Whose ball?

[Alan]

I haven't seen/heard the answer to this question. If the ref did call a 15 yard facemask on Adams, who would have had the ball? Would the Cardinals have it at the spot of the recovery, minus 15 yards. Or would the Packers have gotten a first down?

 

[SoCal Cardfan]

I haven't heard a definitive answer on this.. By looking at pictures, I say Packers get the ball as the pics pretty clearly show the ball up for grabs still, when Adams has hold of the facemask.

 

[WarnerHOF]

Facemask was accidental with no twisting or yanking. No foul.

 

[Unsterblich856]

If the ref flagged the facemask, it would be Arizona ball at the Packers mid-30. No matter what play you dig out of the rule book, it would be Arizona ball.

 

[Evil Ash]

I haven't heard a definitive answer on this.. By looking at pictures, I say Packers get the ball as the pics pretty clearly show the ball up for grabs still, when Adams has hold of the facemask.

I believe this is correct. If Dansby had gotten the ball before the facemask occurred then it would be considered a post-possession foul and therefore its the Cardinals ball.

Since it was still up in the air then it would still be the Packers ball

 

[Osbern61]

It's a shame that Adams grabbed the face mask as it didn't have an impact on the play itself; the ball was coming out either way. But no flag, no foul.

 

[BurqueCardFan]

Correct me if I'm wrong but did'nt the same thing happen to Warner on the diving Fitz TD. While watching replays at the bar, I thought I saw Warner take a shot to the face mask on that play in the same manner. Of course the was no flag. To me, it's a no call in both cases.

 

[Fitz Rulz]

Prior to the 2008 season, a rule change was approved that eliminated the foul for the incidental grasp of the facemask.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

To me it would have been GB ball. Just because the ball was gone first shouldn't make a difference. What if Rodgers had thrown it downfield and been picked but the Cards got called for roughing the passer. It would have negated the pick and GB would have gotten 15 yards and a 1st down. That seems to be a pretty similar situation.

 

[RON_IN_OC]

How about this: Forgetting the face-mask no call...What if the ball doesn't hit Rodgers foot???? It would have hit the ground and been an incomplete pass, as his arm appeared to be going forward. Personally, I think this should be changed from a fumble to an interception by Dansby. Doesn't mean much in the grand scheme, I know, but I think it sounds better.

 

[Redheart]

It was ruled a fumble.

Rogers / GB had already lost posession; neither team had established possession at the time of facemask-touching.

IFF the facemask had been a foul, (it was ruled incidental; reviewed and confirmed), it occured while neither team had possession; I think the penalty (if one happend) would have applied after possession had been established. Note; the penalty would not establish possession because it occured after the ball was lost.

Good thread.

 

[Zeno]

With all the bitching we've seen and heard about the "facemask" I am surprised there has been little talk of Fitz absolutely knocking Woodson on his ass to get open for a TD. That was the one instance where I truly felt we got away with something...but the Packers got away with some blatant tackles...err holding...by their OL multiple times.

 

[earthsci]

As others have pointed out, I don't think that it was a penalty (no twisting, incidental) but had it been it would have been Green Bay's ball. Think of it this way...if the ball had been knocked around and gone out of bounds, whose ball would it have been? Green Bay's. The incident happened before we established possession.

 

[MigratingOsprey]

I actually haven't heard too much complaining about that call - most packer fans I've talked to are disapointed with the missed FG by crosby, not leaving enough time to go for a TD in the 1st half and then just missing jennings on the first play in OT

as far as the question - it would of been GBs ball

as covered above if the cardinals didn't "turn" possession before the fould occured the penalty would of been while GB was still in control of the ball (even if it was in the process of changing) and they would retain the ball

looks like the ball was going off his foot when adams had his hand wrapped in rodgers face mask so it's pretty clear possession hadn't turned yet

i think they write it this way because a penalty can either lead to a turnover or affect the outcome of the turnover

for example, keeping it a facemask, imagine a qb is being pressured, drops the ball and a defender reaches out, grabs the facemask and pulls the qb away from the ball allowing another defender to scoop it up .... not saying that happened here, but it's that kind of thing that makes the rule the way it is

 

[Redheart]

... Think of it this way...if the ball had been knocked around and gone out of bounds, whose ball would it have been? Green Bay's. The incident happened before we established possession.

The have a rule that says if the ball is loose AND knocked out of play the team that previously had possession gets it back.

