redheaded stepchild in St. Louis. Without his own stadium, he could never reproduce the success that the baseball organization had. You indicated that BOTH Cardinal teams have had a bad year. The baseball team was 88-74 & just missed the playoffs as a wild card. The football team is heading for a 2-14 record. That's a huge disparity. And therein lies your answer. Because of their historical successes, the Cardinal baseball fans consider 88-74 & missing the playoffs a bad year. Their expectations are always high because they have always been winners & know they will win again. Probably sooner than later.

Other than a few seasons, the football team has pretty much been the league laughingstock. AZ fans are frustrated because all they see is the "same old Cardinals'. With football, past failures are carried over to current & future expectations. Michael has been a much better owner than his Dad & that's mainly because of the new stadium. He's in a pickle right now with problems across the board: poor GM, piss poor HC & staff, lifeless roster. We're going to see what Michael is made of real soon. But you can't blame the football fans for always seeing doom & gloom. That's pretty much all they've been fed on and off the football field.

PA, I'm the same as you, I'm a fan of both as well. My earliest football Cardinals memories are the early 70's with Jim Hart , Mel Gray , Terry Metcalf ,Jim Otis ,Roger Wehrli etc. It stunk back then that I'd be lucky to watch them 5 or 6 times a year on tv

 

[oaken1]

the medias job is to report facts...nothing more.

the team itself should be providing the hope.



"Just the fax ma'am. nothing but the fax"

 

[PACardsFan]

PA, I'm the same as you, I'm a fan of both as well. My earliest football Cardinals memories are the early 70's with Jim Hart , Mel Gray , Terry Metcalf ,Jim Otis ,Roger Wehrli etc. It stunk back then that I'd be lucky to watch them 5 or 6 times a year on tv

Those were great years for the Cardinals. Probably my favorite years.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

One team has a history of winning, and one team has a history of losing.

When the St. Louis Cardinals baseball team is bad, it is seen as an outlier, when the Arizona Cardinals Football team is good, it is is seen as an outlier.

Therein lies the difference.

 

[NJCardFan]

The football Cards not being successful in STL because of a lack of their own stadium is not true. When Busch Stadium was built, it was during the era of multipurpose stadiums. Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, Philadelphia all had similar stadiums and had levels of success with the Stealers winning 4 Super Bowls while playing in Three Rivers. The problem with the Big Red was Bill Bidwill's unwillingness to spend money. In the 70's the football Cards were more successful on the field than the baseball Cards. The baseball Cards were an average team until Whitey Herzog came around while the Big Red were perennial contenders from 1974-77. They had every opportunity to be champions but Bidwill wouldn't spend the money on key pieces. Had they won or at least made the Super Bowl back then they would have been the toast of the town.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[cardpa]

I'm in the same boat as PA and Poison, A STL Cardinal fan and a AZ Cardinal fan. Been there since the 60s. The days of Whiteyball were some of the best in the 80s. Coleman, Herr, Smith, McGee were a blast to watch. They drove pitchers crazy with their base stealing abilities. I think Coleman even stole home a few times if I'm correct. The point is the STL Cardinals have been so good at finding good to great managers for the most part. The staffs were full of good coaches. The AZ Cardinals on the other hand have been generally a disaster at finding good coaches. You can point out Whiz and Arians however even their success was short lived and were essentially a two year run by Whiz which was more getting hot at the right time than a banner regular season and Arians with a three season run but nothing to write home about in the playoffs. Outside of them and the Coryell years in STL the choices of HCs has left a lot to be desired. I think you can say the same about the GMs too. This comes down to ownership plain and simple.

 

[POISON]

I'm in the same boat as PA and Poison, A STL Cardinal fan and a AZ Cardinal fan. Been there since the 60s. The days of Whiteyball were some of the best in the 80s. Coleman, Herr, Smith, McGee were a blast to watch. They drove pitchers crazy with their base stealing abilities. I think Coleman even stole home a few times if I'm correct. The point is the STL Cardinals have been so good at finding good to great managers for the most part. The staffs were full of good coaches. The AZ Cardinals on the other hand have been generally a disaster at finding good coaches. You can point out Whiz and Arians however even their success was short lived and were essentially a two year run by Whiz which was more getting hot at the right time than a banner regular season and Arians with a three season run but nothing to write home about in the playoffs. Outside of them and the Coryell years in STL the choices of HCs has left a lot to be desired. I think you can say the same about the GMs too. This comes down to ownership plain and simple.

Vince Coleman could flat out haul ass when it came to base stealing, talk about a weapon! How the heck that tarp rolling out injuring him for the playoffs is beyond me.

