Whis & Warner Debate Who Made Who?

[RugbyMuffin]

Too much authority, too soon. And there wasn't really a check on him in Graves.

You are on to something there my friend.

Generally speaking,

Too much, too soon usually ends up with over doing it on the authoritative part of managing/leading/coaching, because of a mix of lack of confidence, inexperience, and defensiveness.

It this what is has happened to Whiz ? Maybe. I know it happened to Bellichek in Cleveland during his first time around.

 

[Duckjake]

I wish you would at least respond to what was actually written before going off on a tirade.

Your abridged history of what happened was so far off though...please don't try and pass the blame to me by acting like my point of view is that of the lunatic fringe. My version is much closer to the actual events than yours.

Just for you, I will restate. Warner's problems in '05(and '02, '03, '04 & "most" of '06) when he got to the Cardinals started and stopped with his inability to hold onto the ball. He could still pass, he could still read a defense, he just couldn't grip the ball. It was problematic to the point of him not even being able to take snaps from center with relative security.

All of his problems stemmed from there. I really don't see why you feel compelled to argue about that. It isn't an indictment against Whis. It doesn't discount what Whis and Haley did help Warner with. But Warner adopting the glove, on his own, was the biggest factor in him being able to stay on the field as a full time starter.

But the fact also remains that Whis didn't choose him as the starter nor did he choose him as a reclamation project. He didn't reinvent him either. He forced him to be less risky with the ball. And that is a good thing and it was what the Cardinals needed.

So his inability to hold onto the ball explains why Warner from 2002-2006 threw more interceptions than TDs? And was 17TD to 15INTs in Arizona?

Why wasn't that a problem from 1999-2001?

And what the heck happened in 2002 when Warner threw 11 interceptions and only 3 TD passes?

 

[CaptTurbo]

Agreed 100%. A good QB would make this offense click with the current offensive team around him. Add Boldin to this years team and the offense still stinks.

Boldin would have killed DA by now.

 

[desertdawg]

Boldin would have killed DA by now.

That would be hilarious. Boldin giving DA the Seymour slap after another high pass.

 

[chickenhead]

They made each other. What you're looking for is a successful HC-QB tandem. We can add Haley to the mix, but the problem now isn't so much that Haley is in KC as that we didn't replace him. He is replaceable in his OC role. It just hasn't happened.

 

[moklerman]

Whiz and staff put an emphasis on ball security. That is part of coaching. You can either give them that respect or not.

Which I did and do. But Warner wasn't averse to protecting the ball before he got to Arizona. He led the league in lowest INT% while with the Giants in '04. And I still think most of the "crucial turnovers" that you reference were pre-glove, in which case I think his grip on the ball(or lack of) was affecting his performance. The wobbly passes and inability to put that little extra on his passes because of a lack of grip strength for example.

But Warner came to the Cardinals in 2005. If we are talking about "glossing over" then why is the 2005 and 2006 season wiped out of the conversations ? Just statin', not hatin'

I didn't gloss over it. 2006 is important because the last two games of that season is when Warner first started wearing the glove. You keep saying that I have dismissed or excused his play previous to that time but I haven't. The point remains that as soon as he started wearing the glove, he was able to hold onto the ball and started looking like his old self. Which predates Whis as the HC of the Cardinals.

You say that your version is correct. I say my version is correct.

Well, in your version Whis and Haley come in and make Warner better and you'd rather have Boldin back than Warner. I disagree with both ideas.

Whis and Haley deserve credit for(finally) giving Warner the opportunity to compete for the starting job. Which wasn't exactly an inspired decision. Warner had just put up 27 TD's in less than 16 games with one arm and Whis and Haley were handed an approach on offense that they wouldn't have taken without Warner.

We don't even know if they would have given Warner a chance if Leinart hadn't gotten hurt. Warner getting the no-huddle package was more about motivating Leinart than an open QB competition in '07. Even in '08, Whis would have gone with Leinart(IMO) if he hadn't imploded vs. Oakland in the preseason.

I agree that they ultimately made the decision to go with Warner but it wasn't any genius on their part. I don't think they should be given too much credit in that regard and I really don't think they should be credited with re-inventing Warner. Neither of them suggested the glove and their preference on offense was to run the ball.

Not that my opinion will be taken at face value but I think it is Warner who deserves credit for pushing and arguing and fighting to get the offense to where he liked it and what eventually became a completely different approach than what Whis/Haley started out with.

