Why cant we sign Wilson

[Carddan]

DRC was two days late getting to camp. Graves cannot do a 1st round deal to save his life. Signing a guy picked #31 should be easy, but we'll see.

The Fitz fiasco last season hand cuffed us from signing key free agents last season, like Alan Faneca. He could have saved face by getting this done earlier. He didn't.

DRC missed one day, two workouts. http://www.azcardinals.com/news/detail.php?PRKey=2430 http://www.azcardinals.com/news/detail.php?PRKey=2435

Not signing players like Faneca is a good thing. Talk about backing yourself into a cap corner...

If AW doesn't get re-signed I'll be disappointed. If Dansby and/or Q do not accept a reasonable offer I'll be disappointed in them, not Graves. This "game" isn't over, it's only halftime.

 

[Duckjake]

I'll take Graves' patience over Snyder's knee-jerk, cap burning, short-sighted signings.

Snyder's Redskins are 9-1 vs Graves' Cardinals.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Wow... I'm not saying Graves should be up for GM of the year, but you're being way over the top here.
He did get deals done with Fitz, Q, Dockett, Berry, DRC, Campbell, Hightower, Warner...
His management of the Q situation has been spot-on in my opinion, and has now led to Q dumping Rosenhaus!
He will get the Wilson deal done - soon...

What specifically would you prefer to see happen? He should just cave to every whim from the players? Dockett wants to re-do a deal he just "re-did" - so Graves should bend over and kindly take it up the butt??

Huh? If you are going to tout Graves at least speak to something he actually is is responsible for. Like his firm handshake and warm smile.

Lets break down those "signings"

Fitz- Forced to re-do because of the stupid initial contract he signed. Fitz had the team by the balls and got paid like it. I'm not sure what you are giving credit to Rod here for.

Q - Riiiiight. Q was a young guy who was making 2nd round money and outperformed it. So Graves went to him with a above minumum deal and that deal is the REASON we are in the predicament we are in now. I am not saying that was stupid but I am not sure you should give him credit for anything. The player is pissed about the contract. And whether you belive Q or not its pretty obvious that when he says the organization "lied" to him hes talking about Graves. I wouldn't say hes handled Q with aplomb.

Dockett - See above.

Berry - was a retread. Signed here and played awesome first year or two. Then played sporadically and reupped at a low deal. After telling the team he didn't want to go anywhere. What exactly did Graves do other then hand him a pen, again?

DRC - This is how low our expectations are? We are jumping up and down because he got the #16 pick in on time? (IIRC it was a couple days late actually) If you remember it was every team BUT us that would get the 1st rounder in on a yearly basis. In fact we were like the first team to have a 3rd rounder hold out (Johnny McWilliams). I think he might have set your realistic expectations on what makes a "good" GM a tad low.

Campbell - If you think I am not giving him much credit for the #16 pick I am now supposed to be impressed by getting the 2nd rounder in? What team DOESN'T get their 2nd round pick in? How is this a "notch on his belt" or a resume add?

Hightower - LOL ....I am sure you can look at the previous two statements and fill in what I am going to say yourself.

Warner - This might be the funniest of all. So when Warner basically lost all leverage by telling the team he wasn't moving his family, wanted to stay here, and wasn't going to even seriously consider another team AND THEN was forced to do a song and dance with SF because Rod couldn't be proactive and get something done beforehand with a PLAYER WHO WANTED TO BE HERE AND NO WHERE ELSE? That was a national embarassement AND we ended giving him the money he wanted anyway. PLease explain how to me that was handeled properly by any measure other the final result - which if a monkey with a balloon was the GM - would have gotten done.

And a guy like Wilson who is basically said everything but I am staying here the rest of my life is not signed yet? That doesn't worry you just a tad that our GM is just a little...slow?

Seriously? It's like everyone wants to forget the previous 8 years and give good ol Rod a slap on the back now just because. Who is this guys PR agent?