 

[NJCardFan]

St. Louis was always a baseball town anyway. When I went to St. Louis to see the Cards v Tampa in 1987, there was baseball Cardinal stuff everywhere with a smattering of football Cardinal stuff. The baseball Cards just competing in the World Series didn't hurt. And there was no mention of a hockey team anywhere and I do mean anywhere.

 

[forever red]

MB has built a large amount of capital over the last ten years. That's why he has no choice but to fire Wilks . If he doesn't there is a substantial likelihood he will lose 15-20% of his season ticket holders which will take years if not a decade to recapture. Wilks is simply not head coaching material . And anyone who has watched this team knows that . It doesn't matter if he is given 1 or 2 more years to " turn things around". If MB goes that direction this team will return to its laughing stock doormat days at Sun Devil stadium

 

[PACardsFan]

The football Cards not being successful in STL because of a lack of their own stadium is not true. When Busch Stadium was built, it was during the era of multipurpose stadiums. Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, Philadelphia all had similar stadiums and had levels of success with the Stealers winning 4 Super Bowls while playing in Three Rivers. The problem with the Big Red was Bill Bidwill's unwillingness to spend money. In the 70's the football Cards were more successful on the field than the baseball Cards. The baseball Cards were an average team until Whitey Herzog came around while the Big Red were perennial contenders from 1974-77. They had every opportunity to be champions but Bidwill wouldn't spend the money on key pieces. Had they won or at least made the Super Bowl back then they would have been the toast of the town.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The baseball Cardinals were not a powerhouse in the 70's (they were in the 40's, 50's & 60's), but they still had a long history of winning dating back almost a century. Yes, one could say that Bill Bidwill was frugal to a fault. He was old school NFL ownership. He made his money from football operations, which was a far cry from the new owners that made millions in other sectors before buying into the NFL. In the early days, he HAD to be cheap just to survive. Bidwill left because he wanted the city of St. Louis to build him a 70,000 seat stadium. Not only was the 55,000 seat Busch Stadium the 2nd smallest in the NFL then, but he had to share concessions & parking revenues at the time with the baseball Cardinals. The same wasn't true during baseball season, when the baseball team weren't required to do the same with parking & concessions. The city of St. Louis declined & yet every stadium built since has been financed off the backs of taxpayers. St. Louis screwed up and has admitted it. They truly should have built that stadium for Bidwill.

 

[Garthshort]

Cards, unfortunately, were not good in the fifties. They were late signing black players, with 1B, Tom Alston being the first. Branch Rickey and the Dodgers ate their lunch.

 

[NJCardFan]

The baseball Cardinals were not a powerhouse in the 70's (they were in the 40's, 50's & 60's), but they still had a long history of winning dating back almost a century. Yes, one could say that Bill Bidwill was frugal to a fault. He was old school NFL ownership. He made his money from football operations, which was a far cry from the new owners that made millions in other sectors before buying into the NFL. In the early days, he HAD to be cheap just to survive. Bidwill left because he wanted the city of St. Louis to build him a 70,000 seat stadium. Not only was the 55,000 seat Busch Stadium the 2nd smallest in the NFL then, but he had to share concessions & parking revenues at the time with the baseball Cardinals. The same wasn't true during baseball season, when the baseball team weren't required to do the same with parking & concessions. The city of St. Louis declined & yet every stadium built since has been financed off the backs of taxpayers. St. Louis screwed up and has admitted it. They truly should have built that stadium for Bidwill.

The funny thing is that a few years after the Cards left, STL built the dome.

 

[PACardsFan]

I'm in the same boat as PA and Poison, A STL Cardinal fan and a AZ Cardinal fan. Been there since the 60s. The days of Whiteyball were some of the best in the 80s. Coleman, Herr, Smith, McGee were a blast to watch. They drove pitchers crazy with their base stealing abilities. I think Coleman even stole home a few times if I'm correct. The point is the STL Cardinals have been so good at finding good to great managers for the most part. The staffs were full of good coaches. The AZ Cardinals on the other hand have been generally a disaster at finding good coaches. You can point out Whiz and Arians however even their success was short lived and were essentially a two year run by Whiz which was more getting hot at the right time than a banner regular season and Arians with a three season run but nothing to write home about in the playoffs. Outside of them and the Coryell years in STL the choices of HCs has left a lot to be desired. I think you can say the same about the GMs too. This comes down to ownership plain and simple.