Warner adopted the glove. Warner got in the best shape of his career. Warner pushed for a different approach on offense. Warner was the one making the reads at the line and making the throws. Acting like Whis/Haley came in and waved a magic wand is a huge disservice to what Warner did and his part in things.

 

[Spielman]

So his inability to hold onto the ball explains why Warner from 2002-2006 threw more interceptions than TDs?

And what the heck happened in 2002 when Warner threw 11 interceptions and only 3 TD passes?

These question in conjunction with each other are a little unfair, since the only season in which Warner ever threw more INTs than TDs was 2002. So really, they're the same question.

And actually, yes, his inability to hold onto the ball does explain, at least in part, why his TD to INT ratio wasn't good. It's hard to throw touchdown passes on drives where you fumbled the ball away.

 

[freebyrd]

Agree. But a lot of people seem to forget that.

1. Warner sucked when he first came to AZ.

2. Whiz comes in, and WHIZ BRINGS IN HALEY AS OC, they make Warner a better QB in his old age.

3. Warner, with his new found style, plays at an All-pro level.

4. Haley leaves, and the Cardinals still go to the playoffs with Warner.

5. Warner, Boldin, and Danbsy leave. Now we suck.

Yes, I think Boldin, who thrives in extending drives, is the biggest part of our offensive drop off. Never ever should have traded him.

boldin..yup gotta agree with you on this rugby, hated to see him go,i knew he had a lot left in the tank, yeah he got dinged from time to time but he manned up and came back everytime look at that hit in new york and the reconstructive face surgery now contrast that with early exit doucett, kid gets hurt if he has to change his mind to fast
we should have moved heaven and earth to keep Q, adrian wilson on the other hand even though he is not being used correctly in billy davis scheme you can see he has lost a half step,
but he does have that never give up attitude so like boldin i think he can dig down and return to form especially if our new defensive coordinator use's him to maximize his skill set,

now i am not going to be popular for this but i voted yes in the trade fitz poll,i think he is becoming disgruntled and frustrated trying to catch pass's from our junior varsity quarterback line up, if you get him a stud in the offseason or draft andrew luck, i think he'll be happy and that will reflect in his play.
if you bring another retread in here and draft some project QB in the middle rounds then his play and the effort he puts in is going to suffer,
i was reading somewhere though that there is a no trade clause in his contract,
doe's that mean we can't trade him and get compensated for it or just that he has to approve the trade,
if he's calling the shots like that who ever allowed that to be put in his contract was a real jackwagon

 

[Duckjake]

These question in conjunction with each other are a little unfair, since the only season in which Warner ever threw more INTs than TDs was 2002. So really, they're the same question.

And actually, yes, his inability to hold onto the ball does explain, at least in part, why his TD to INT ratio wasn't good. It's hard to throw touchdown passes on drives where you fumbled the ball away.

No they're not. I wasn't talking about one season I was talking about the entire span of years where Warner's totals were 27 TDs and 30 INTs.

What I was asking was if the gloves helped Warner have a better grip on the ball so he could throw it better. But even that doesn't make any sense because he didn't wear gloves while throwing 98 TD passes for the Rams from '99-2001.

 

[Totally_Red]

Personally, I believe Whis and Kurt were very good for each other. We can't forget that both had significant success before coming to the desert. It was a marriage that was good for both.

One other point-the personnel around Kurt was significantly upgraded IMO. Replacing Bryant Johnson with Steve Breaston was very important and even the Cardinals coaches admitted they didn't see that coming. And the offensive line was upgraded simply by playing together for awhile. The no-names that Denny Green had playing center were a joke.

A lot of things had to come together during the first three years of success under Whis.

Given a quarterback with potential, the Cardinal offense is redeemable IMO. Look, Whis has proven in my eyes with Big Ben and with Kurt, that he can use his quarterbacks to advantage and take his teams to post-season success. IMO, he just needs somebody on the level of, or with the potential of Rothlisberger or Warner, to develop. I'm all for drafting the QBOTF in the first round, if he's there. Successful teams have great quarterbacks. See New England and Indianapolis, probably the two most successful franchises of the last ten years.

 

[desertdawg]

IMO gloves are a mental fix. Just helps you believe.

 

[kerouac9]

No they're not. I wasn't talking about one season I was talking about the entire span of years where Warner's totals were 27 TDs and 30 INTs.

