Why Can't The Suns Find A Big Man?

[sunsfn]

If the suns would have re-signed TT they would have had their big man problem solved. He could have played a few minutes every game, and played more in case of injuries, fouls etc. The reason I say this is that D'Antoni is not going to sign a big that can not shoot and help space the floor, and there is no one out there like that for the money we could have signed TT for. TT can play some defense and rebound as he showed last year.
Then they should have signed a veteran pg to back up Nash.

I am not unhappy with the Banks signing, just not overwhelmed by him. He had a very good game against the suns, but I watched other games and it seemed like he had as many turnovers as assists. He is young and will improve, but I think we needed a big and a backup guard more than Banks. That is, for the money situation.

Fred Jones or Anthony Johnson for part of the TE may have worked. And as it turns out we could probably get Salmons. No matter what happened with Salmons, he is a 6' 7" combo guard. He played point in college and can handle the ball and play defense.

Now we have a backup point guard that will not play many minutes for the money we are paying him, (you do not set the MVP, you play him minumum 30-35 min. a game) 2 centers in Burke and Marks who most could care less are even on the team, and we are still looking for a big with hardly any money left. (Can you imagine playing either of them instead of TT if he was here!)

The off season was not a bust, but it could have been better and I would give it a C at the most right now.

They may make a trade using James Jones, and I will still be happy with the off season, but so far I am not.

 

[Mainstreet]

...Running can be prevented in the playoffs with "all out D" the players are not willing to play in the regular season. Spacing will be important and Leo will have a big role to play there with the departures of House, TT. Everyone of course knows, that if Amare is behaving like Tigger, spacing will be much improved.

If Amare is not healthy enough to take the ball strong inside in the playoffs in a half-court set, the Suns are going to be dependent upon their outside shooting as I do not see any other big man on the Suns roster (with perhaps the potential exception of Diaw) with the ability to do this. Spacing is fine if the Suns are going to be an outside shooting team... but teams that live and die by the outside shot usually die sooner or later by the outside shot in the playoffs. I would at least like to add a banger to this roster so the Suns at least have a chance at getting offensive and defensive rebounds in a half-court game when opposing teams shut down the middle and run out on the outside shooters. Then the Suns might gather at least a few more offensive and defensive rebounds.

I agree if Amare is the Amare of old, opposing defenses will be colapsing on him and there will be easy outside shots for all. I just want some insurance if Amare cannot dominate inside as he did before the injury. If not, shooting and rebounding will be at a premium both offensively and defensively in the playoffs.

 

[Mainstreet]

If the suns would have re-signed TT they would have had their big man problem solved. He could have played a few minutes every game, and played more in case of injuries, fouls etc. The reason I say this is that D'Antoni is not going to sign a big that can not shoot and help space the floor, and there is no one out there like that for the money we could have signed TT for. TT can play some defense and rebound as he showed last year.

Then they should have signed a veteran pg to back up Nash.

I agree re-signing TT and adding a veteran PG to the roster would have been the quick fix.

However, I think the Suns will be playing Banks at the 2 guard situationally so I think Banks will get his minutes.

 

[George O'Brien]

Then they should have signed a veteran pg to back up Nash.

I am not unhappy with the Banks signing, just not overwhelmed by him. He had a very good game against the suns, but I watched other games and it seemed like he had as many turnovers as assists. He is young and will improve, but I think we needed a big and a backup guard more than Banks. That is, for the money situation.

Fred Jones or Anthony Johnson for part of the TE may have worked. And as it turns out we could probably get Salmons. No matter what happened with Salmons, he is a 6' 7" combo guard. He played point in college and can handle the ball and play defense.

Now we have a backup point guard that will not play many minutes for the money we are paying him, (you do not set the MVP, you play him minumum 30-35 min. a game) 2 centers in Burke and Marks who most could care less are even on the team, and we are still looking for a big with hardly any money left. (Can you imagine playing either of them instead of TT if he was here!)

The off season was not a bust, but it could have been better and I would give it a C at the most right now.

They may make a trade using James Jones, and I will still be happy with the off season, but so far I am not.

