Why BJ looks slow out there.

[clif]

You all but said cut him, in fact I think you did say cut him more than once when the rumor was he was going to be cut.

So if one year is too early to give up on BJ, why wasn't it too early for you to give up on Pace?

That's what I meant by fair, I should have said consistent.

I seriously doubt I said cut him...I said I would not be surprised if he was cut based on his statements and level of play. Please show me a link where I said to cut him?

 

[conraddobler]

hey there were several of us making that precise argument before the draft. I felt the best player ultimately would be Sean Taylor, but if we were locked into taking a WR to make the 3WR set work, I wanted Roy or Mike Williams, not Fitz. When Mike was ruled out, I wanted Roy.

My main reason was as you said, he has the deep speed we lack, Fitz is going to be a very good maybe even great WR, but he's too similar to Quan he won't give us the deep threat Roy will give Detroit. Of course in my scenario we would have moved down since 3 was too high to pick Roy, and then you take the risk someone takes him before you can.

he was the 7th player taken so to get him we could have only traded with Washington at 5, or Cleveland(from Detroit) at 6, and likely it would have had to be Washington.

Bottom line is Green was only considering one WR and he knows enough about Fitz that I'm willing to give him some leeway there for now. Fitz is certainly not doing poorly on a pace for 72 catches for nearly 900 yards with a crappy OL and a young QB. But I do still have the same concern that he's not quick enough or fast enough and we'll need to ultimately add such a player to open this offense up.

I said all along I was hoping Oakland would take Fitz so that we'd never have to face the decision of Green passing on him for someone else.

Again though too early to say, he wouldn't be the first great WR to not have sprinters speed.

Chris Carter said the same thing with a Boldin will get peeved kicker that I think was silly but the point about deep speed was valid.

Heck we already have someone that catches everyting and is much more explosive than Fitz and that's Boldin.

Fitz will be very good don't get me wrong but BUT we were about the only team in the league that didn't need him.

People say with Boldin injured gee it's great we took Fitz... Ummmm well sort of but if we'd have taken Williams we'd have a deep threat and Poole to fill Boldins spot and at this point I think would be better off.

We don't have the blocking yet to fully use a WR like Williams but Williams on a quick slant would stop or at least punish a lot of that all out Blitz crap and he could break those against a stacked defense.

Overall I like Green and am not harping about this or trying to prove I am right but he makes mistakes too and this is one of them. Cutting Kendall was another I think but if he wants to run his team that way then he's the boss.

I think that Johnson will be good eventually but not ever as good as Williams and Williams Boldin Johnson would be nigh on unstoppable.

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

detroit is only slightly better than us if that. They have upgraded their OL in the last 2 years. Jones hasn't done anything at RB, Rogers is out again, the big difference so far is Harrington is completing a higher %, and surprisingly taking more sacks, he's been sacked 4 times in 2 games after only 17 sacks in his first 30 NFL games.I haven't seen them play but I'm assuming he's learned that he was throwing the ball away TOO quickly, which lowered his % and now he's giving his WR's more time to get open and as a result, he' scompleting more. Just a guess haven't seen him play yet.

Williams is for real, not a superstar mind you but Mariucci has already said he's the most physically gifted WR he's seen come into the league since Moss. If he can stay healthy and learn he's going to be a great one. People forget, during his freshman year at Texas everyone from Kiper to Brandt pegged him the best NFL prospect in the country, as Conrad said he basically played for a coach who squandered him in college, Mariucci won't do that.

Detroit has a much better o-line than the Cards and have had one for some time now. Harrington is playing better but he still isnt a world beater. I watched some of the game Sunday vs. Texans (had money on it) and there were times he looked good and other times he looked confused a la McCown.

As far as Mariucci saying that, well thats absurd.

He is gonna tell me that physically Williams is bigger and stronger than Owens? Thats how you kill a kid, Say to the media this kid is great blah blah blah next thing you know he is under achieved.

Everyone is talking about Williams because he had a couple of good games but after the Rams game everyone was talking about how good Fitz was. All I am saying is before you annoint anyone or call anyone a bust be careful. Its game 2 of their rookie season!

I think Detroit right now is a much better team than the Cards mainly because they have had a couple of years under Mariucci and he has a vision for the team. You could see at the end of last year they were getting much better. I would say the Cards are a solid notch below where the Lions are right now.

