White and Clearing Cap Space

[George O'Brien]

To get cap space to bid on Kobe, the Suns would have to offload either White or Eisley. Eisley has a ridiculous contract and has two more years (he is probably worth no more than $1.5 million on the opent market). White is overpaid, but not as much and for only one more year.

It is generally assumed that the Suns would have to give a draft pick to get rid of his contract. Since he is thought to be highly overpaid, he could be replaced by a less expensive player.

However, I'm not sure White is as overpaid as some people seen to think. This year he is paid $5.3 million. He plays 14.9 minutes per game, 4.7 ppg, and grabs 4.6 rpg.

I compared this to some of the other backup centers in the NBA

Nazr Mohammed of the Hawks makes $5 million. He plays 17.9 minutes per game, scores 6.5 ppg, grabs 4.9 rpg.

Raef LaFrentz of the Celtics makes $8.2 million. He plays 19.3 minutes, scores 7.8 ppg and grabs 4.6 rpg.

Zeljko Rebraca of the Pistons makes $4.2 million. He plays 9.2 minutes scores 2.4 ppg and grabs 1.8 rpg.

Adonal Foyle of Golden State makes $4.4 million. He has been injured but his career numbers are 19.3 minutes, 4.7 ppg and 5.2 rpg.

Kevin Cato of Houston makes $7.3 million. He is having a great year, but his career numbers are not overwhelming: 19.9 minutes per game, 5.5 ppg and 5.4 rpg.

Scott Pollard of Indiana makes $5.3 million. He is having a terrible year, but his career statistics are: 18.2 minutes, 5.2 ppg, 5.3 rpg.

Certainly there are some guys with rookie contracts who are less expensive, but the fact is Jahidi White's statistics are not wildly out of line for the price. Nor is it self evident that what he does can be easily replaced by a substantially less expensive player.

I admit I am concerned about the Suns giving up a valuable draft pick to get rid of a player who is not wildly overpaid. Maybe it would work out, but it is not even all that likely that Kobe would come to the Suns even if they had the money.

 

[Dan H]

I'd much rather get rid of Eisley; White's contract is relatively short.

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by Dan H
I'd much rather get rid of Eisley; White's contract is relatively short.

The case for moving Eisely rather than White is overwhelming - IF IT CAN BE DONE. Not only do the Suns have the rights to sign Vujanic, but free agent backup point guards are not all that expensive. Competant backup centers are much harder to come by.

 

[hcsilla]

Originally posted by George O'Brien

However, I'm not sure White is as overpaid as some people seen to think. This year he is paid $5.3 million. He plays 14.9 minutes per game, 4.7 ppg, and grabs 4.6 rpg.

I compared this to some of the other backup centers in the NBA

Nazr Mohammed of the Hawks makes $5 million. He plays 17.9 minutes per game, scores 6.5 ppg, grabs 4.9 rpg.

Raef LaFrentz of the Celtics makes $8.2 million. He plays 19.3 minutes, scores 7.8 ppg and grabs 4.6 rpg.

Zeljko Rebraca of the Pistons makes $4.2 million. He plays 9.2 minutes scores 2.4 ppg and grabs 1.8 rpg.

Adonal Foyle of Golden State makes $4.4 million. He has been injured but his career numbers are 19.3 minutes, 4.7 ppg and 5.2 rpg.

Kevin Cato of Houston makes $7.3 million. He is having a great year, but his career numbers are not overwhelming: 19.9 minutes per game, 5.5 ppg and 5.4 rpg.

Scott Pollard of Indiana makes $5.3 million. He is having a terrible year, but his career statistics are: 18.2 minutes, 5.2 ppg, 5.3 rpg.

Certainly there are some guys with rookie contracts who are less expensive, but the fact is Jahidi White's statistics are not wildly out of line for the price. Nor is it self evident that what he does can be easily replaced by a substantially less expensive player.

You really like to play with stats.
You made a wonderful job picking up C's who are either injured or have a terrible season.

The summary of your post is: there are overpaid C's other than White as well.

 

[George O'Brien]

Re: Re: White and Clearing Cap Space

Originally posted by hcsilla
You really like to play with stats.
You made a wonderful job picking up C's who are either injured or have a terrible season.