The incident happened while niether team had established possession AND the ball was still in play.

Penalties do not establish possession of loose balls in play; they contribute to the spot of the ball after possesion is established.

 

[ajcardfan]

It was ruled a fumble, was actually an interception, and the penalty, if you think there was one, was prepossesion. I'm sure it would've been Packers ball. Good thing it wasn't reviewed, because penalties CAN be called on review that were not called during the play.

I know this because it once happened to the Cardinals in Philadelphia. The ONLY time I've seen a team get a flag during a review. It was to review a touchdown the ref wound up flagging us for offensive pass interference.


Frankly, we DID catch a break on the play IMO. And, we caught a break on the play that was called holding because Berry did hit Rodgers' helmet with his helmet. That should of been an offset.

Every team that makes the Super Bowl catches some breaks like these, so I hope it's a good sign.

 

[earthsci]

The incident happened while niether team had established possession AND the ball was still in play.

Penalties do not establish possession of loose balls in play; they contribute to the spot of the ball after possesion is established.

Green Bay was on offense until Dansby established control. Whether they had possession of the ball doesn't matter. What matters is which team is considered offense and which is defense. Until we establish control of the ball, we are on defense. The incident in question occurred before we established control so if a penalty had been called, it would have been called against the defense. Green Bay would have retained possession.

 

[Doug]

I think the tuck rule would have entered the picture on review.Personally I don't care since its all wasted worry and in the past along with a million other team losers excuses that help them sleep at night.

Its turning into team motivation for the CARDINALS going into the saints game.The team used the packers qb putting on a championship belt for motivation.they even had it on video in the lockeroom.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

I'm pretty sure that we will get the full explanation from Mike P, the referee in chief, on the NFL Network this week.

 

[Russ Smith]

I think the tuck rule would have entered the picture on review.Personally I don't care since its all wasted worry and in the past along with a million other team losers excuses that help them sleep at night.

Its turning into team motivation for the CARDINALS going into the saints game.The team used the packers qb putting on a championship belt for motivation.they even had it on video in the lockeroom.

The tuck rule only applies if the ball hit the ground. That's why we're lucky Rodgers kicked it, if that ball had hit the ground they probably would have ruled it an incomplete pass and might have seen the facemask too. But he kicked it, Dansby caught it and all the refs were watching the ball and missed the grab.

 

[Catfish]

It was ruled a fumble.

Rogers / GB had already lost posession; neither team had established possession at the time of facemask-touching.

IFF the facemask had been a foul, (it was ruled incidental; reviewed and confirmed), it occured while neither team had possession; I think the penalty (if one happend) would have applied after possession had been established. Note; the penalty would not establish possession because it occured after the ball was lost.

Good thread.

Great job Red Heart-----that is a really good explanation of this play. My hat's off to you sir.

 

[earthsci]

Great job Red Heart-----that is a really good explanation of this play. My hat's off to you sir.

Except that if he's saying that we would have possession, he's wrong.

 

[Spielman]

How about this: Forgetting the face-mask no call...What if the ball doesn't hit Rodgers foot???? It would have hit the ground and been an incomplete pass, as his arm appeared to be going forward. Personally, I think this should be changed from a fumble to an interception by Dansby. Doesn't mean much in the grand scheme, I know, but I think it sounds better.

Then the Packers punt on 4th down, and Warner throws 6 TD passes instead of 5.

 

[earthsci]

Then, it would be a tough call as to whether or not the foul occurred before or after the Cardinals gained possession. If it happened after the possession change, the Cardinals would have gotten the turnover and had to score with their offense. If it was determined the foul happened before the Cards gained possession, the Packers would have retained the football and been awarded 15 yards and a first down (they call this the "clean hands" stipulation, meaning you can't get the ball on a change of possession unless you haven't committed a penalty. If you had committed a penalty, you didn't get the ball with clean hands).

Source - http://nfl.fanhouse.com/2010/01/10/packers-cardinals-game-ends-in-officiating-controversy/

IF a penalty had been called as a result of what Adams did it would have been before possession. Green Bay's ball.

 

[ARZCardinals]

The rule would have been

Facemasking 15 yard penalty, but because the ball was already loose there would be a loss of posession. the Cardinals would have taken over at the 30 yard line. Because the ball did not hit the ground it IS a turnover and the Cardinals would be on offense.