 

[Russ Smith]

I seriously doubt I said cut him...I said I would not be surprised if he was cut based on his statements and level of play. Please show me a link where I said to cut him?

hey you're the defense you prove you're innocent I just distinctly recall on more than one thread where LV and I were arguing that Green was burying Pace unfairly, you were saying Green could do what he wanted, that Pace was clearly not earning PT, and if he got cut it would be his own fault. I know one thread for sure where you said you had no problem with Green cutting guys who he inherited regardless of their draft position if they weren't performing. Given the timing I think I assumed you meant Pace for one.

But I'm not going to search through all your posts I'm not THAT bored.


I still say your comment about BJ was hypocritical, you were highly critical of Pace who had just one year.

 

[Russ Smith]

Detroit has a much better o-line than the Cards and have had one for some time now. Harrington is playing better but he still isnt a world beater. I watched some of the game Sunday vs. Texans (had money on it) and there were times he looked good and other times he looked confused a la McCown.

As far as Mariucci saying that, well thats absurd.

He is gonna tell me that physically Williams is bigger and stronger than Owens? Thats how you kill a kid, Say to the media this kid is great blah blah blah next thing you know he is under achieved.

Detroit's OL was horrible until Harrington got there, suddenly low sack numbers, but it was Harrington, not the OL. That's why they drafted Backus and signed Woody this year as a FA. I think they will be better this year, than they were last year but will give up more sacks. I have read more than once that Mooch felt Harrington was too quick to throw the ball away to avoid sacks, that while he liked his awareness, he felt he missed some chances to hit big plays because of that habit.

On Mooch and Williams, I read the quote yesterday I'll see if I can find it, realize he's talking total package, size, strength, speed. Owens is a better WR for sure but he's not as fast as Williams. And remember, he said SINCE Moss, Randy came into the NFL in '98, Owens in '96, so Owens isn't even an eligible answer since he came before Moss, not after .

The gist of the article was after a slow start, Williams was really starting to show his skill level in camp and Mooch basically said phsyically he's the most talented WR I've seen come in since Randy Moss. I would agree talking just athletic ability.

He may never be a great WR, may never run great routes, but as long as he's this fast, this tall, and can jump, he's going to be a problem for DB's.

Fitz is going to be good don't get me wrong, but as Conrad said, we already had that type of player in Quan.

The only real question on Roy is health, he's had nagging leg injuries throughout his college career.

 

[clif]

hey you're the defense you prove you're innocent I just distinctly recall on more than one thread where LV and I were arguing that Green was burying Pace unfairly, you were saying Green could do what he wanted, that Pace was clearly not earning PT, and if he got cut it would be his own fault. I know one thread for sure where you said you had no problem with Green cutting guys who he inherited regardless of their draft position if they weren't performing. Given the timing I think I assumed you meant Pace for one.

But I'm not going to search through all your posts I'm not THAT bored.


I still say your comment about BJ was hypocritical, you were highly critical of Pace who had just one year.

Yeah and as I said I was critical of him based on his performance AND his comments. I would not have been surprised if he was cut. I STILL would not be surprised if johnson is cut. My point is and was that either way DG will do what he feels is necessary and I dont have a problem with it. I never said pace was a bust, but i could not understand why you or whoever was so "shocked" that he was not getting PT. he was injured, and from his comments he was doubting himself. I still think BJ had an average rookie season and he needs to step up and MAY be a goner still, but I am certainly not calling for his release and I sure as heck was not calling for Paces.

 

[Russ Smith]

Yeah and as I said I was critical of him based on his performance AND his comments. I would not have been surprised if he was cut. I STILL would not be surprised if johnson is cut. My point is and was that either way DG will do what he feels is necessary and I dont have a problem with it. I never said pace was a bust, but i could not understand why you or whoever was so "shocked" that he was not getting PT. he was injured, and from his comments he was doubting himself. I still think BJ had an average rookie season and he needs to step up and MAY be a goner still, but I am certainly not calling for his release and I sure as heck was not calling for Paces.

Gotcha.