The summary of your post is: there are overpaid C's other than White as well.

Actually my conclusion was that the price for veteran backup centers is around what White is getting. Maybe a little less, but not a huge amount less.

For Kobe fans, this might be very encouraging. This would mean that the Suns should be able to get the Bobcats to take White without having to offer more than the $3 million in cash. This would mean he would cost them only about $2.5 million next season on a one year contract. No draft picks should be necessary.

On the other hand, it opens up the question of how easily White could be replaced much less improved upon for the same or less money.

If I remember correctly, last summer there were three free agent centers moved under mid cap level: Eldon Campbell ($4 million), Michael Olowokandi ($4.9 million), and Predrag Drobnjak ($2.5 million).

Campbell is only six months younger than Scott Williams. He is playing 15.2 minutes, he is scoring 5.9 ppg and grabbing 3.4 rpg.

Olowokandi has been injured most of the year.

Drobnjak is playing 18.5 minutes and is scoring 7 ppg (but on 38.2% shooting) and is grabbing 4 rpg.

As inadequate as White is, I'm not convinced the Suns can expect to a great deal better under the mid cap. This is why I would much rather focus on moving Eisley even if it means giving up a lottery pick to do it.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

George, I think most people would prefer moving Eisley over White, the finances, team needs, everything points to it. I dont really see the need of bringing it up all the time

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by thegrahamcrackr
George, I think most people would prefer moving Eisley over White, the finances, team needs, everything points to it. I dont really see the need of bringing it up all the time

Most of the discussion about clearing cap space for Kobe involves moving White and often involves using draft picks to do it. Every time the term "whatever it takes" gets brought up, I have to figure it means moving White and giving up valuable draft picks.

I liked the way White played against the Wolves on Sunday. I honestly feel he has the potential to make the same kind of improvements we have seen by Voskuhl to become a solid backup center. I am very reluctant to give him away, much less pay for the privilege, unless there is a very very good chance of getting an elite player.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

Exactly. You only push off White if you have a strong feeling you will land Kobe. Otherwise it just doesn't make much sense.

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by thegrahamcrackr
Exactly. You only push off White if you have a strong feeling you will land Kobe. Otherwise it just doesn't make much sense.

By contrast, getting rid of Eisley would be huge. It would put the team in a position to go for Kobe this year and even more in 2005 if they re-sign White for less money.

I just wish Eisley didn't play so badly so it wouldn't be so expensive to unload him.

 

[Joe Mama]

How about that huge power dunk by Jahidi White in the second quarter? I didn't realize he could get off the ground like that.

Joe Mama

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by Joe Mama
How about that huge power dunk by Jahidi White in the second quarter? I didn't realize he could get off the ground like that.

Joe Mama

I have said all along that I think White is better than people give him credit for. He needs to lose weight and become quicker, but the guy beings a toughness the Suns don't usually have.

It is funny to see tough guys like Mark Madsen get pushed around and Oliver Miller seemed genuinely surprsied that someone would push HIM back.

 

[SunsTzu]

I think White's biggest problem is his hands not weight. If he could catch the ball better and not have to collect himself he'd get many more scoring chances. Also I disagree that he's making what quality back up centers make. I think Jake is making what a back up should make which is about 1/5 of what White makes and he's our starting center.

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by SunsTzu
I think White's biggest problem is his hands not weight. If he could catch the ball better and not have to collect himself he'd get many more scoring chances. Also I disagree that he's making what quality back up centers make.

A year ago Jake had hands of stone. I swear he dropped more rebounds than he caught. Jake still has problems with being stripped, but no where near the way he was before.

My impression is that White rarely had the ball thrown to him in Washington. So in spite of being a veteran, he is more like a rookie when it comes to doing more on offense than setting picks and getting offensive rebounds. In the past couple of games he showed some progress.

My concern with White is on defense. He needs to be able to get into position more quickly and better conditioning would help.

I think Jake is making what a back up should make which is about 1/5 of what White makes and he's our starting center.

