Whiz might be well intentioned but-----

[Catfish]

The bottom line is, that Whiz is the ONLY constant with having complete control of our offense (EXCEPT) for 2008, the year Haley and Warner took us deep into the Super Bowl Game. That said, I would still like to see at least one year where Whiz removes himself from control of the offense, and turn it over to a real offensive coordinator, just like he does with the defense and with special teams, (both of which are very successful). If, after that, we still suck as an offense, then I would bow out of my penchant for a change in that area. Until then however, I would still like to see the offense turned over to a 'qualified' OC like Haley, and have Whiz pretty much stay out of the scheme, the play calling, and the personnel selections. Barring that, I see little hope for real positive change in our offense anytime soon.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

The bottom line is, that Whiz is the ONLY constant with having complete control of our offense (EXCEPT) for 2008, the year Haley and Warner took us deep into the Super Bowl Game. That said, I would still like to see at least one year where Whiz removes himself from control of the offense, and turn it over to a real offensive coordinator, just like he does with the defense and with special teams, (both of which are very successful). If, after that, we still suck as an offense, then I would bow out of my penchant for a change in that area. Until then however, I would still like to see the offense turned over to a 'qualified' OC like Haley, and have Whiz pretty much stay out of the scheme, the play calling, and the personnel selections. Barring that, I see little hope for real positive change in our offense anytime soon.

Haley became a so-called "real" and "qualified" OC under Whiz's tutelage. A year of learning and then given full responsibility. There is nothing to say that Miller can't successfully go through the same process, which is presently in train.

 

[Cardiac]

When Warner checked out of a play it was still a play that Whiz had called in and was from the playbook. It's not like Warner would say "check check kill - switch to the play I drew up in the dirt in the huddle".

Every offense has a check to a run play or visa versa called in the huddle and the QB decides which play to run when he sees how the D is lined up when he gets under center or sets up in the shotgun.

Duckjake made a point I agree with in another thread: Whiz and staff are better at in game adjustments then pregame prep.

Thing is there are a lot of games where one team "wins" the first half and then the other team "wins" the 2nd half.

I don't buy into the theory that Whiz won the SB as an OC and got us to the SB while being a horrible play caller. Whiz has far too much success in this league for it all to be written off as luck or being carried by QB's and or other coaches on the team.

 

[Darkside]

I'm a big believer in Whisenhunt. What everyone else hates about him is what I like: The fact that he's calm and robotic to the public. I think he's a kick ass, fiery coach, behind the scenes, and all the players love him. You have to be calm and in control to come back from 1-6 and to me this is one of his best coaching jobs. I saw on ESPN they equated starting 1-6 in football the same as losing 60 straight games in baseball.

 

[Catfish]

I'm a big believer in Whisenhunt. What everyone else hates about him is what I like: The fact that he's calm and robotic to the public. I think he's a kick ass, fiery coach, behind the scenes, and all the players love him. You have to be calm and in control to come back from 1-6 and to me this is one of his best coaching jobs. I saw on ESPN they equated starting 1-6 in football the same as losing 60 straight games in baseball.

Darkside. I don't disagree with you about him being kick ass behind the scenes, or about the players loving to play for him. I have already gone on record about his unlikely, (nearly impossible), comeback from a 1-6 start. I still maintain that he is not as good a play caller as Haley, (who did it better) than Whiz at least in 2008, and probably in 2007 as well if the truth were known. I would still like to see him get out of the play calling for a year, and let a genuine offensive coordinator, (not someone who has his attention divided all over the place), call the plays, set the scheme, and select the personnel packages, just like our defensive coordinator does, and the special teams coach does. That could be Miller for all I know. I just want to see what would happen for one year.

Criminy, we have watched Whiz do this every year but one, and that one year just happens to be the most successful year we have had from a total win season. One thing that we just might see out of that, is a kinder gentler hand guiding the young QB's we have in this fold, who just might get a chance to learn and develop better and quicker than they have been able to under Whiz's direct control. At least we would find out if he is toxic to young QB's once and for all. We do not know that now, and unless he is taken out of the equation for a year, we may not ever find out if he is ruining young quarterbacks.