So you're saying they're both busts

I wasn't high on Johnson when we drafted him, but after seeing what he did in college on a non passing team I convinced myself with some coaching, he'd get better. he started well, got hurt, and faded last year. So far this year it's too early to judge, he's not 100% healthy and he clearly missed a lot of time working with Josh which is hurting him too. Josh is locking in on Fitz because he trusts him, he hasn't worked enough with BJ to have that trust yet.

I think Pace will ultimately replace Zellner, do better, and then a lot of people will say "see, Green motivated him and now he's playing better."

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

Gotcha.

I think Pace will ultimately replace Zellner, do better, and then a lot of people will say "see, Green motivated him and now he's playing better."

I had that exact feeling except instead of 'motivation' throw in the term coaching. People will say coaching is why he is a starter now (when it happens)


On that note, if you have noticed, Pace is getting into games more and more now. On special teams and he was in ona few 3rd and longs vs. the Pats,. Infact he had a QB hurry early when Brady rolled right a little and had to throw back over his shoulder to Dillon who lost a yard. Anyway, point is he was in the game!

 

[clif]

Gotcha.

So you're saying they're both busts

I wasn't high on Johnson when we drafted him, but after seeing what he did in college on a non passing team I convinced myself with some coaching, he'd get better. he started well, got hurt, and faded last year. So far this year it's too early to judge, he's not 100% healthy and he clearly missed a lot of time working with Josh which is hurting him too. Josh is locking in on Fitz because he trusts him, he hasn't worked enough with BJ to have that trust yet.

I think Pace will ultimately replace Zellner, do better, and then a lot of people will say "see, Green motivated him and now he's playing better."

Never said they were busts. If you feel that is what i am saying then go right ahead. I am willing to give both time to develop BUT I will NOT be shocked if either was cut.

I recall stating that Pace needs to improve and he did not have the year we would have liked, but I was NOT shocked he was 3rd string or whatever and even stated that I thought he would make the team, so for you to say that I called him a bust is so far from the truth its laughable.

 

[WildBB]

I am not buying into the Roy Williams hype just yet.

Outside of a couple ot TD's his numbers arent any better than Fitz and he obviously plays on a better team!


Let it die already.

Te real crime was not drafting a real QB when we had the chance!

Two years in a row! Passing on Leftwich was really bad IMO.

 

[Redsz]

Leftwitch would of done nothing behind this line aprt from getting sacked over and over again. Let it go already.

 

[jw7]

Leftwitch would of done nothing behind this line aprt from getting sacked over and over again. Let it go already.

That's a good point. If Josh had Leftwich's mobility he'd have been sacked 15 times already this year.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

We should have drafted R. Williams

Madness.


You all are really going crazy. 2 weeks go by and Fitz is now a bad draft pick.

The guy has made plenty of good plays as a rookie.

The comment that he cannot go up and get the ball in traffic is an absolute joke. THE FIRST PLAY OF THE SEASON HE OUT JUMPED 2 MEN TO CATCH THAT 50 YARD FLEA FLICKER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Absolutely unbeleivable. This is just more evidence proving that if Jim Brown, Jerry Rice, and Dan Marino where on this team. They would all be dubbed that worst players in football.

The Cardinals have had more than 2 major injuries. A new system put in. A new team that changes by the day. And have played 2 of the better in the National Football League.

I think you should wait at least another 6 weeks to see where this team is going. Another season or two to decide if Fitz is the real deal or not. And I won't even TOUCH on the Boldin comment since you people must come to grips with the fact you have one of the best players in the NFL on your team.....like it or not.

Instead of ripping each player apart piece by piece why don't we start a thread about who is doing well on the team. Heck it is the only thing NOT talked about on this board.

Peace

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Andre Johnson beat him too.

There is your bust. The guy can't catch a ball to save his life.

As for Roy Williams, and Fitz they are BOTH great young WR with great futures. Is there a law against saying both are good?

Peace

 

[Russ Smith]

Never said they were busts. If you feel that is what i am saying then go right ahead. I am willing to give both time to develop BUT I will NOT be shocked if either was cut.

I recall stating that Pace needs to improve and he did not have the year we would have liked, but I was NOT shocked he was 3rd string or whatever and even stated that I thought he would make the team, so for you to say that I called him a bust is so far from the truth its laughable.

Come on Clif the smiley is right there, that was a joke.

