Why Antrelle Rolle at #8 makes me nervous

[kerouac9]

I don't know how often y'all watched Miami games last season, but since Shaun Taylor left, Rolle has not been a "cover" cornerback. He was used as a kind of rover/strong safety almost all of the 2004 season. He played up close to the line, blizted a lot, and was used in run support quite a bit. That's all well and good, but what he didn't do a lot of last season was cover wide receivers out in pass patterns.

That's what you want your NFL cornerback to do. Adam Jones is a pure cover corner. He's tough and willing in run support, despite his lack of ideal size. Carlos Rogers has great size, can play out on an island (though not as well as Jones), and is equally willing to force the run game.

If you want a pure cover corner, you should be cheering for the Cards to take Jones. If you want the Cards to get more of a do-it-all cornerback, then look for Rogers. I'm just not sure what the argument is for Rolle. What I see are these things:

1. He went to Miami. Well so did Mike Rumph and Phillip Buchannon, and neither of them have become Pro Bowl cornerbacks.
2. He has great size/speed. All well and good, but how does that function when he's out on an island? It's hard to say, because he hasn't been on that island in a while. Football players are more than 40 times and yardsticks.

 

[cardsfaithful22]

I like it!!!


Pac Man will bring a lot to this team, he is a true cover corner and can support the run aswell, he can handle some of our return duties also

The only thing Rolle has over Pac Man is size ,some say Rolle is better suited as an NFL safety anyways...although I favor Pac Man over Rolle and Rodgers I would mind which one we picked up in the first round it is all for the better of the team

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Agreed.



We are trading out of the 8th spot.


We are going to have a great draft you watch.

 

[CardinalChris]

Unsubstantiated rumor says if the Henry trade dumps, Shelton to Miami to swap firsts.....

 

[BACH]

I don't know how often y'all watched Miami games last season, but since Shaun Taylor left, Rolle has not been a "cover" cornerback. He was used as a kind of rover/strong safety almost all of the 2004 season. He played up close to the line, blizted a lot, and was used in run support quite a bit. That's all well and good, but what he didn't do a lot of last season was cover wide receivers out in pass patterns.

That's what you want your NFL cornerback to do. Adam Jones is a pure cover corner. He's tough and willing in run support, despite his lack of ideal size. Carlos Rogers has great size, can play out on an island (though not as well as Jones), and is equally willing to force the run game.

If you want a pure cover corner, you should be cheering for the Cards to take Jones. If you want the Cards to get more of a do-it-all cornerback, then look for Rogers. I'm just not sure what the argument is for Rolle.

Well, I agree that Rolle isn't a true cover corner, but overall I disagree. We don't need a cover corner. We play a Cover 2 Defense and Rolle is an excellent fit for that.

I would take Rolle over Pac-Man anytime. Pac-man is a work-out warrior, where Rolle holds his high draft status due to production on the field. (Not staying Pac-Man didn't produce, but that he's rising because of his work-out numbers)

 

[JeffGollin]

Negatives on PacMan from CBSportsline:
"Wants to make the play vs. the run, but because of size and lack of bulk, is only effective doing this on the perimeter (gets engulfed when working in-line) … Must show better hand technique in attempts to shed and disengage at the point of attack … Good at reading the quarterback, but will sometimes peek into the backfield too long, taking him out of position … Susceptible to play action and fakes … Makes plays in front of him, but is still learning to adjust and pattern read when working in zone coverage."

Scored a whopping 13 on his Wunderlic.

I'd rather have a bigger, almost-as-fast corner who can cover nearly as well as PacMan and can also be a force against the run or outlet passes.

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

Well, I agree that Rolle isn't a true cover corner, but overall I disagree. We don't need a cover corner. We play a Cover 2 Defense and Rolle is an excellent fit for that.

I would take Rolle over Pac-Man anytime. Pac-man is a work-out warrior, where Rolle holds his high draft status due to production on the field. (Not staying Pac-Man didn't produce, but that he's rising because of his work-out numbers)

I dont think thats a fair assesment. PacMan has moved up true, but not from nowhere. After the season he was still considered a top 15-20 pick and once he declared he started moving up the board. His rise up into the top 10 came PRIOR to his college pro day which just happened a few weeks back.

He is a very productive CB having lead the team in tackles. Loves to come up in runsupport and is fast enough to track RB's down from sideline to sideline. He is slight so the report Jeff put up aboput getting "lost inside" is true, but that can be said about many cb's. Think Fred Smoot or Antoine Winfield can come up and not get swallowed up by a FB or Tackle? Doesnt mean they arent very good cover guys.

