Why I don't want Durant

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

You've forgotten (or are discounting) how high expectations were for O'Neal when he came to the Suns. And they gave up a guy who was still in his prime and had made four All-Star teams over the last five seasons, so it's not like the price was cheap.

Also, Durant put up those numbers while missing 1/3 of his team's games. Great "per-game" averages lose a bit of luster when you figure in all of those zeroes.

And I can only speak for myself, but my expectations were high (though not that high) with the shaq acquisition not because I thought we were getting superstar shaq, but because I thought we were getting the first adequate center that amare would ever play with. Whereas with Durant I’m excited not only about how it will open up book, but because we would be getting superstar Durant.

 

[elindholm]

E you’re just not being realistic. In the year before he was traded shaq averaged 17/7. In the year in which we acquired him he was averaging 14/8 in 33 games. Who cares what peoples expectations were? Shaq wasn’t remotely close to producing what Durant is at present. Shaq was WAY off his career best numbers. Durant just put up his 3rd best scoring average of his career, almost spot on his career average rebounding numbers and his best assist numbers of his career while meeting or exceeding all of his career average shooting percentages. The only ways they are close are they were older and are HUGE names. That’s it.

Oh god, it's the brotherly tag-team again. What do you guys do, hang out in alleys together at night looking for people to jump?

Yes, Durant is closer to his peak now than O'Neal was when the Suns acquired him. A little closer, a medium amount closer, a lot closer, who cares? That's not the point.

O'Neal was absolutely brought in to try to get the Suns over the hump. The Nash/D'Antoni Suns had made the WCF a couple of times but didn't have enough beef to accompany Stoudemire. It was an act of desperation, just like this current flirtation with Durant is.

Regardless of the particulars of where the players are in their careers, the Durant situation is a lot closer to O'Neal than it is to Barkley (or Garnett).

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

To me this is fairly simple:

Ayton is leaving. We likely aren’t replacing him with enough talent to make a run to a championship. So to just make that trade means we are running out the clock with Paul’s contract and have to hope we acquire another stud somewhere down the line. But that will likely mean sacrificing some current talent. This team becomes a 45-52 win and fade squad.

We have a unique set of circumstances at present. We have a good deal of talent. We have some young talent including a stud in book and some limited ceiling talents in bridges and cam Johnson (remember I’m counting Ayton gone), and perhaps whatever we get from an aytin trade. We also have a great player in Paul with an understandably narrow window to leverage. So we have two studs, though one is fading. Typically teams are looking for that third stud and are happy when they have assets to gamble when the rare stud becomes available. I know cheese has long stated he expected that bridges would someday the key piece in a trade to get us the third stud (though he had assumed one of those three would be Ayton alongside book). With the exit of Ayton and Paul’s looking sunset the timeline changes for putting together a big three. And lo and behold a superstar has become available. And one of the best, in Durant. And not only that, but he wants to come to the suns. It’s never a given that the star that becomes available wants to play for your team. Is he old? Yeah. Older than any of us desire? Yeah. But our window is now narrow and these circumstances don’t present themselves often. I think you gotta swing.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Oh god, it's the brotherly tag-team again. What do you guys do, hang out in alleys together at night looking for people to jump?

Yes, Durant is closer to his peak now than O'Neal was when the Suns acquired him. A little closer, a medium amount closer, a lot closer, who cares? That's not the point.

O'Neal was absolutely brought in to try to get the Suns over the hump. The Nash/D'Antoni Suns had made the WCF a couple of times but didn't have enough beef to accompany Stoudemire. It was an act of desperation, just like this current flirtation with Durant is.

Regardless of the particulars of where the players are in their careers, the Durant situation is a lot closer to O'Neal than it is to Barkley (or Garnett).

I guess because we are related aren’t allowed to have opinions or both post. Hey we are separate people who both think your analysis is awful. Who cares that we share parents?

And you’re only focused on age. We are focused on ability. Which one matters more on the court?

 

[Chaplin]

To me this is fairly simple:

Ayton is leaving. We likely aren’t replacing him with enough talent to make a run to a championship. So to just make that trade means we are running out the clock with Paul’s contract and have to hope we acquire another stud somewhere down the line. But that will likely mean sacrificing some current talent. This team becomes a 45-52 win and fade squad.

We have a unique set of circumstances at present. We have a good deal of talent. We have some young talent including a stud in book and some limited ceiling talents in bridges and cam Johnson (remember I’m counting Ayton gone), and perhaps whatever we get from an aytin trade. We also have a great player in Paul with an understandably narrow window to leverage. So we have two studs, though one is fading. Typically teams are looking for that third stud and are happy when they have assets to gamble when the rare stud becomes available. I know cheese has long stated he expected that bridges would someday the key piece in a trade to get us the third stud (though he had assumed one of those three would be Ayton alongside book). With the exit of Ayton and Paul’s looking sunset the timeline changes for putting together a big three. And lo and behold a superstar has become available. And one of the best, in Durant. And not only that, but he wants to come to the suns. It’s never a given that the star that becomes available wants to play for your team. Is he old? Yeah. Older than any of us desire? Yeah. But our window is now narrow and these circumstances don’t present themselves often. I think you gotta swing.