It should be clear the Suns really did try to get a PG without spending their entire MLE. The Salmons deal was using their TE, which would have left them money for a big. But TT was gone and then the Salmons deal fell through. If they had used their entire MLE on TT, then they'd be without a backup for Nash.

A backup for Nash was their number one priority. I can't argue with that.

 

[Mainstreet]

It should be clear the Suns really did try to get a PG without spending their entire MLE. The Salmons deal was using their TE, which would have left them money for a big. But TT was gone and then the Salmons deal fell through. If they had used their entire MLE on TT, then they'd be without a backup for Nash.

A backup for Nash was their number one priority. I can't argue with that.

George, I understand what you are saying, however, if the Suns could have gotten TT for something near the MLE, I'm sure they could have traded a future first round pick and used the TE to acquire a backup PG. Also there would have also been the possibility of trading JR for a PG. Anyhow, a backup PG would probably be easier to acquire than a versatile big man such as TT.

Now there might have been some salary ramifications and perhaps the Suns saw something in TT that made them hesitate.

Anyway, I'm happy except for the Suns depth at the 4/5.

 

[George O'Brien]

If I read their plan, it was that they would offer TT a deal beginning at $3.5 million and use the rest for a PG. The TE is nice, but has a short time for use and would not work for many guys.

It looks like they tried to do deals with the difference between the $3.5 and the MLE for Lindsay Hunter while Salmons as plan B. The amount above vet minimum can be pivotal. The Suns could have had Joel Przybilla a couple of years ago if they had more than minimum to offer.

 

[F-Dog]

It's one thing to play Shawn Marion at PF if the Suns want too (because of favorable matchups and to speed up the game) than if they have too. However, in the playoffs (in a half-court game), the Suns will be totally outmuscled and likely have to play against superior height which is a very serious problem if Shawn is our PF.

And the other team will be totally outquicked, and their players will be forced to scramble around on defense like a bunch of chickens with their heads cut off. It's not like the 'very serious problem' is only on one side here.


The Suns are looking around for one more player because they need a guy for depth, in case Amare and KT both go down. If they need six fouls for Shaq or whatever, they might as well stick with what they've got, because--given what they're planning to offer--they won't do much better than Pat Burke.

 

[Mainstreet]

And the other team will be totally outquicked, and their players will be forced to scramble around on defense like a bunch of chickens with their heads cut off. It's not like the 'very serious problem' is only on one side here.


The Suns are looking around for one more player because they need a guy for depth, in case Amare and KT both go down. If they need six fouls for Shaq or whatever, they might as well stick with what they've got, because--given what they're planning to offer--they won't do much better than Pat Burke.

IMO, in every playoff series the Suns played this past season, the Lakers, the Clippers or the Mavericks the strategy for the opposition was to take the ball inside on Phoenix on offense and make them shoot the outside shot on defense by denying penetration, not giving the Suns any crack at second chance points on rebounds, as well as slowing the game down.

In a half-court game the Suns flaws were obvious. If not running the Suns were not able to get the ball inside much and were reduced to a single shot jump shooting team. The Suns offensive rebounds also were generally taken away. I simply grew weary of the Suns (even when they did play good defense) give the opposition second and third chance efforts on rebounds. Diaw was about the Suns only inside presence except when Nash was weaving his way through traffic or Barbosa was also able to isolate his man one-on-one.

Also if your counting on Pat Burke, good luck. He loves the outside shot and does not seem to battle for rebounds.

 

[George O'Brien]

Actually everyone had the same strategy and the fact that it didn't work until the Suns had lost three starters suggests it might not be THAT effective.

Realistically, it is very hard to stop a team from shooting from the outside and penitrating at the same time. It's even harder when one of the guys going to the basket is named Amare.

From another threat:

Amare's Blog

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Night and Day
Posted by Amare Stoudemire on July 23, 2006, 5:50 p.m. ET

The whole focus today was about defense and working together. We're representing the USA, so we gotta be on the same page. The defense leading into transition baskets is very important. On the Phoenix Suns, that's how we get most of our fast break baskets, off of creating turnovers and rebounding. The guys that we have here are so fast in the open court and the court is 10 feet shorter than the NBA court, so you can get down the floor a lot faster.