Secondly, PacMan is a great Pr/KR who averaged 24 yards per return on Kickoffs and 15 yards per return on punts. He is a playmaker!

I think Rolle is a fine player, but he is not a cover cb. He is more of a SS playing cb and that is NOT what this team needs. I would take both Rodgers and Jones over Rolle at #8

 

[Russ Smith]

ANY rookie CB makes me nervous because odds are he's going to be starting with our current lack of CB depth.

Larry Fitzgerald had an outstanding rookie year in '04 but we all commented repeatedly about his inability to "separate" from NFL Cb's, partly the ankle, partly he's just not all that explosive.

In 2003 Fitzgerald and Pacman Jones went head to head, for about 1 half if you listen to Fitz, and Fitz put up 9 catches 185 yards and 2 TD's. In the FIRST QUARTER, Fitz had 4 catches for 90 yards and 2 TD's. WVU eventually figured out playing him man to man wasn't very smart and they started giving Jones help but you see the point. A WR who had trouble getting separation in the NFL just completely SCHOOLED Pac Man not that long ago.

Sure Jones is a better player now but look at the WVU schedule and tell me who he's covered this year that proves he's a cover CB?

Not that our defense typically requires CB's to play man to man alot, but that's yet another strike against Pac Man he typically does play man and we seem to prefer to play zone which is something Rolle is much more familiar with.

 

[Poorknight1]

Though I have flip flopped a lot on the subject...I firmly believe that if it comes down to Rolle or Jones you take Rolle. A lot of what was said makes sense and while I still don't believe that Rolle has the best ball skills he is the better defender of the two regardless of where he's lined up. Is he a shut down corner? Nah...but then again who is these days? Don't say Champ Bailey because he got worked his fair share last year. Do I think the Rolle has much more potential to disrupt an offense. Absolutely.

We just need to look elsewhere for a return man. Possibly a day 2 guy like the dude from Hampton.


PK1

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

ANY rookie CB makes me nervous because odds are he's going to be starting with our current lack of CB depth.

Larry Fitzgerald had an outstanding rookie year in '04 but we all commented repeatedly about his inability to "separate" from NFL Cb's, partly the ankle, partly he's just not all that explosive.

In 2003 Fitzgerald and Pacman Jones went head to head, for about 1 half if you listen to Fitz, and Fitz put up 9 catches 185 yards and 2 TD's. In the FIRST QUARTER, Fitz had 4 catches for 90 yards and 2 TD's. WVU eventually figured out playing him man to man wasn't very smart and they started giving Jones help but you see the point. A WR who had trouble getting separation in the NFL just completely SCHOOLED Pac Man not that long ago.

Sure Jones is a better player now but look at the WVU schedule and tell me who he's covered this year that proves he's a cover CB?

Not that our defense typically requires CB's to play man to man alot, but that's yet another strike against Pac Man he typically does play man and we seem to prefer to play zone which is something Rolle is much more familiar with.

First off, Fitzgerald was a beast in college and any CB that went up against him got smoked. He was never shut down by any CB including Rolle for that matter. That isnt a fair comparison. All Fitz did that day was out jump him since he had 6 inches of height on him. It had absolutly nothing to do with seperation. None . zilch. nada.

There are definate downsides to Jones . His size isnt great and he certaily takes too many chances to make the big play. However, he is so fluid in coverage and so fast he can run with anyone in the league. Something Rolle just cant do. He just doesnt have the game speed to run with the fastest of recievers. Both like to hit so run support is a wash in my book.

Frankly, I have gone back and forth with this pick., I like Jones, but just thought of picking a CB at #8 scares me b/c BIG things will be expected from them and I am not sure ANY cb in this situation (lack of depth or vetern leadership in the defensive backfield) will really thrive.

What it comes down to to me is athelticism when so many CB's are close skill wise and I dont think Rolle or Rogers is 3/4 the athlete Jones is, nor does Rolle posses that "Fluidity" in coverage IMO. Rolle will be a wonderful NFL player, but I think he is more adept to play SS right now...

 

[earthsci]

Frankly, I have gone back and forth with this pick., I like Jones, but just thought of picking a CB at #8 scares me b/c BIG things will be expected from them and I am not sure ANY cb in this situation (lack of depth or vetern leadership in the defensive backfield) will really thrive.

I agree. That's why I've jumped on the Derrick Johnson's bandwagon. Take him, if available, then take CBs at #2 & #3 picks, i.e. - Corey Webster, Brandon Browner, etc. Create a MAD pass rush. The CBs wouldn't need to stick with their man as long.

 

[kerouac9]

Well, I agree that Rolle isn't a true cover corner, but overall I disagree. We don't need a cover corner. We play a Cover 2 Defense and Rolle is an excellent fit for that.