I believe we are also the only "contender" that still has their entire roster of draft picks in the future.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Oh god, it's the brotherly tag-team again. What do you guys do, hang out in alleys together at night looking for people to jump?

Just put us on ignore, Eric. The board doesn’t need this trash.

 

[elindholm]

I guess because we are related aren’t allowed to have opinions or both post. Hey we are separate people who both think your analysis is awful. Who cares that we share parents?

You egg each other on, trying to one-up each other's level of hostility. It's juvenile. Come on, I didn't call anything you said "awful." Keep breathing.

And you’re only focused on age. We are focused on ability. Which one matters more on the court?

Ability, but I'd say that availability matters even more, and drive almost as much.

 

[Sunburn]

I believe we are also the only "contender" that still has their entire roster of draft picks in the future.

Exactly. Most of our core is young. We still have a bright future. We can still make huge moves without hitching everything to the Paul timeline.

Ayton, CamJ/Mikal, 4 firsts and 3 pick swaps will beat just about any package anyone else can put together. What if we sell it all for Durant, he declines or throws some hissy fit, and jokic/embiid becomes available next year?

Or we can divide those assets up and acquire multiple high level talents.

Durant wanting to come here is no accident. We're an attractive destination now. If there are red flags, let's not marry the first hot chick that shows interest.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Exactly. Most of our core is young. We still have a bright future. We can still make huge moves without hitching everything to the Paul timeline.

Ayton, CamJ/Mikal, 4 firsts and 3 pick swaps will beat just about any package anyone else can put together. What if we sell it all for Durant, he declines or throws some hissy fit, and jokic/embiid becomes available next year?

Or we can divide those assets up and acquire multiple high level talents.

Durant wanting to come here is no accident. We're an attractive destination now. If there are red flags, let's not marry the first hot chick that shows interest.

You wrote the key sentence here. We’re an attractive destination… NOW. Coming off a 64 win year with a confounding ending. Now, fast forward a year… we will have sold Ayton for pennies on the dollar, CP3 is a year older (and might look worse) and we likely end up a 6 seed or in the play-in tournament that gets bounced in the first round next off-season. That team ceases to be that attractive team.

AND we don’t have the attractive pieces (namely Ayton) to make a deal next off-season.

 

[Chaplin]

Exactly. Most of our core is young. We still have a bright future. We can still make huge moves without hitching everything to the Paul timeline.

Ayton, CamJ/Mikal, 4 firsts and 3 pick swaps will beat just about any package anyone else can put together. What if we sell it all for Durant, he declines or throws some hissy fit, and jokic/embiid becomes available next year?

Or we can divide those assets up and acquire multiple high level talents.

Durant wanting to come here is no accident. We're an attractive destination now. If there are red flags, let's not marry the first hot chick that shows interest.

You can say that in virtually every year, just fill in the blanks with whoever is available. At some point you have to take the chance. Again, we want a championship. If this is the best way to get one next year or the year after, you have to take it. This isn't acquiring Eric Gordon just so you can make the playoffs again in 2023, this is for Larry O'Brien.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

You egg each other on, trying to one-up each other's level of hostility. It's juvenile. Come on, I didn't call anything you said "awful." Keep breathing.




Ability, but I'd say that availability matters even more, and drive almost as much.

No it’s just a juvenile attempt to belittle our separate perspectives on your comments. And I post as I read. I don’t look ahead. So I’m not looking to see what cheese posted to “one-up” his level of “hostility.” But thanks for the personal attack.

Back to hoops (which was all I was discussing before you decided to bring familial relations onto the board): yes availability is crucial, obviously. If that’s your primary focus then yeah, they’re both old. But again, what they each bring/brought to the court at the point of acquisition has mountains between them. As for motivation, shaq had none. He had won multiple championships and even won one without Kobe with the heat. Durant is definitely seeking his “own” championship without the warriors. If the league talking heads are to be believed he desperately wants to shed the rep that he just tagged along with the warriors - a rep which only became hotter with the warriors now winning before and after Durant. He’s motivated, shaq was . . . well, old fat shaq.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Exactly. Most of our core is young. We still have a bright future. We can still make huge moves without hitching everything to the Paul timeline.

Ayton, CamJ/Mikal, 4 firsts and 3 pick swaps will beat just about any package anyone else can put together. What if we sell it all for Durant, he declines or throws some hissy fit, and jokic/embiid becomes available next year?

Or we can divide those assets up and acquire multiple high level talents.

Durant wanting to come here is no accident. We're an attractive destination now. If there are red flags, let's not marry the first hot chick that shows interest.

A) Ayton likely isn’t part of any future package because he wants out now.

B) we aren’t going to have a second banana as good as Paul once he retires to seek a third banana. We will be seeking a second banana.