Remember, there was a reason that Pittsburgh passed on both him and Grimm for the head coaching job there. They have been proven to have made the right choice. Maybe they know something about Whiz and his calm, calculating, engineering intellect reasoning that is not well suited to the development of young wide eyed QB's. Maybe his demands for perfection are too great, too soon, and are not reasonable for young QB's. Not every head coach in this league is suited for play calling and developing young QB's. Maybe he is one of those types. Maybe Pittsburgh's organization knows that, and is why they passed on him. I don't know, and neither do you or anyone else. Logic would seem to indicate that the Cardinals might be better served trying that, before they go after yet another QBOF, only to have him also be relegated to the junk pile. I would think that 5 years is more than sufficient for him to have selected a QB of the future and to have coached him up. We seem no closer to a solution to that problem than we were day one when Whiz arrived, and in fact we may actually be farther than we were from it then.

 

[Darkside]

Some people use Warner as a crutch, some people use Haley. Nobody wants to admit Whis developed both dudes and took us to a SB on his own schemes; and frankly Haley is over-rated. He got totally jacked from KC where he, quite objectively and frankly, sucked. In 08, he's running an offense with Whis as coach, Warner as QB, Boldin and Fitz and Breaston and Edge. We still barely struck gold @ 9-7.

 

[Catfish]

Some people use Warner as a crutch, some people use Haley. Nobody wants to admit Whis developed both dudes and took us to a SB on his own schemes; and frankly Haley is over-rated. He got totally jacked from KC where he, quite objectively and frankly, sucked. In 08, he's running an offense with Whis as coach, Warner as QB, Boldin and Fitz and Breaston and Edge. We still barely struck gold @ 9-7.

There you guys go again with the 'barely winning 9-7 season in '08). If you care to check, our record was 12-8, not 9-7. After going 9-7 in the regular season we won 3 playoff games then lost the Superbowl. We also had the Superbowl all but put away, and probably would have done so with our current defense. Yes we had Warner, Boldin, and Fitz. We also had them in '09, but we didn't have Haley. We went 11-8 and won only one playoff game before losing to New Orleans. Our record was not as good as when Haley was here, yet our offensive line had one more year experience than in '08. Again, the only real difference was that Whiz called the plays again in '09 after Haley went to KC.

Also, so far a Haley being jacked from KC, many sources have said that Haley was NEVER the choice of the General Manager in KC and that he was a firing waiting to happen all along. Many sportswriters considered him simply an interim HC until a good choice came along for the GM.

 

[Shane]

Also, so far a Haley being jacked from KC, many sources have said that Haley was NEVER the choice of the General Manager in KC and that he was a firing waiting to happen all along. Many sportswriters considered him simply an interim HC until a good choice came along for the GM.

What reports? Could you link them please?

 

[Catfish]

What reports? Could you link them please?

Saw it last week on a couple of the NFL programs where the the talking heads discuss different coaching changes, and where they believe prospective coaches might be going at this time. I can't be sure of the programs, but they like Inside The NFL, or NFL Live, etc. There were a number of former coaches, commentators, and network moderators all over the networks talking about coaching changes, and a couple of them discussed the KC situation. One of those programs was looking at whether a coach was leaning in or leaning out, (as to whether or not they would be retained). Romeo Crenell was being discussed for the KC job. I can't particularly recall the other one, but one program indicated that Haley was the owner's choice, and the other said that Haley was not the GM's choice. Jesus Shane, is that all you have to contribute? Just sit back and question the veracity of a person's comments. Why don't you put an opinion out there once in a while? I told you before, I am not a reporter. I hear things, or see things, I discuss them. I form opinions, I discuss them too. This is a discussion forum not a video or print media that needs to be fact checked. Is that the way you can get nearly 40K posts in 10 years-----just post one liners questioning everyone else. Sheesh !!