The Arizona Cardinals most definitely do not play a Cover 2 defense. We play some Cover-3, with the FS and both corners dropping into deep coverage, but we play very, very little Cover-2 because we don't get quite enough heat from the defensive line, and because we love to bring Adrian Wilson and/or Karlos Dansby in on the blitz. The Cover-2 only works when you're dropping all your LBs into coverage over the middle, your corners in the flats and your safeties working deep. We really did not run that very much.

We put our corners out on the island quite a bit, it seems to me. The FS has been good at giving some support once the ball is in the air, but I didn't see a lot of Cover-2 shells during the season.

If it came down to it, I might rather have Carlos Rogers, who is kind of a mix between the two. But at #8 I'd rather have Jones because he makes a better fit as a big-play (if not shutdown) cornerback. He reminds me a lot of a more physical Dre' Bly.

EDIT: I also think that Russ's comment on Fitz v. Jones is a red herring. Fitz has rare size that PacMan isn't going to see all that often. Fitz was putting up numbers on every team except Miami, and that was at least in part because of a fierce pass rush.

I'm almost ready to drop the ol' Kerouac9 Lock of the Draft on Derrick Johnson not being an Arizona Cardinal. I'm almost ready to drop it on him not being selected in the top 12.

 

[cardsunsfan]

The Arizona Cardinals most definitely do not play a Cover 2 defense. We play some Cover-3, with the FS and both corners dropping into deep coverage, but we play very, very little Cover-2 because we don't get quite enough heat from the defensive line, and because we love to bring Adrian Wilson and/or Karlos Dansby in on the blitz. The Cover-2 only works when you're dropping all your LBs into coverage over the middle, your corners in the flats and your safeties working deep. We really did not run that very much.

We put our corners out on the island quite a bit, it seems to me. The FS has been good at giving some support once the ball is in the air, but I didn't see a lot of Cover-2 shells during the season.

If it came down to it, I might rather have Carlos Rogers, who is kind of a mix between the two. But at #8 I'd rather have Jones because he makes a better fit as a big-play (if not shutdown) cornerback. He reminds me a lot of a more physical Dre' Bly.

EDIT: I also think that Russ's comment on Fitz v. Jones is a red herring. Fitz has rare size that PacMan isn't going to see all that often. Fitz was putting up numbers on every team except Miami, and that was at least in part because of a fierce pass rush.

I'm almost ready to drop the ol' Kerouac9 Lock of the Draft on Derrick Johnson not being an Arizona Cardinal. I'm almost ready to drop it on him not being selected in the top 12.

I don't know.. Fitz didn't have to play against too many great corners when he played...and Russ did have a point that Fitz didn't look all that great last yr compared to college so it does seem like the Corners in the NFL are often better than what Fitz faced including Rolle. Fitz also wasn't always going against their best receiver either and picking at 8 you want your guy to have the potential of being that guy. I would get Surtain myself even with his high bonus...can't cost us much more that what Rolle or another cb would cost.

 

[Russ Smith]

First off, Fitzgerald was a beast in college and any CB that went up against him got smoked. He was never shut down by any CB including Rolle for that matter. That isnt a fair comparison. All Fitz did that day was out jump him since he had 6 inches of height on him. It had absolutly nothing to do with seperation. None . zilch. nada.

There are definate downsides to Jones . His size isnt great and he certaily takes too many chances to make the big play. However, he is so fluid in coverage and so fast he can run with anyone in the league. Something Rolle just cant do. He just doesnt have the game speed to run with the fastest of recievers. Both like to hit so run support is a wash in my book.

Frankly, I have gone back and forth with this pick., I like Jones, but just thought of picking a CB at #8 scares me b/c BIG things will be expected from them and I am not sure ANY cb in this situation (lack of depth or vetern leadership in the defensive backfield) will really thrive.

What it comes down to to me is athelticism when so many CB's are close skill wise and I dont think Rolle or Rogers is 3/4 the athlete Jones is, nor does Rolle posses that "Fluidity" in coverage IMO. Rolle will be a wonderful NFL player, but I think he is more adept to play SS right now...

I don't disagree with you and Fitz had a pretty good rookie year by just outjumping guys in the NFL. But my point was, I like to judge prospects by comparing how they do against good teams and good players and if you do that with Jones the best guy he faced in college was Fitz and he was completely destroyed.

