Whose ball?

[Cbus cardsfan]

The rule would have been

Facemasking 15 yard penalty, but because the ball was already loose there would be a loss of posession. the Cardinals would have taken over at the 30 yard line. Because the ball did not hit the ground it IS a turnover and the Cardinals would be on offense.

that can't be right. Like i used in my example. Let's say Rodgers throws the ball downfield,just after his release Campbell buries him, flag is thrown for roughing the passer, facemask, whatever, DRC picks off the pass. The Cards don't get the ball just because Rodgers had already released it and it never hit the ground. The Cards have to have possesion BEFORE the penalty for them to keep the ball.

 

[MigratingOsprey]

The rule would have been

Facemasking 15 yard penalty, but because the ball was already loose there would be a loss of posession. the Cardinals would have taken over at the 30 yard line. Because the ball did not hit the ground it IS a turnover and the Cardinals would be on offense.

not true at all

the ball has to of changed handed - possession must be gained by the opposing team prior to any foul

think of it like this:

on a fumble you have the ball dropped so it's loose - a penalty is committed while the ball is loose, the defender grabs the face mask of an offensive player pulling them away from the loose ball .... defense recovers - it will go back to the offense as the penalty was before the change in possession

pass is thrown - while ball is in the air there is a defensive holding call - ball is then intercepted - the interception is waived off and the offense retains the ball

 

[MigratingOsprey]

that can't be right. Like i used in my example. Let's say Rodgers throws the ball downfield,just after his release Campbell buries him, flag is thrown for roughing the passer, facemask, whatever, DRC picks off the pass. The Cards don't get the ball just because Rodgers had already released it and it never hit the ground. The Cards have to have possesion BEFORE the penalty for them to keep the ball.

yep - this is part of the reason why refs are very clear for announcing things like "during the return" or "after the ball was recovered"

think of it like a punt as well - if you rough the punter after he kicks the ball but before the ball is caught then they access the penalty and the offense keeps the ball

however, if the punt goes off, is caught by the receiving team and then during the return someone gets tagged with a personal foul for roughing the punter they just walk off the yardage and the return team keeps it

 

[earthsci]

The rule would have been

Facemasking 15 yard penalty, but because the ball was already loose there would be a loss of posession. the Cardinals would have taken over at the 30 yard line. Because the ball did not hit the ground it IS a turnover and the Cardinals would be on offense.

No. If a penalty was called (the penalty occurred before we got possession of the ball) we wouldn't have recovered the ball with "clean hands", therefore it would have been Green Bay's ball.

 

[TheHopToad]

Here is the explanation from the NFL as to why this was not a penalty. It doesn't solve the "what if" scenario we're discussing in this thread, but just that the NFL says it was called correctly.

http://espn.go.com/blog/nfcnorth/post/_/id/8759/nfl-offers-context-of-face-mask-ruling

As for the application of the ruling, here's what our friend Peter King said in his Monday Morning QB article:

Three rules/officiating points from a crazy day.​

1. Regarding the non-facemask call on the last play of Arizona-Green Bay: I've watched the TiVoed combination of replays six times now. Arizona's Michael Adams blitzes, dislodges the ball from Green Bay quarterback Aaron Rodgers, rakes his hands over the facemask of Rodgers, then appears to grab the facemask, and the ball is inadvertently kicked by Rodgers. ​

The ball flies briefly into the air and is grabbed by Arizona linebacker Karlos Dansby, who secures it and runs into the end zone for the winning touchdown. Adams keeps his hands on the mask as he plows into Rodgers and brings him to the ground. Adams didn't tackle him by the mask, but his hand did stay secured on the mask as Rodgers fell to the ground. (I say it that way because from the mountain of e-mails and Tweets last night, most of you think he got yanked to the ground by the facemask. It didn't appear that way to me.) ​

For a facemask penalty to be called, there has to be evidence not just of a hand on the mask, but of twisting and pulling of the facemask. And there is a slight pulling of it, but not in a flagrant way. To me, it's a close call. But what complicates matters is this: The referee, Scott Green, is the official on the crew with the responsibility of watching plays involving the quarterback. Once the ball has been dislodged, Green has to watch the ball, not the contact on the quarterback. He has to see if the ball hits the ground and judge if it's a forward pass or a fumble, then he has to follow the live ball until the end of the play. So Green could not -- at least, he should not -- have seen the contact on the mask of Rodgers. Of course, the reason this is a big concern is if a facemask had been called, Green Bay would have had a first down at its 32 in a game where defense was optional. I don't see how the call could have been made any differently with the current rules and officiating assignments the way they are.​

2. Re the non-tuck-rule call on the last play of Arizona-Green Bay: the ball, once it somehow became dislodged from Rodgers, never hit the ground. If the ball doesn't hit the ground, it's live, and the tuck rule doesn't apply.​

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/peter_king/01/10/mmqb/index.html​

Say what you want about King, but he knows the rules and has direct access to the officials to clarify.​

 

[Osbern61]

If Rodgers had kicked the ball intentionally(open for debate) wouldn't that be a penalty as well?

 

[Buckybird]

not true at all

the ball has to of changed handed - possession must be gained by the opposing team prior to any foul

think of it like this:

on a fumble you have the ball dropped so it's loose - a penalty is committed while the ball is loose, the defender grabs the face mask of an offensive player pulling them away from the loose ball .... defense recovers - it will go back to the offense as the penalty was before the change in possession

pass is thrown - while ball is in the air there is a defensive holding call - ball is then intercepted - the interception is waived off and the offense retains the ball

I agree. we are so fortunate because if Dansby wouldn't have caught the ball in the air, I think the dreaded 'tuck rule" would have been applied. That rule is complete BS, another rule to cover up for referee blunders.

 

[Buckybird]

With all the bitching we've seen and heard about the "facemask" I am surprised there has been little talk of Fitz absolutely knocking Woodson on his ass to get open for a TD. That was the one instance where I truly felt we got away with something...but the Packers got away with some blatant tackles...err holding...by their OL multiple times.

How about the blatant offensive PI on Finley where he manhandled McFadden for the ball & they call PI on us.

 

[Doc Cardinal]

How about the phantom horse collar call on us?

The refs sucked.....but they sucked evenly for both teams.

 

[LVG]

How about the phantom horse collar call on us?

The refs sucked.....but they sucked evenly for both teams.

+1

Refs missed calls on both teams. Game is in the book. Case closed. Onto the Saints!

And, I just ordered the Official Rulebook - so I'll look it up for myself, since there's so many different things being said out there.

 

[TheHopToad]

And, I just ordered the Official Rulebook - so I'll look it up for myself, since there's so many different things being said out there.

http://www.fantasytailgate.com/nfl_rules.pdf

Page 81. Rule 12, Section 2, Article 5

 

[earthsci]

http://www.fantasytailgate.com/nfl_rules.pdf

Page 81. Rule 12, Section 2, Article 5

That addresses what a facemask is. The OP's question concerns what would have happened if a facemask was called.

You must have "clean hands" to gain possession.

 

[TheHopToad]

That addresses what a facemask is.

Correct. Above post was just to provide link to current official rule book as referenced in the previous post.

The OP's question concerns what would have happened if a facemask was called.

Correct. Already addressed here:

http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/vb/showpost.php?p=2161673&postcount=30