 

[Duckjake]

There you guys go again with the 'barely winning 9-7 season in '08). If you care to check, our record was 12-8, not 9-7. After going 9-7 in the regular season we won 3 playoff games then lost the Superbowl. We also had the Superbowl all but put away, and probably would have done so with our current defense. Yes we had Warner, Boldin, and Fitz. We also had them in '09, but we didn't have Haley. We went 11-8 and won only one playoff game before losing to New Orleans. Our record was not as good as when Haley was here, yet our offensive line had one more year experience than in '08. Again, the only real difference was that Whiz called the plays again in '09 after Haley went to KC.

Also, so far a Haley being jacked from KC, many sources have said that Haley was NEVER the choice of the General Manager in KC and that he was a firing waiting to happen all along. Many sportswriters considered him simply an interim HC until a good choice came along for the GM.

Catfish, your 2009 numbers are off. 11-7 not 11-8.

The 2009 team was as good or better than the 2008 team. The Defense was much better and they didn't take a month's vacation once they won the West. They just ran into a hot New Orleans team on the road. As in 2008 it took the Super Bowl Champion to beat them.

Also they were really 11-6. The week 17 game vs Green Bay was just an exhibition game for Arizona.

 

[Duckjake]

I would think that 5 years is more than sufficient for him to have selected a QB of the future and to have coached him up. We seem no closer to a solution to that problem than we were day one when Whiz arrived, and in fact we may actually be farther than we were from it then.

Very good point. And, as I've written before, mainly the result of Matt Leinart washing out. It was a tough situation with the Cards having just selected Matt in the first round, a very high profile personality, and then changing coaches the next season. No way Arizona was going to let CKW dump Leinart and bring in his own QB in 2007. Then Warner got hot which put off even longer Whisenhunt being able to get his own guy as there really weren't any decent QBs available where the Cards were drafting. So the Cards have been forced to take leftovers to play QB.

Could CKW have made better selections of the castoffs? We can debate that forever but the castoffs he's brought in have been just awful so....

The Cards are paying the high price associated with having a first round QB bust. It could be years before Arizona has a real franchise QB.

 

[LarryStalling]

In my dymentia filled mind, I remember how we all moaned and groaned about Whiz's play calling and then rightfully rejoiced when he relinquished control to Haley. That was like a breath of fresh air. Now back to this drudgery.
Now if I just understood why the offensive line play was so BAD. What if any correlation does offensive line blocking scheme have to do with the offensive game plan scheme. Or maybe that statement should be vice versa.

 

[Russ Smith]

There you guys go again with the 'barely winning 9-7 season in '08). If you care to check, our record was 12-8, not 9-7. After going 9-7 in the regular season we won 3 playoff games then lost the Superbowl. We also had the Superbowl all but put away, and probably would have done so with our current defense. Yes we had Warner, Boldin, and Fitz. We also had them in '09, but we didn't have Haley. We went 11-8 and won only one playoff game before losing to New Orleans. Our record was not as good as when Haley was here, yet our offensive line had one more year experience than in '08. Again, the only real difference was that Whiz called the plays again in '09 after Haley went to KC.

Also, so far a Haley being jacked from KC, many sources have said that Haley was NEVER the choice of the General Manager in KC and that he was a firing waiting to happen all along. Many sportswriters considered him simply an interim HC until a good choice came along for the GM.

That Super Bowl run wasn't Haley it was Warner, that team scored 427 points on the season and allowed 426, the next years team was a better team, but we weren't red hot at the right time and we lost to the team that was, New Orleans.

The offense averaged about 3 PPG less, the main difference was Warner wasn't quite as amazing.

The team the year before Haley scored 404 points and Warner only started 11 games, that offense was actually better(regular season) it just took Kurt awhile to get rolling.

What we saw the year Haley was the OC was the extension of the prior year the team averaged just under 31 PPG the last 8 games of the prior year. Then averaged about 27PPG the following year with Haley as the OC.

 

[Darkside]

Coaches always get excessive blame when they lose, perhaps rightly so, and limited credit when they do well. They certainly get all the blame when it comes to hiring (or retaining) bad coordinators and assistants and little credit for hiring dudes like Horton (or retaining a badass like Kevin Spencer, for example). Or he gets blamed for not sticking with a guy like Leinart, but given no credit for promoting Kurt and orchestrating a SB run. And that's cool, I'm sure Whis knows it comes with the territory. Besides, it's not like Whis forced Haley from the building: Haley had coaching options, and Whis was a true friend and mentor to encourage him in exploring those options. It's not easy when you're the head guy wanting everyone to succeed, because you're going to take a lot of flak and turn over a lot of personnel (coaches and players).