I fully realize Rolle shutting down Fitz had a lot more to do with his DL sacking Rutherford over and over than with Rolle. My main point is if we're starting ANY rookie at CB this year we have to expect that unless the pass rush is great, we're going to see some huge plays against us because not even a great athlete like Jones can shut down a really good WR.

the nice thing with Pacman is he IS fast enough to run with NFL wr's without having to hold them which these days you can't do, I don't think Rolle is. The problem with Pacman is he tends to rely so much on his speed and in the NFL that can really kill you. And he's such an aggressive player I really fear he could be picked on mercilessly if he's starting.

I just don't feel any of those 3 are going to be ready from day 1 which is why I am so much in favor of trying to get Surtain.

 

[kerouac9]

I don't disagree with you and Fitz had a pretty good rookie year by just outjumping guys in the NFL. But my point was, I like to judge prospects by comparing how they do against good teams and good players and if you do that with Jones the best guy he faced in college was Fitz and he was completely destroyed.

I fully realize Rolle shutting down Fitz had a lot more to do with his DL sacking Rutherford over and over than with Rolle. My main point is if we're starting ANY rookie at CB this year we have to expect that unless the pass rush is great, we're going to see some huge plays against us because not even a great athlete like Jones can shut down a really good WR.

the nice thing with Pacman is he IS fast enough to run with NFL wr's without having to hold them which these days you can't do, I don't think Rolle is. The problem with Pacman is he tends to rely so much on his speed and in the NFL that can really kill you. And he's such an aggressive player I really fear he could be picked on mercilessly if he's starting.

I just don't feel any of those 3 are going to be ready from day 1 which is why I am so much in favor of trying to get Surtain.

2 Things That You're Going to Have to Give Up on Happening and Get Over:
1. The Arizona Cardinals drafting Derrick Johnson
2. The Arizona Cardinals acquiring Patrick Surtain

Look at Dunta Robinson; he had a GREAT rookie season for Houston, with 6 INTs, 3 sacks, and 16 passes defensed. Their passing D wasn't great, but they didn't have much of a pass rush. Pac Man reminds me a lot of Robinson.

You're right that they're not going to be ready on day 1, but neither are any of the rookies that we draft--not really. It's going to be about the pass rush and Pendergast not totally abandoning the rookie(s) on the field and protecting them a little. It's probably one of the reasons that we picked up Griffith.

It's pretty clear that Green and Graves have made a decision to go into next season with at least two rookie corners, and probably one of them will start (more likely that one will play the nickel for about half the season with Hill starting on the outside and then take over mid-year). I really wish that you and Snakester would stop bellyaching about getting guys like Surtain, Dyson, or Law.

Fitz was a bad matchup for Jones, but Fitz is supposed to be a bad matchup for everyone, that's the reason he was drafted 3rd overall in the 2004 NFL Draft. It's hard to say how Jones really did in 2004, because he didn't have much of a pass rush in front of him this last season. But he seems to have the skills and the attitude that you want in a cornerback, as well as the experience playing the purer form of the position.

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

I don't disagree with you and Fitz had a pretty good rookie year by just outjumping guys in the NFL. But my point was, I like to judge prospects by comparing how they do against good teams and good players and if you do that with Jones the best guy he faced in college was Fitz and he was completely destroyed.

I fully realize Rolle shutting down Fitz had a lot more to do with his DL sacking Rutherford over and over than with Rolle. My main point is if we're starting ANY rookie at CB this year we have to expect that unless the pass rush is great, we're going to see some huge plays against us because not even a great athlete like Jones can shut down a really good WR.

the nice thing with Pacman is he IS fast enough to run with NFL wr's without having to hold them which these days you can't do, I don't think Rolle is. The problem with Pacman is he tends to rely so much on his speed and in the NFL that can really kill you. And he's such an aggressive player I really fear he could be picked on mercilessly if he's starting.

I just don't feel any of those 3 are going to be ready from day 1 which is why I am so much in favor of trying to get Surtain.

I dont know that we totally disagree Russ. Hell you me and K9 are pretty much ont he same page. I dont get the impression any of us thinks a CB @ 8 is gonna be the 'savior" shut-down CB b/c of the situation they are coming into. They may just be good enough -with a great pass rush- to get us where we want to be, but with the lack of depth and veterns it is scary.

My arguement is however, that Jones is just so much better an athlete and plays the position more in the mold you want (better cover skills) that he imo would be a better pick. Couple that with his PR/KR abilities and to me, it isn't even close.

The Fitz comparison I dont beleive. as stated before, the atchup one-on-one with ANY cb would result in big games for Fitz. Hell he did it in the NFL last year...if he were matched up one on one you knew where that ball was going. (or tried to go with McCown)

As far as the Surtain trade, well se K9's post. It is just not gonna happen. I would like it too, but that deal would have already been made if it were gonna happen imo.