The way I feel know is pretty much night and day compared to where I was in summer league a couple of weeks ago. In summer league, I wasn't quite there. The whole purpose of summer league was to make gradual improvement and that week was great for me. It gave me a chance to see where I was and how I felt playing in a fast-break, full-court type of game with the officials. It helped out a lot, but now this week is night and day and next week should be even better. I should have improvement each week.

http://www.nba.com/usabasketball/blo...723_stoudemire

 

[F-Dog]

I simply grew weary of the Suns (even when they did play good defense) give the opposition second and third chance efforts on rebounds. Diaw was about the Suns only inside presence except when Nash was weaving his way through traffic or Barbosa was also able to isolate his man one-on-one.

Sure, just like the other teams' fans grew weary of their team giving up transition baskets and open jumpers.

I promise you that D'Antoni is concerned with effectiveness rather than style--there's a good chance the team's "new big" won't be that big. Who knows, maybe next year you'll get to cover your eyes for four series rather than three.

Also if your counting on Pat Burke, good luck. He loves the outside shot and does not seem to battle for rebounds.

I'm definitely not counting on Pat Burke. I'm just pointing out that your typical $1.5m FA center won't be much better.

There's a reason the Suns were so quick to jump on Brian Grant last year.

 

[Mainstreet]

Sure, just like the other teams' fans grew weary of their team giving up transition baskets and open jumpers.

I promise you that D'Antoni is concerned with effectiveness rather than style--there's a good chance the team's "new big" won't be that big. Who knows, maybe next year you'll get to cover your eyes for four series rather than three.


I'm definitely not counting on Pat Burke. I'm just pointing out that your typical $1.5m FA center won't be much better.

There's a reason the Suns were so quick to jump on Brian Grant last year.

F-Dog, I do not want to change the Suns style of play as it's effective. If the whole playoffs could be played in transition I would really enjoy it. It's really exciting basketball. All I've been trying to say, is that I would like the Suns to add another rebounder or such when the game evolves into half court sets (generally in the playoffs) or the Suns go completely cold from the field. I don't care if the Suns new big is not that big as long as he can rebound.

The only example I can readily think of right now, was Marcus Fizer when he was available out of the NBADL last season. Fizer may or may not have had issues, but he could rebound and shoot which would have made him a nice addition to the Suns roster. I don't know if he is available this season. I've always thought Lonny Baxter could be used as a good role player with the right team. There may be ten or more better examples of undersized 4/5's that could be had reasonably. Granted not all may be good shooters but they can rebound. I just want someone at the end of the Suns bench when the game evolves into a half court game that can grab a few offensive and defensive rebounds. Think of it as an insurance policy if someone gets hurt upfront on the Suns roster.

By the way, I actually think Burke might have been able to play such a role, if he practiced going inside at garbage time instead of practicing his outside shot. Spacing is great, but when the other team covers your shooters and has better height inside, the Suns need someone on the court that can get them second chance offensive rebounds as well as defensive rebounds.

The Suns had a better record than the Lakers and Clippers and theoretically should have been able to dispose of them without going to seven games with each team. Yes, the Suns eventually won, but it was clear to me these teams had figured out a way to beat the Suns... pound the ball inside on offense and only give the Suns one shot at the basket on defense... also slow the game now as much as possible. The Mavs continued the same strategy.

I think another rebounder on the Suns roster could have helped when these teams were successful in imposing their will on the Suns. If the Suns can run all game, you can keep that rebounder I want on the bench. Again, he is an insurance policy if nothing else.

 

[Azlen]

An insurance policy is all he would be. If you were to play this "end of bench" big guy in the playoffs it would mean that 2 of Amare, Marion, Diaw and KT would have to be sitting down and I really don't like the Suns chances if that's the case.

 

[Mainstreet]

An insurance policy is all he would be. If you were to play this "end of bench" big guy in the playoffs it would mean that 2 of Amare, Marion, Diaw and KT would have to be sitting down and I really don't like the Suns chances if that's the case.