In the end, it's about winning, and we haven't done a lot of that the last couple of years. I've no problem heaping some blame on Whis, the only difference is I also heap on the praise when we do well or have done well.

 

[Shane]

In the end, it's about winning, and we haven't done a lot of that the last couple of years. I've no problem heaping some blame on Whis, the only difference is I also heap on the praise when we do well or have done well.

We win today and this organization has been involved in one losing season in 5 years under Whiz. Seems kind of like an over exaggeration to me.

 

[Darkside]

I don't think it's an over-exaggeration. Look, I like to think I'm the hugest Whis supporter there is, but saying we have one losing season in 5 years is something that sounds good when you're trying to save a head coaches job. Fact of the matter is over the last two years we're 12-19. That doesn't instill confidence and I can understand and accept people's frustration. I still think Whis is a great coach, and like I said in another post, on ESPN they equated starting 1-6 in football to starting with 60 straight losses in baseball. It takes a leader with a solid mind and character to come back from that and I think we're headed in the right direction. That being said, I totally get why people would be frustrated beyond belief. This team has lived in the pits of hell so long, as fans, players and coaches, that when we see any slippage, any step back, we totally over-react because we can remember where we came from and we don't want to go back. Ever.

 

[Stout]

We win today and this organization has been involved in one losing season in 5 years under Whiz. Seems kind of like an over exaggeration to me.

I thought of this when we won in overtime. I am thrilled at this record, and our comeback 2nd half of the season really gives me hope moving forward. Heck, I was so confident that we'd win in overtime that I WANTED us to lose the toss. Why? I wanted Peterson to get one more shot at the solo record. He almost broke it in regulation...oh so close!

 

[PACardsFan]

Very good point. And, as I've written before, mainly the result of Matt Leinart washing out. It was a tough situation with the Cards having just selected Matt in the first round, a very high profile personality, and then changing coaches the next season. No way Arizona was going to let CKW dump Leinart and bring in his own QB in 2007. Then Warner got hot which put off even longer Whisenhunt being able to get his own guy as there really weren't any decent QBs available where the Cards were drafting. So the Cards have been forced to take leftovers to play QB.

Could CKW have made better selections of the castoffs? We can debate that forever but the castoffs he's brought in have been just awful so....

The Cards are paying the high price associated with having a first round QB bust. It could be years before Arizona has a real franchise QB.

DJ, I agree 100% with your post. Until we get a great QB, we'll never reach the 10-12 win range. I honestly believe that Whiz is a phenomenal HC, but we'll never see his full potential until we have a great QB.

 

[Duckjake]

I thought of this when we won in overtime. I am thrilled at this record, and our comeback 2nd half of the season really gives me hope moving forward. Heck, I was so confident that we'd win in overtime that I WANTED us to lose the toss. Why? I wanted Peterson to get one more shot at the solo record. He almost broke it in regulation...oh so close!

On the other hand the team has been involved in only 2 winning seasons in 5 years and are 13-19 combined the last two. Not exactly Steelers West. But...My biggest criticism of Whisenhunt has been his failure to put a decent defense on the field. Looks like that is no longer a valid criticism thanks to Sackin' Sam Acho.

Anyone notice how weak the D looked while Bradley was in for Acho?

 

[MrYeahBut]

DJ, I agree 100% with your post. Until we get a great QB, we'll never reach the 10-12 win range. I honestly believe that Whiz is a phenomenal HC, but we'll never see his full potential until we have a great QB.

That's part of being a Cards fan... we've been horrendously bad, but never quite bad enough to be in position to draft a franchise QB.

 

[Shane]

That's part of being a Cards fan... we've been horrendously bad, but never quite bad enough to be in position to draft a franchise QB.

Yes we were. Matt Leinart.. Considered the most nfl ready QB to come out in a decade. Yet he sucks too.