What I was asking was if the gloves helped Warner have a better grip on the ball so he could throw it better. But even that doesn't make any sense because he didn't wear gloves while throwing 98 TD passes for the Rams from '99-2001.

The story was that he suffered a hand injury his last season with the Rams or with the Giants that prevented him from holding the football. You could see it in the way that the ball wobbled out of his hand on virtually every pass.

Apparently, the gloves helped him get a better grip on the ball so that his release was much, much more smooth and the ball was delivered on more of a spiral.

 

[Spielman]

The story was that he suffered a hand injury his last season with the Rams or with the Giants that prevented him from holding the football. You could see it in the way that the ball wobbled out of his hand on virtually every pass.

Apparently, the gloves helped him get a better grip on the ball so that his release was much, much more smooth and the ball was delivered on more of a spiral.

Not a hand injury. He broke the pinky in 2000 and again in 2002, the base of the hand in 2002, and had a major thumb injury in 2001 that was exacerbated in the Super Bowl that year.

 

[Duckjake]

The story was that he suffered a hand injury his last season with the Rams or with the Giants that prevented him from holding the football. You could see it in the way that the ball wobbled out of his hand on virtually every pass.

Apparently, the gloves helped him get a better grip on the ball so that his release was much, much more smooth and the ball was delivered on more of a spiral.

That makes more sense but in 2005 Warner completed 65% of his passes and averaged 271.3 yards per game. Without gloves.

To me the real difference in Arizona is that when CKW arrived the Cards started winning the type games they were losing under Green.

 

[Spielman]

No they're not. I wasn't talking about one season I was talking about the entire span of years where Warner's totals were 27 TDs and 30 INTs.

What I was asking was if the gloves helped Warner have a better grip on the ball so he could throw it better. But even that doesn't make any sense because he didn't wear gloves while throwing 98 TD passes for the Rams from '99-2001.

That would be because he hadn't yet damaged his hand as badly as it was later. Two breaks in 2002, plus the thumb injury in the Super Bowl.

Anyway. You've convinced me to leave, permanently. Not worth it. Good luck with the rest of your season and franchise.

 

[kerouac9]

That makes more sense but in 2005 Warner completed 65% of his passes and averaged 271.3 yards per game. Without gloves.

To me the real difference in Arizona is that when CKW arrived the Cards started winning the type games they were losing under Green.

Yeah, but his YPA jumped from 7.2 to 8.2 from 2005 until 2006 and didn't fall back until 2009 (7.3), when he played the entire season with a shoulder injury.

When you throw the ball with a spiral, the ball flies straighter and with greater velocity. This leads to more accurate, deeper passes. Warner's lived on the deep in and post route his entire career, which you can't do if the ball doesn't get there very quickly--the zone defense usually has very small windows in there.

 

[Duckjake]

That would be because he hadn't yet damaged his hand as badly as it was later. Two breaks in 2002, plus the thumb injury in the Super Bowl.

Anyway. You've convinced me to leave, permanently. Not worth it. Good luck with the rest of your season and franchise.

 

[Spielman]

You stay classy there, Duckjake.

 

[desertdawg]

Anyway. You've convinced me to leave, permanently. Not worth it. Good luck with the rest of your season and franchise.

I dub thee Spielman-campos.

 

[Duckjake]

Yeah, but his YPA jumped from 7.2 to 8.2 from 2005 until 2006 and didn't fall back until 2009 (7.3), when he played the entire season with a shoulder injury.

When you throw the ball with a spiral, the ball flies straighter and with greater velocity. This leads to more accurate, deeper passes. Warner's lived on the deep in and post route his entire career, which you can't do if the ball doesn't get there very quickly--the zone defense usually has very small windows in there.

OK I can buy that. It could, at least in my mind, explain why, the Cards had the #1 ranked passing offense but struggled in the RedZone in 2005. Add in that when Haley showed up, and this was talked about a lot on TV Sunday, and helped Fitz become not just a great receiver but a disciplined great receiver who could get into those small windows.

So really neither Warner nor CKW made the other. They simply formed a combination that worked really well for 2.5 seasons.

 

[Duckjake]

You stay classy there, Duckjake.

I thought you were leaving permanently?

 

[NJCardFan]

BTW.. Whis was the Coordinator last year.. Haley was in KC and Warner still was putting up numbers and the Cards still went to the playoffs and still won a game in them.. Even though it was said the SuperBowl loser cant make the playoffs the next year much less win a game..

Unless you're in the NFC west.

 

[SeattleCard]

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