It's always great to find Cardinal fans in both baseball & football. Especially, those of us that are old enough to remember the football Cardinals of the 60's & 70's. People always remember the Coryell years because they were offensive juggernauts. Don't short the Cardinals of the 60's though. They actually had 2 pretty good HC's in Wally Lemm & Charley Winner. Wally Lemm had seasons of 9-5 & 9-3-2. The problem was there were no wild card births then and they had the powerhouse Cleveland Browns in their division back then. Lemm eventually was fired when the Cardinals failed to sign Joe Namath & the rest was history.

Charley Winner also had a few nice seasons too (8-5-1, 9-4-1, and 8-5-1). Unfortunately, none of these seasons got them into the playoffs. Bill Bidwill fired Winner after he started the 70 season 8-2-1, only to lose his last 3 (mostly tight games) & again miss out on the playoffs. I still maintain that the greatest win ever was in 1970 when we beat the powerhouse Dallas Cowboys 38-0 on a Monday night game in Dallas. Dandy Don Meredith was one of the announcers in the booth that night & sang "Turn off the Lights" to America's team after the 3rd quarter ended. That 70 team had 3 straight shutouts, winning 44-0, 31-0 & 38-0. Winner should have never been fired.

Cardinal HC's after that:
Bob Hollway (71-72) Awful
Coryell (73-77) Very Good
Wilkinson (78-79) Awful
Hanifan (80-85) Decent
Stallings (86-89) Decent
Bugel (90-93) Awful
Ryan (94-95) Awful
Tobin (96-00) Decent
McGinnis (01 - 03) Awful
Denny Green (04-06) pretty much awful
Whisenhunt - Pretty Good
BA - Good
Wilks - Pathetic

 

[cardpa]

It's always great to find Cardinal fans in both baseball & football. Especially, those of us that are old enough to remember the football Cardinals of the 60's & 70's. People always remember the Coryell years because they were offensive juggernauts. Don't short the Cardinals of the 60's though. They actually had 2 pretty good HC's in Wally Lemm & Charley Winner. Wally Lemm had seasons of 9-5 & 9-3-2. The problem was there were no wild card births then and they had the powerhouse Cleveland Browns in their division back then. Lemm eventually was fired when the Cardinals failed to sign Joe Namath & the rest was history.

Charley Winner also had a few nice seasons too (8-5-1, 9-4-1, and 8-5-1). Unfortunately, none of these seasons got them into the playoffs. Bill Bidwill fired Winner after he started the 70 season 8-2-1, only to lose his last 3 (mostly tight games) & again miss out on the playoffs. I still maintain that the greatest win ever was in 1970 when we beat the powerhouse Dallas Cowboys 38-0 on a Monday night game in Dallas. Dandy Don Meredith was one of the announcers in the booth that night & sang "Turn off the Lights" to America's team after the 3rd quarter ended. That 70 team had 3 straight shutouts, winning 44-0, 31-0 & 38-0. Winner should have never been fired.

Cardinal HC's after that:
Bob Hollway (71-72) Awful
Coryell (73-77) Very Good
Wilkinson (78-79) Awful
Hanifan (80-85) Decent
Stallings (86-89) Decent
Bugel (90-93) Awful
Ryan (94-95) Awful
Tobin (96-00) Decent
McGinnis (01 - 03) Awful
Denny Green (04-06) pretty much awful
Whisenhunt - Pretty Good
BA - Good
Wilks - Pathetic

I remember this well. Wasn't the three straight losses right after the Dallas game if I remember correctly. I too would have to put that Dallas get right up there as the best game I have ever gotten to watch and I remember Meredith singing. ABC Monday Night Football.

 

[PACardsFan]

I remember this well. Wasn't the three straight losses right after the Dallas game if I remember correctly. I too would have to put that Dallas get right up there as the best game I have ever gotten to watch and I remember Meredith singing. ABC Monday Night Football.

After the Dallas game, they tied KC & then beat the Eagles. Their 3 losses were @Detroit, vs Giants, @Washington. They lost the Washington game 28-27, which was a heartbreaking loss that eliminated them from the playoffs. Bidwill was so pissed off that he fired Winner the next morning. Bill was heartless at times.

 

[JeffGollin]

StL and Various FB Cards - same years as Garth (in addition to living in his home town)

This year's baseball Cardinals were pennant chasers who had the misfortune of having to beat out the Cubbies and Brewers in the very competitive NL Central.

The AZ Cards got off on the wrong foot and continued to follow the path downward.

StL Cards: Top quartile with a path upward (needing a few favorable player moves).

AZ Cards: In the bottom 2 or 3 NFL teams and pointed in the wrong direction. It's gonna take a major overhaul of players and staff along with a series of lucky breaks to right this barge.

Note - Biggest surprise is how quickly the fortunes of AZ have changed in just one season.

 

[POISON]

^true^