Jake did not play especially well last season until the playoffs. He is still very limited on defense although his overall game has improved a lot. Last year Jake averaged 14.6 minutes per game, 3.8 ppg, and 3.5 rpg. This year he is averaging 24.3 minutes per game 6.5 ppg and 5.2 rpg. The ideal situation is to sign a guy before he gets good and maybe that's what the Suns did.

The question of what a veteran backup center SHOULD make and what they do make is different. If Jake's contract were coming up at the end of this season rather than last, I'm guessing he would get offers of over $4 million based on his current numbers.

 

[SunsTzu]

Jake didn't start playing well till 2nd half of last season, but it was clear he was a solid back-up. Jake naver had a problem catching good passes he's mishandled some catchable passes but thats about it. White's main problem IMO is his hands are pretty small for a guy his size and has a hard time catching hard passes even good ones, he also needs to gather himself before every shot attempt. I'm not saying he can't get somewhat better but he won't get much better IMO. I'd still rather trade Eisley but that seems very unlikely and i'd much rather have additional cap space than White.

 

[elindholm]

The other thing to remember is that White's contract goes only one more year, so if the Suns decide that he's an asset that they just can't do without, they'll have to address his departure in Summer 2005 anyway. I think it is very, very unlikely that the Suns would re-sign White, since he is incompatible with their youth movement and (as George O'Brien suggests) likely to command a fairly large salary anyway.

So ... deal with White's absence this summer, or deal with it the following summer. I'd rather deal with it now and get out from under his salary sooner rather than later, even if he does give the Suns something they'd otherwise lack.

 

[cly2tw]

George,

I agree with some of your analysis about White, but have problems with your focus of topics. Many agree on the following:

1. Cap room is valuable.
2. If we have a chance to sign Kobe, we should do everything possible to get the cap space to sign him.

For pt.2, almost nobody has any problem whether it's Marion, White, or Eisley whom we move to get the cap room. BTW, I have been a Kobe hater, and MJ hater for that matter, all my life. It's all about the Suns, not about us being Kobe fans!

For pt.1, if we want to win next season, then White is definitely a reasonably priced, serviceable center. In particular if we get Kobe, we'd want to compete immediately, we might not want to move him at all. If Marion improves his stats the rest of this season, we have good hope to move him for cap room in order to sign Kobe, and we should do it since we'd want JJ and Kobe to start at SF/SG. Anyway, we should not rush to move White at this point by giving picks away on the deal.

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by elindholm
The other thing to remember is that White's contract goes only one more year, so if the Suns decide that he's an asset that they just can't do without, they'll have to address his departure in Summer 2005 anyway. I think it is very, very unlikely that the Suns would re-sign White, since he is incompatible with their youth movement and (as George O'Brien suggests) likely to command a fairly large salary anyway.

So ... deal with White's absence this summer, or deal with it the following summer. I'd rather deal with it now and get out from under his salary sooner rather than later, even if he does give the Suns something they'd otherwise lack.

That's an interesting argument. As an old foggy, I have a hard time with the notion that White at the age of 28 is too old.

As it currently stands, I would not protect White from the expansion draft. But I would be very reluctant to give away draft picks to move him. I'd be more than willing to give picks including this year's NY pick to move Eisley.

In the summer of 2005 the Suns will have a much better idea as to whether Lampe will be a player than they will this summer. If he is, then the Suns may decide to only offer White a minimal contract (in the Voskuhl/Madsen range). But if Lampe is still a year or two away being a factor, then White might be worth a bit more.

Do you have someone in mind as a cheaper replacement for White? I'm not being snide. I may have missed someone.

One of the guys who is grossly underpaid is Stanislav Medvedenko of the Lakers at $1.5 million and will be a FA this summer. This season he is playing 25.6 minutes and scoring 11.4 ppg and grabbing 5.6 rpg. I can't say I care much for his defense, but he'd be worth considering if the Suns lose White and do not sign Kobe.
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BTW, our favorite Dallas Maverick Fortson, makes $5.2 million this year and $5.9 next year. He's playing 11.6 minutes and is scoring 3.8 ppg and grabbing 4.9 rpg.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

The general trend with big men is to overpay them. Sometimes it blows up. Fortson sat on GS's bench for a full season, and was virtually untradable largerly due to his contract. I do not think the suns should rush the gun on Camby or Dampier, and risk getting stuck in a similar situation.