 

[Arizona's Finest]

I cannot endorse this. Denny Green and Whiz had more to do with the Superbowl than Graves. Green helped Graves recruit the right people in free agency during his time here and Whisenhunt brought the wisdom and personnel to seal the deal.

Graves doesn't have the fortitude to negotiate with agents, get big deals done in a timely fashion (see Warner) and get first round draft picks signed in time for training camp (hasn't happened since 2003).

If the Cards want to be considered a perennial threat to win a championship, they need to be solid in all facets of the game, and that includes the front office. Graves represents what the Cards used to be: unmotivated, pliable, and a pushover. We need an experienced GM with some brass, experience and the ability to get deals done and move on to the next project.

Wilson should be a slam dunk deal. I understand the hold up with Dansby and Boldin, but AW shouldn't be a topic still.

He speaks for me.

I just don't get all these Graves apologists. Its like every body feels bad for him or something and now that we have FINALLY had success we want to gravy train Good ol' Rod onto the bandwagon.

So we have had success the last two years. Does that all of a sudden coincide with a certain recent hiring? Oh wait no - Rod Graves must have gotten REAL smart the last 2 years obviously.

It just doesn't seem like some want to use any common sense or logic when it comes to this guy.

At the end of the day it doesn't really matter who is responsible for the recent success I guess. As long as there is success you all can attribute it to Big Red for all I care.

I just think you are missing the boat. And I think what happens in the FO the next few years will prove me right.

Guess we will see.

 

[lauraw]

What Arizona's Finest said!!!

 

[Carddan]

I don't think I've been an apologist for Graves but I do think there is some room for patience. Since moving into UoP much has changed in how the team seems to do business. I will never know how much of that is due to Bidwill Jr. taking the reins. I would also credit much of where the team stands now to Coach Whisenhunt. But then, who hired him and talked him into coming where no one has won before? Sure, I have a lot of doubts about Graves because his tenure includes some bleak years. On the other hand, it is May following a NFC Championship season. Let's see how it looks in August before we crown him or Crown him, shall we?

 

[82CardsGrad]

Huh? If you are going to tout Graves at least speak to something he actually is is responsible for. Like his firm handshake and warm smile.

Lets break down those "signings"

Fitz- Forced to re-do because of the stupid initial contract he signed. Fitz had the team by the balls and got paid like it. I'm not sure what you are giving credit to Rod here for.

Q - Riiiiight. Q was a young guy who was making 2nd round money and outperformed it. So Graves went to him with a above minumum deal and that deal is the REASON we are in the predicament we are in now. I am not saying that was stupid but I am not sure you should give him credit for anything. The player is pissed about the contract. And whether you belive Q or not its pretty obvious that when he says the organization "lied" to him hes talking about Graves. I wouldn't say hes handled Q with aplomb.

Dockett - See above.

Berry - was a retread. Signed here and played awesome first year or two. Then played sporadically and reupped at a low deal. After telling the team he didn't want to go anywhere. What exactly did Graves do other then hand him a pen, again?

DRC - This is how low our expectations are? We are jumping up and down because he got the #16 pick in on time? (IIRC it was a couple days late actually) If you remember it was every team BUT us that would get the 1st rounder in on a yearly basis. In fact we were like the first team to have a 3rd rounder hold out (Johnny McWilliams). I think he might have set your realistic expectations on what makes a "good" GM a tad low.

Campbell - If you think I am not giving him much credit for the #16 pick I am now supposed to be impressed by getting the 2nd rounder in? What team DOESN'T get their 2nd round pick in? How is this a "notch on his belt" or a resume add?

Hightower - LOL ....I am sure you can look at the previous two statements and fill in what I am going to say yourself.