Your assuming all these players are healthy and none are in foul trouble. Remember last season. I agree if the Suns frontline can play the entire season and playoffs without using the type role player I suggest, I would be a happy man.

However, are you willing to bet a Championship on it? I'm not asking for the sky... probably just another undersized 4/5 that can rebound.

 

[sunsfn]

Mainstreet said
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The Suns had a better record than the Lakers and Clippers and theoretically should have been able to dispose of them without going to seven games with each team. Yes, the Suns eventually won, but it was clear to me these teams had figured out a way to beat the Suns... pound the ball inside on offense and only give the Suns one shot at the basket on defense... also slow the game now as much as possible. The Mavs continued the same strategy.
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I think they had their man in TT but did not sign him.

But remember, Kurt Thomas did not play during the playoffs and that would have made a difference in the suns rebounding. One has to wonder if D'Antoni would have played Kurt against them a lot of minutes, but without TT I think KT would have played a lot.

I do not think the suns are going to get another big man worth getting without some kind of trade.

 

[Chaplin]

Mainstreet said
-----------------------------------------------------------
The Suns had a better record than the Lakers and Clippers and theoretically should have been able to dispose of them without going to seven games with each team. Yes, the Suns eventually won, but it was clear to me these teams had figured out a way to beat the Suns... pound the ball inside on offense and only give the Suns one shot at the basket on defense... also slow the game now as much as possible. The Mavs continued the same strategy.
-----------------------------------------------

I think they had their man in TT but did not sign him.

But remember, Kurt Thomas did not play during the playoffs and that would have made a difference in the suns rebounding. One has to wonder if D'Antoni would have played Kurt against them a lot of minutes, but without TT I think KT would have played a lot.

I do not think the suns are going to get another big man worth getting without some kind of trade.

How many times do people need to be told that TT is not an everyday player down low? He's a perimeter guy in a large body. He was able to put a body on some of the bigger players, but that was because he had no choice. Spread that over 82 games, and it wouldn't happen. TT may have defended a little bit down low, but when did he ever "pound it" down low on offense?

 

[nowagimp]

IMO, in every playoff series the Suns played this past season, the Lakers, the Clippers or the Mavericks the strategy for the opposition was to take the ball inside on Phoenix on offense and make them shoot the outside shot on defense by denying penetration, not giving the Suns any crack at second chance points on rebounds, as well as slowing the game down.

This is all true but incomplete. The strategy used by all those teams included wearing down Nash for max minutes using multiple defenders and making him play defense on the offensive end with alot of physical contact. This meant the suns had to double the man that nash was assigned on every possession, which led to even more defensive rebounds. How does this all change with KT, Amare and Banks?? ALOT, the workability of the opponents strategy changes ALOT! It isnt going to be so easy "killing the head of the snake"(popivich), cause the snake will be well-rested and shooting 45% from 3, and penetrating at will while Banks keeps the tempo up and the defensive pressure on when nash sits down.

Recall how the suns pretty much built up leads of 10+ points when Nash was in and then surrendered them when he sat. With DAntoni afraid to rest Nash, he was winded by the 4th quarter. Recall how foul trouble plagued the undersized front line rotations without amare, KT. Guys in foul trouble tend to be tentative rebounders and defenders. Nobody the suns will get will be even close to KT, so adding anyone else is a MINOR change. The suns add Amare, KT, and Banks, and lose TT, overall a big upgrade.

 

[sunsfn]

How many times do people need to be told that TT is not an everyday player down low? He's a perimeter guy in a large body. He was able to put a body on some of the bigger players, but that was because he had no choice. Spread that over 82 games, and it wouldn't happen. TT may have defended a little bit down low, but when did he ever "pound it" down low on offense?

Do you mean those times that he would get a mis match and back down a smaller player and had a great percentage on his shot and go to the line? Or do you mean those times when he put it on the floor and took it to the rim and dunked the ball or just made a layup?

Having said that, TT is not a great defender, but he can play all 3 postions and do it very well, and can do it better than most players you can get for the money.
In fact in my posting that you used, I made it a point to say we played without KT in the playoffs and he is important to this team.

Not sure what your gripe is about an everyday player down low, from quoting my post.?