The suns have not had any sort of flexibilty for years, all due to bad contracts they signed, 1 of which was rash. The last thing I think the organization needs is to overpay another player who has the large possibilty of not producing to their paycheck, or being injured year after year.



Out of curiosty, how well does Melvin Ely handle the 5 spot? I read that he was available, and if he could come rather cheap, it might work out for us.

 

[elindholm]

Do you have someone in mind as a cheaper replacement for White?

No. It would depend on how the market shakes out and whether the Suns use their FA money on a different player. Several threads ago, I came up with a list and you shot them all down. I don't think it would be constructive to repeat that exercise.

The Suns aren't going to compete for a title next year, probably even if they somehow get Bryant. So what's the big rush in bolstering the center rotation? A team can become quite good with no center at all -- heck, previous incarnations of the Suns have shown that just fine. Center is one need that the team needs to address sooner or later, but I don't see what the pressing concern is. There's plenty of time to see if Voskuhl or Lampe or Cabarkapa or a draft pick ends up surprising everyone and rising to the occasion.

Incidentally, it's not completely impossible that the Suns could re-sign White themselves. They work out a deal with Charlotte, Charlotte waives him, he clears waivers, and then the Suns offer him a deal better than any other competitor (but still less than his full salary, the remainder of which Charlotte pays). Unlikely, but not impossible.

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by elindholm

Incidentally, it's not completely impossible that the Suns could re-sign White themselves. They work out a deal with Charlotte, Charlotte waives him, he clears waivers, and then the Suns offer him a deal better than any other competitor (but still less than his full salary, the remainder of which Charlotte pays). Unlikely, but not impossible.

Where is Capologists? That is a GREAT idea. Give the Bobcats $3 million and the Suns re-sign him for $2 million or less if they would take a really distant draft pick. Is this really legal?

I still would like to find a way to move Eisley. I'm sure it would take a lottery pick to do it, but it would be worth it to get the cap flexiblity for two years.

 

[Goldfield]

Our team needs BIG's.

All big's are overpaid in the NBA.


I think White is a solid backup center. I would like him to lose 15-20lbs. But Little Jake has improved alot and maybe our coaches can get more out of White after he goes through an offseason with us.

If he got anybetter he would be a very solid center.

 

[Evil Ash]

Originally posted by George O'Brien
Where is Capologists? That is a GREAT idea. Give the Bobcats $3 million and the Suns re-sign him for $2 million or less if they would take a really distant draft pick. Is this really legal?

From the information that I have read about this would in fact be legal. After Jahidi cleared waivers from the Bobcats he becomes a Unrestricted FA ... so he could sign with anyone he wanted to.

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by BEERZ
Our team needs BIG's.

All big's are overpaid in the NBA.

I think White is a solid backup center. I would like him to lose 15-20lbs. But Little Jake has improved alot and maybe our coaches can get more out of White after he goes through an offseason with us.

If he got anybetter he would be a very solid center.

Actually the issue of "overpaid" is market driven. If the price of a 20 minute, 6 ppg, 5 rpg guy who can defend the low post is $5 million, then to pay $5 million is not to overpay.

If you pay a shooting guard like Allen Houston $15.9 million rising to $20.7 (which is more than T-Mac, Allen Houston, and Kobe); then yes he is overpaid.

Of course, timing is everything. Last summer the price of backup centers was down a bit compared to previous years: Eldon Cambell to the Pistons ($4 million), Predrag Drobnjak to the Clippers ($2.5 million), and Michael Olowokandi to the Wolves ($4.9 million). I'm not impressed with any of them. There are guys out there who make similar money that are more productive, but unfortunately they aren't free agents.

 

[elindholm]

From the information that I have read about this would in fact be legal.

The only catch is that it couldn't be prearranged. Someone else might claim White off waivers, or the Bobcats could change their mind about waiving him in the first place.

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by elindholm
From the information that I have read about this would in fact be legal.

The only catch is that it couldn't be prearranged. Someone else might claim White off waivers, or the Bobcats could change their mind about waiving him in the first place.

Pre-Arranged - sure. Contracutally enforceable? Probably not.