Warner - This might be the funniest of all. So when Warner basically lost all leverage by telling the team he wasn't moving his family, wanted to stay here, and wasn't going to even seriously consider another team AND THEN was forced to do a song and dance with SF because Rod couldn't be proactive and get something done beforehand with a PLAYER WHO WANTED TO BE HERE AND NO WHERE ELSE? That was a national embarassement AND we ended giving him the money he wanted anyway. PLease explain how to me that was handeled properly by any measure other the final result - which if a monkey with a balloon was the GM - would have gotten done.

And a guy like Wilson who is basically said everything but I am staying here the rest of my life is not signed yet? That doesn't worry you just a tad that our GM is just a little...slow?

Seriously? It's like everyone wants to forget the previous 8 years and give good ol Rod a slap on the back now just because. Who is this guys PR agent?

You might have missed my initial quote where I said I don't believe Graves is up for GM of the Year... So don't get me wrong here. I am by far a pure Graves apologist or admirer... However, I think you guys are going way over the edge in your hate tossed his way.
I'll gladly forget the previous 8 years if Graves is able to continue to do what he's done over the last 2-3 years.
IMO - he needs to get the Wilson deal done. I believe he will. I honestly don't care how long it takes. The bottom line is that it gets done and again, I believe it's in process...
Not sure where else you would like to take this? If you want to bury the guy for his past dealings - go ahead... As for me, I see a guy who was involved in bringing in a great young head coach, who collaborated with that great young head coach and his staff to produce two back to back impressive drafts. And who IMO, has been dealing quite well with the likes of Q, Dockett and others...
At the end of the day, time will tell how effective Graves has been. If he can't get the Wilson deal done, he's toast... Q? Dockett? Dansby? Guess we'll find out in due time...

 

[joeshmo]

Fitz- Forced to re-do because of the stupid initial contract he signed. Fitz had the team by the balls and got paid like it. I'm not sure what you are giving credit to Rod here for.

Thats the business of dealing with a top 5 pick. That stupid initial contract he signed is the same exact contract any other GM in the league would have to sign their top 5 pick to. The great Bill Parcells had to give the same type of contract to Jake Long last year. Why do people keep bashing Graves for giving out a league wide standard contract to a top 5 rookie, if your going to bash Graves for that then you should bash the other 31 GM's of the league as well.

Q - Riiiiight. Q was a young guy who was making 2nd round money and outperformed it. So Graves went to him with a above minumum deal and that deal is the REASON we are in the predicament we are in now. I am not saying that was stupid but I am not sure you should give him credit for anything. The player is pissed about the contract. And whether you belive Q or not its pretty obvious that when he says the organization "lied" to him hes talking about Graves. I wouldn't say hes handled Q with aplomb.

Dockett - See above.

Shouldnt Graves actually be applauded for having the foresight in getting those two under a 2nd contract at below market value. I say kudos to Graves on those two situations, and a big booooo to the players agent who actually told their players it was a good idea. Graves without a doubt did in awesome job with those two second contracts, how that can be twisted into a negative just isnt being real about the facts.

DRC - This is how low our expectations are? We are jumping up and down because he got the #16 pick in on time? (IIRC it was a couple days late actually) If you remember it was every team BUT us that would get the 1st rounder in on a yearly basis. In fact we were like the first team to have a 3rd rounder hold out (Johnny McWilliams). I think he might have set your realistic expectations on what makes a "good" GM a tad low.

First, He was one day late. Camp started on the 25th and he signed on the 25th, was in the next day. Second, the hyperbole is so thick, it was not every team but us that would get their 1st rounder in on time, on average 10 teams a year have a rookie that misses at least 1 day of camp since the 2000 draft. And McWilliams was in 96 so not sure how that applies to Graves or anyone else in the front office?

Look I am not a Graves apologist everyone knows this, I know for a fact how bad his negotiating style is (slow, plodding, sometimes condencending, slow to return phone calls and emails, have all been words when describing him from some people I know that are in the know). But for all that, the guy isnt nearly as bad as some try to make him out to be ever since he got full control in his GM duties. He orchastrated, created, and hired kick ass scouting department that I know for a fact other teams are jealous of, for one. And we havent lost a single key player yet, yet people are talking like we have already lost Wilson, Dansby, Dockett, and Boldin. Why the hand wringing over events(losing those 4 guys) that havent happened yet and may not even happen. Lets use the facts instead of hyperbole and "what ifs" when actually judging anyone, not just Graves..