 

[Russ Smith]

Madness.


You all are really going crazy. 2 weeks go by and Fitz is now a bad draft pick.

The guy has made plenty of good plays as a rookie.

The comment that he cannot go up and get the ball in traffic is an absolute joke. THE FIRST PLAY OF THE SEASON HE OUT JUMPED 2 MEN TO CATCH THAT 50 YARD FLEA FLICKER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Absolutely unbeleivable. This is just more evidence proving that if Jim Brown, Jerry Rice, and Dan Marino where on this team. They would all be dubbed that worst players in football.

Peace

Did anybody say that about Fitz? all i've seen is speed questions, and the fact that he's not getting separation in part because he's not explosive. quan isn't fast either but he's quick, and so elusive he gets open, Fitz doesn't do that yet.

Nobody said Fitz was a bad pick, that would have been say Reggie Williams at #3. But saying he wasn't the best pick, I've said it all along, so have others. He'll be very good, if he and Roy both stay healthy, I suspect Williams would have been a better pick for us.

 

[Russ Smith]

C-mack can you please post the results of the combine, you apparently have that information and nobody else here does.

 

[clif]

Come on Clif the smiley is right there, that was a joke.

man you and me are going head to head today

 

[C-MACK]

As for questions about the Cards Combine. I don't have a list of all the times or anything. I just know that they put everyone through a 40 yd dash a longer run of 200-400 yards or so a couple of agility drills like the 3 cone and shuttle runs and the bench press over a 2 day period. Actually everyone wasn't in the combine. Anquan refused to participate and unlike Poole who also missed he didn't have to make it up later. As for the times all I remember is that of the 3 guys who ran 4.4 forties only Scobey remains. Gilmore and Kasper were the other two. The guy I talked to was amazed that BJ ran a 4.7 or 4.8 and said that Poole was hovering around 5.0 which was less surprising. Thats about all the info I can remember.

 

[Russ Smith]

As for questions about the Cards Combine. I don't have a list of all the times or anything. I just know that they put everyone through a 40 yd dash a longer run of 200-400 yards or so a couple of agility drills like the 3 cone and shuttle runs and the bench press over a 2 day period. Actually everyone wasn't in the combine. Anquan refused to participate and unlike Poole who also missed he didn't have to make it up later. As for the times all I remember is that of the 3 guys who ran 4.4 forties only Scobey remains. Gilmore and Kasper were the other two. The guy I talked to was amazed that BJ ran a 4.7 or 4.8 and said that Poole was hovering around 5.0 which was less surprising. Thats about all the info I can remember.

Thanks. I would be surprised if there were printed results available given that the NFL told Green such a combine was against the rules.

Doesn't surprise me at all that he apparently did one, as long as it's controlled for the players protection I don't see any harm in it. now if he's got guys rappelling off rock formations then yeah I'd be upset !

 

[Cheesebeef]

I'll just come out and say it - Bryant Johnson sucks and I have NEVER seen anything from him to believe otherwise. Here's a question - where the hell are people getting this notion that he ahd the second best rookie season for recievers? Andre Johnson blew him away and hell, even 3rd round pick from last year, Nate Burrelsome - yeah - a third round pick - got more yrads and TDs than Johnson and this year has looked like a solid number 2 for the Vikings.

The guy can't get open and this vaunted speed people talk about has NEVER been shown on the field. He's a goner sooner rather than later IMO - 1st round picks shouldn't be 3rd recievers - IN ANY OFFENSE.

BUST.

 

[Harpo]

I'll just come out and say it - Bryant Johnson sucks and I have NEVER seen anything from him to believe otherwise. Here's a question - where the hell are people getting this notion that he ahd the second best rookie season for recievers? Andre Johnson blew him away and hell, even 3rd round pick from last year, Nate Burrelsome - yeah - a third round pick - got more yrads and TDs than Johnson and this year has looked like a solid number 2 for the Vikings.

The guy can't get open and this vaunted speed people talk about has NEVER been shown on the field. He's a goner sooner rather than later IMO - 1st round picks shouldn't be 3rd recievers - IN ANY OFFENSE.

BUST.

Amen my brother

 

[Scott MS]

I'll take Bryant Johnson any day of the week!! He's looking good against the Falcons.