 

[Chaplin]

Do you mean those times that he would get a mis match and back down a smaller player and had a great percentage on his shot and go to the line? Or do you mean those times when he put it on the floor and took it to the rim and dunked the ball or just made a layup?

Having said that, TT is not a great defender, but he can play all 3 postions and do it very well, and can do it better than most players you can get for the money.
In fact in my posting that you used, I made it a point to say we played without KT in the playoffs and he is important to this team.

Not sure what your gripe is about an everyday player down low, from quoting my post.?

Tim Thomas is NOT an everyday player down low. I'm sure if you did a comprehensive analysis of every time he scored, it most definitely would NOT be down low. It would exclusively be on the perimeter.

Now, there are certain advantages to having a big guy on the perimeter, and we exploited that with our style, but to say that Tim Thomas would solve our problems down low is a fallacy.

 

[sunsfn]

Tim Thomas is NOT an everyday player down low. I'm sure if you did a comprehensive analysis of every time he scored, it most definitely would NOT be down low. It would exclusively be on the perimeter.

Now, there are certain advantages to having a big guy on the perimeter, and we exploited that with our style, but to say that Tim Thomas would solve our problems down low is a fallacy.

Chaplin, I am not sure what you are arguing about? I have not said TT is the answer to getting a big that would solve our problems down low?
I have said that for the money and the way he fits this team he was probably the best we had a chance to get unless they make a trade.

I believe he has an inside game, but there are certainly many big men that have a better inside game offensively and defensively.

I want you to tell me who that person you are going to get without trading anyone from the suns next year that will do a better job than TT did last year?

 

[Chaplin]

Chaplin, I am not sure what you are arguing about? I have not said TT is the answer to getting a big that would solve our problems down low?
I have said that for the money and the way he fits this team he was probably the best we had a chance to get unless they make a trade.

I believe he has an inside game, but there are certainly many big men that have a better inside game offensively and defensively.

I want you to tell me who that person you are going to get without trading anyone from the suns next year that will do a better job than TT did last year?

You said that having TT would solve our big man problems down low.

This is the original post:

Originally Posted by sunsfn
Mainstreet said
-----------------------------------------------------------
The Suns had a better record than the Lakers and Clippers and theoretically should have been able to dispose of them without going to seven games with each team. Yes, the Suns eventually won, but it was clear to me these teams had figured out a way to beat the Suns... pound the ball inside on offense and only give the Suns one shot at the basket on defense... also slow the game now as much as possible. The Mavs continued the same strategy.
-----------------------------------------------

I think they had their man in TT but did not sign him.

But remember, Kurt Thomas did not play during the playoffs and that would have made a difference in the suns rebounding. One has to wonder if D'Antoni would have played Kurt against them a lot of minutes, but without TT I think KT would have played a lot.

I do not think the suns are going to get another big man worth getting without some kind of trade.

Your post infers that we could have done the same thing with TT, but since we didn't resign him, we cannot. I think that inside presence will not benefit from having TT--if we would have kept him, he would exclusively be the greatest help with spreading the opponents defense--having a big guy play near the perimeter only helps our team. So in that respect, TT would have been a good keeper, at least until he regresses and sinks into his shell, which is entirely possible and probably why we didn't sign him.

If you're not saying that TT would solve all our problems down low, then I misread you, and I apologize. But the general trend of this board is to overrate Tim Thomas and not give him the credit where credit is due--a big man who can shoot on the perimeter and can occasionally body up a big player on defense. That's pretty much all he can do, since he can't block shots and is a mediocre rebounder.

 

[Mainstreet]

This is all true but incomplete. The strategy used by all those teams included wearing down Nash for max minutes using multiple defenders and making him play defense on the offensive end with alot of physical contact. This meant the suns had to double the man that nash was assigned on every possession, which led to even more defensive rebounds. How does this all change with KT, Amare and Banks?? ALOT, the workability of the opponents strategy changes ALOT! It isnt going to be so easy "killing the head of the snake"(popivich), cause the snake will be well-rested and shooting 45% from 3, and penetrating at will while Banks keeps the tempo up and the defensive pressure on when nash sits down.