Also, I know for a fact that unless some major breakdown happens, both sides are in agreement, Wilson will have a new contract before the season starts, most of that confidence is from Wilsons side if you really want to know, thats how confident they are.

 

[DoTheDew]

Snyder's Redskins are 9-1 vs Graves' Cardinals.

How many times have the Redskins gone to the Super Bowl under Snyder's great management?

 

[CaptTurbo]

It does matter how long it takes to sign Wilson. Id liek to finish it and move on to othe rplayers and draft picks and Graves has already said he can only do 1 at a time.

 

[Carddan]

Joeshmo, thanks for your perspective. It reassures my opinion that it is too early to jump to conclusions. You gave an unbiased opinion with positives and negatives. While some of the criticism towards Graves has roots in historical fact, I believe that some of the animosity is rooted in the long years of futility we endured. Continued success will temper the extremes. We need to repeat as NFC West Champions.

It would also be nice to get AW signed, Wells to TC on time, and Dansby+Boldin re-done if they are reasonable in their expectations. (In that order of priority, although on a time-line I guess I'd go with Dansby, AW, Wells, Boldin since it is "one-at-a-time")

 

[Treefiddy]

Don't we normally need to overpay draft picks BECAUSE we are Arizona and no one wanted to play here in years past? It kindof puts your GM into a crap situation when every rookie wants even more money than they would get if they were on a different team.

I'm not dissapointed in the way the Kurt Warner situation was handled. Yes, we could've signed him for less mid-season, but if the team wins the division and gets defeated by Atlanta in the first round, I think that the Matt Leinart era begins there. I believe Kurt Warner is only a Cardinal right now because of his playoff performance. Then, once Graves knew he would have to fork over a ton of money to keep him, tried to play chicken with Warner and lost that game.

Graves basically took two gambles, the first was that Warner either would not stay healthy, or take us to a Super Bowl. The second was that Warner wanted to stay here so bad that he would take a lower contract deal. Warner beat the odds on the first one, and played his cards well with his visit to San Fran.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Thats the business of dealing with a top 5 pick. That stupid initial contract he signed is the same exact contract any other GM in the league would have to sign their top 5 pick to. The great Bill Parcells had to give the same type of contract to Jake Long last year. Why do people keep bashing Graves for giving out a league wide standard contract to a top 5 rookie, if your going to bash Graves for that then you should bash the other 31 GM's of the league as well.



Shouldnt Graves actually be applauded for having the foresight in getting those two under a 2nd contract at below market value. I say kudos to Graves on those two situations, and a big booooo to the players agent who actually told their players it was a good idea. Graves without a doubt did in awesome job with those two second contracts, how that can be twisted into a negative just isnt being real about the facts.



First, He was one day late. Camp started on the 25th and he signed on the 25th, was in the next day. Second, the hyperbole is so thick, it was not every team but us that would get their 1st rounder in on time, on average 10 teams a year have a rookie that misses at least 1 day of camp since the 2000 draft. And McWilliams was in 96 so not sure how that applies to Graves or anyone else in the front office?

Look I am not a Graves apologist everyone knows this, I know for a fact how bad his negotiating style is (slow, plodding, sometimes condencending, slow to return phone calls and emails, have all been words when describing him from some people I know that are in the know). But for all that, the guy isnt nearly as bad as some try to make him out to be ever since he got full control in his GM duties. He orchastrated, created, and hired kick ass scouting department that I know for a fact other teams are jealous of, for one. And we havent lost a single key player yet, yet people are talking like we have already lost Wilson, Dansby, Dockett, and Boldin. Why the hand wringing over events(losing those 4 guys) that havent happened yet and may not even happen. Lets use the facts instead of hyperbole and "what ifs" when actually judging anyone, not just Graves..

Also, I know for a fact that unless some major breakdown happens, both sides are in agreement, Wilson will have a new contract before the season starts, most of that confidence is from Wilsons side if you really want to know, thats how confident they are.

Members take note. That is a great response post.

Joe I just happen to think Graves was more of an innocent bystander in most of this new found success much like a Horace Grant was to a eary 90's Bulls team. If Horace is the guy leading your basketball team you are screwed and his flaws will be more pronounced.

But if there is a support system of a bunch of studs (in the Cardinals scenario Mike B and Wiz) then he doesn't have the type of personlity that f--- up enough stuff or makes waves and is a "good soldier". But that doesn't mean I am giving him the primary credit for achieving success.

Its obvious you have more insight into the FO then I do and I had not thought about the way he put together the scouting staff. That deserves credit.

But his main functions as a GM - Overseeing personnel acquisitions, negotiating contracts, etc. I just think he drops the ball more often then not. You can't tell me with players who have visibly signed off on not going anywhere and he still takes time to get them signed that not a bad thing and a pattern that will ultimately bite us in the ass. It didn't happen to hurt us with Warner and it might not hurt us with AW but you can't tell me its not an advantage both cap space wise and perception wise to get this stuff done early and out of the way.

I do applaud him for the Dockett and Boldin contracts. I just wish he would handle the aftermath much better then he has. And no his track record of drafting (pre Denny and pre Wiz) and getting those guys in on time is non existent. That was my point with DRC and the like. Its not like he has all of a sudden started geting those 1st rounder in on time. He still drags his feet.

Again the Fitz contract might be normal. But I have to belive a guy like Parcells or a more competent GM in general would have gotten something done the offseason prior (it was obvious Larry was a star after Year 2) and not wasted so much valuable cap space and offseason time last year. Its not for sure we would have spent it on Faneca but whats the harm in having all your options available? There isn't any.

So sure I am not a Graves basher perse. I am just giving him VERY little credit because of this whole turnaround. Its my contention that if he had more power during the HC hiring that Rivera or the Sherminator would have been hired and we would be SOC. Do I know that for a fact? No I am not in those offices. But all reports during that HC search time indicated that was likely the case and that Mike B was ultimately the guy who pushed Wiz's name to Dad.

So like I said at the beginning give credit to whomever you want. Its a hell of alot better then assigning blame.

But to carry on the contrived Bulls analogy I think as fans we deserve maybe a Lebron James or Kobe Bryant to pair with our "Michael" and "Scottie" in terms of FO decision making.

I want a guy in the GM role who brings more to the table to help Wiz and Mike B. Not just a guy who is adequate because he doesn't take anything off.

 

[cardsloco]

Thats the business of dealing with a top 5 pick. That stupid initial contract he signed is the same exact contract any other GM in the league would have to sign their top 5 pick to. The great Bill Parcells had to give the same type of contract to Jake Long last year. Why do people keep bashing Graves for giving out a league wide standard contract to a top 5 rookie, if your going to bash Graves for that then you should bash the other 31 GM's of the league as well.



Shouldnt Graves actually be applauded for having the foresight in getting those two under a 2nd contract at below market value. I say kudos to Graves on those two situations, and a big booooo to the players agent who actually told their players it was a good idea. Graves without a doubt did in awesome job with those two second contracts, how that can be twisted into a negative just isnt being real about the fact


First, He was one day late. Camp started on the 25th and he signed on the 25th, was in the next day. Second, the hyperbole is so thick, it was not every team but us that would get their 1st rounder in on time, on average 10 teams a year have a rookie that misses at least 1 day of camp since the 2000 draft. And McWilliams was in 96 so not sure how that applies to Graves or anyone else in the front office?