Recall how the suns pretty much built up leads of 10+ points when Nash was in and then surrendered them when he sat. With DAntoni afraid to rest Nash, he was winded by the 4th quarter. Recall how foul trouble plagued the undersized front line rotations without amare, KT. Guys in foul trouble tend to be tentative rebounders and defenders. Nobody the suns will get will be even close to KT, so adding anyone else is a MINOR change. The suns add Amare, KT, and Banks, and lose TT, overall a big upgrade.

Actually Nowagimp, you probably come the closest to understanding what I am trying to say. I feel good about the acquisition of Banks and if the Suns team is healthy come playoff time I will be happy.

My primarily concern is about making a Minor adjustment to the Suns roster. It has nothing to do with TT (he's gone), Amare, Diaw, KT, Marion, whoever. I just want the Suns to add a 4/5 type player for depth in case of injury and/or foul trouble. As long as the player can rebound both offensively and defensively and play a little defense I'm not overly concerned about height. I used Marcus Fizer as just an example of the type player that could help the Suns... an undersized PF that can rebound. He was brought up by another team last season from the NBADL so he was cheap.

I'm just saying the 12th man on the roster need not be a garbage player, but a possible contributor in the right situation. A rebounder who knows his role if called upon to play inside and hit the boards. I just do not see Marks and Burke fulfilling this role. If the Suns don't need such a player because the team is healthy and not in foul trouble, I don't mind if D'Antoni sets him there on the bench. Think of it as an insurance policy for the Reggie Evans of the world or call it as a possible game time adjustment to have such a player.

Other players that come to mind are players like Massenburg or Lonny Baxter. I just know that there are some undersized PF's that are probably going to be waived or are floating around out there looking for a home on the cheap and I would like for the Suns to look at adding such a player for depth at the 4/5.

I just think the Suns can do better than Marks and Burke at the end of the bench. I only want to add a banger to keep them company.

 

[Chaplin]

The situation at the end of the bench is a little confusing, to say the least. We now have Marks and Burke, but isn't the combo of Skita and Burke better? I know it doesn't really matter all that much, but would we rather have Skita than Marks? I think the fans might, but the team must have seen something wrong with Skita to make them forsake him for Marks.

 

[sunsfn]

Mainstreet,

You have mentioned Massenburg a few times in some of your posts. I think I answered one of them?
Massenburg won a title in 2005 with the Spurs and did not play last year in the league.
In July 2007 he will be 40 years old, I think he is done.

 

[Mainstreet]

Mainstreet,

You have mentioned Massenburg a few times in some of your posts. I think I answered one of them?
Massenburg won a title in 2005 with the Spurs and did not play last year in the league.
In July 2007 he will be 40 years old, I think he is done.

Probably. Sorry if I did not catch it.

I only mentioned Massenburg because he is type of player that could help the Suns. I'm not trying to deal in specifics here because I do not know who might be available and the salary implications. I am going to watch the waiver wire and if there is a player there I like I will try to mention him.

I did not see the down side for the Suns in picking up Fizer last season. If he fit great. If he hurt team chemistry cut him. He would have provided more depth and bulk on the Suns frontline last season.

 

[Mainstreet]

The situation at the end of the bench is a little confusing, to say the least. We now have Marks and Burke, but isn't the combo of Skita and Burke better? I know it doesn't really matter all that much, but would we rather have Skita than Marks? I think the fans might, but the team must have seen something wrong with Skita to make them forsake him for Marks.

I was a Skita advocate for a long time but he obviously did not want to play in the NBA because he did not want to gain strength or carry added weight. So I had no problem with the Suns letting him go. IMO, if Burke does not want to play inside he is not much help because the Suns regulars space the floor quite nicely. Really, in Marks, I do not know much about him other than he is supposed to be a shooter.

I just want the Suns to add a player to their roster upfront that brings something different to the table, a physical presence, especially in regards to rebounding. I wouldn't mind if the Suns kept a young project player like Lampe on the 15 man roster but I do not see him as NBA ready yet and he is not the type player I'm looking for right now. Again I want a banger and a rebounder even if he is undersized preferably with some veteran experience.