Look I am not a Graves apologist everyone knows this, I know for a fact how bad his negotiating style is (slow, plodding, sometimes condencending, slow to return phone calls and emails, have all been words when describing him from some people I know that are in the know). But for all that, the guy isnt nearly as bad as some try to make him out to be ever since he got full control in his GM duties. He orchastrated, created, and hired kick ass scouting department that I know for a fact other teams are jealous of, for one. And we havent lost a single key player yet, yet people are talking like we have already lost Wilson, Dansby, Dockett, and Boldin. Why the hand wringing over events(losing those 4 guys) that havent happened yet and may not even happen. Lets use the facts instead of hyperbole and "what ifs" when actually judging anyone, not just Graves..

Also, I know for a fact that unless some major breakdown happens, both sides are in agreement, Wilson will have a new contract before the season starts, most of that confidence is from Wilsons side if you really want to know, thats how confident they are.

Best post in this thread!

 

[john h]

Carddan approves of this message.

Bottom line like always it is all about money for both sides. The players want more and the owners want to pay less. One has to wonder just how much authority our GM has when it comes to spending the money. Does he have to get the final ok from the owner's son? If the GM has to run back and forth between the Agent and the Owner it will take some time to get this done. More people in a chain of command the slower the process of anything getting done. Jerry Jones can do a deal in a minute which is a nice way to do business. He needs to talk to no one but cap specialist which he probably does also.

 

[Mitch]

Best post in this thread!

I concur. Outstandingly fair assessment, Joe.

 

[bg7brd]

Thats the business of dealing with a top 5 pick. That stupid initial contract he signed is the same exact contract any other GM in the league would have to sign their top 5 pick to. The great Bill Parcells had to give the same type of contract to Jake Long last year. Why do people keep bashing Graves for giving out a league wide standard contract to a top 5 rookie, if your going to bash Graves for that then you should bash the other 31 GM's of the league as well.



Shouldnt Graves actually be applauded for having the foresight in getting those two under a 2nd contract at below market value. I say kudos to Graves on those two situations, and a big booooo to the players agent who actually told their players it was a good idea. Graves without a doubt did in awesome job with those two second contracts, how that can be twisted into a negative just isnt being real about the facts.



First, He was one day late. Camp started on the 25th and he signed on the 25th, was in the next day. Second, the hyperbole is so thick, it was not every team but us that would get their 1st rounder in on time, on average 10 teams a year have a rookie that misses at least 1 day of camp since the 2000 draft. And McWilliams was in 96 so not sure how that applies to Graves or anyone else in the front office?

Look I am not a Graves apologist everyone knows this, I know for a fact how bad his negotiating style is (slow, plodding, sometimes condencending, slow to return phone calls and emails, have all been words when describing him from some people I know that are in the know). But for all that, the guy isnt nearly as bad as some try to make him out to be ever since he got full control in his GM duties. He orchastrated, created, and hired kick ass scouting department that I know for a fact other teams are jealous of, for one. And we havent lost a single key player yet, yet people are talking like we have already lost Wilson, Dansby, Dockett, and Boldin. Why the hand wringing over events(losing those 4 guys) that havent happened yet and may not even happen. Lets use the facts instead of hyperbole and "what ifs" when actually judging anyone, not just Graves..

Also, I know for a fact that unless some major breakdown happens, both sides are in agreement, Wilson will have a new contract before the season starts, most of that confidence is from Wilsons side if you really want to know, thats how confident they are.

Once again Joe you're the voice of reason. I agree with you 100%. Nice post.

 

[Duckjake]

How many times have the Redskins gone to the Super Bowl under Snyder's great management?

Sorry but when somebody kicks our butts 9 times in 10 tries over a 10 year period whatever else they do against other teams is totally irrelevant.

Oddly enough the Cards only win came in 2000 when the 3-13 Cards stole one 16-15 behind A Williams 103 yard fumble return for a td.

 

[lauraw]

You got it JoeSchmo!!

 

[40yearfan]

Best post in this thread!

Best avatar in this thread.