C) the suns have been the ugly kid at the dance for a decade. Right now the temporary makeover has made them attractive. But midnight is approaching and once Paul is gone so is the contender status and we turn back into a pumpkin, albeit a lovely one. But studs won’t be lining up to dance with us.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

You can say that in virtually every year, just fill in the blanks with whoever is available. At some point you have to take the chance. Again, we want a championship. If this is the best way to get one next year or the year after, you have to take it. This isn't acquiring Eric Gordon just so you can make the playoffs again in 2023, this is for Larry O'Brien.

Right. One of the prettiest girls in the room, who didn’t even know you were alive before, has literally asked you to dance. Who cares that her dentures are falling outta her mouth? Kidding. Pop those babies back in and take her for a whirl!

 

[Cheesebeef]

A) Ayton likely isn’t part of any future package because he wants out now.

B) we aren’t going to have a second banana as good as Paul once he retires to seek a third banana. We will be seeking a second banana.

C) the suns have been the ugly kid at the dance for a decade. Right now the temporary makeover has made them attractive. But midnight is approaching and once Paul is gone so is the contender status and we turn back into a pumpkin, albeit a lovely one. But studs won’t be lining up to dance with us.

Borg.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Borg.

Careful, because we share parents and have similar opinions we now aren’t allowed to both post our thoughts about the same topic.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Careful, because we share parents and have similar opinions we now aren’t allowed to both post our thoughts about the same topic.

My favorite thing about that complaint is it totally ignores the fact that there are wide swaths of the board who have also said the same thing in the discussion.

 

[1tinsoldier]

i don't know why i was ever excited by the idea of KD coming here. If he couldn't get anything done with Kyrie and Harden when they were all in excellent form, why would he win a championship now with Booker and a 37/38 year-old Paul? and without our best role players?

 

[Cheesebeef]

i don't know why i was ever excited by the idea of KD coming here. If he couldn't get anything done with Kyrie and Harden when they were all in excellent form, why would he win a championship now with Booker and a 37/38 year-old Paul? and without our best role players?

He almost singlehandedly beat the 2021 Champion bucks if his shoe was an inch shorter.

He never had a committed or healthy Kyrie (he missed the last 5 games of the Bucks series) and Harden was/is totally washed.

 

[elindholm]

No it’s just a juvenile attempt to belittle our separate perspectives on your comments. And I post as I read. I don’t look ahead. So I’m not looking to see what cheese posted to “one-up” his level of “hostility.” But thanks for the personal attack.

Well then it should have been easy for you to shrug off my accusation. But, I'll admit that I was wrong here, and hopefully we can move on. I apologize for failing to regard your perspective as fully individual.

As for motivation, shaq had none. He had won multiple championships and even won one without Kobe with the heat. Durant is definitely seeking his “own” championship without the warriors. If the league talking heads are to be believed he desperately wants to shed the rep that he just tagged along with the warriors - a rep which only became hotter with the warriors now winning before and after Durant.

This is one of our big disagreements. I don't put any stock at all in Durant's claims to be hungry, and even less in the take of league talking heads, who as we all know are ignorant.

I've seen nothing over Durant's long career to suggest that he's capable of finding a higher motivation gear. And I think it's folly to believe, never mind assume, that he'll be transformed into SuperDurant if he gets his way and joins the Suns.

I'm also much more concerned about his injury history than you are. Achilles ruptures have a pretty bad track record, as detailed here: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/kevin-durant-looks-like-himself-again/ Now, the two worst cases on that list, Bryant and Billups, both suffered the injury in their mid-30s, so Durant has a potential advantage there. And some of the players were never stars, or all that fluid, in the first place.

The best comparison is probably Dominique Wilkins, who tore his Achilles at age 32. When he came back, his numbers were as good as ever for two seasons, until age 35, when he started to fall off rather precipitously. So it starts to become a question of counting months on the calendar and hoping to get lucky.

I'm pretty sure that, over the years, you've joined the chorus on this board of questioning Durant's heart and making fun of his inept handling of celebrity. But maybe I'm misremembering. Either way, I'm far from the only one who thinks that Durant is a headcase.

And it's telling how, over the last week or so, the pro-Durant crowd has shifted from "Durant is awesome and will give us what we need" to "Eh, we're screwed no matter what, so we might as well gamble on a miracle." I mean, that's not exactly a vote of confidence. So the question isn't really so much the upside of getting Durant, but the downside of whatever the alternative is. And I'm less despondent than most about the alternatives.

 

[Russ Smith]

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[elindholm]

My favorite thing about that complaint is it totally ignores the fact that there are wide swaths of the board who have also said the same thing in the discussion.

No one else has been so rude and heavy-handed about it.

 

[Cheesebeef]

No one else has been so rude and heavy-handed about it.

just put us on ignore and stop trying to start a flame war.

 

[Ronin]

Calm down everyone.

I'm a little late but it's starting to get out of hand I don't want to lock this thread and hand out time-outs....

 

[taz02]

Durant's health, age, contract and desire are real concerns. If Ayton is gone anyway its likely worth the gamble if we are only losing Ayton and a couple picks.

But the idea of sending Ayton, Bridges, possibly Cam and 4-5 unprotected first round pics makes it not worth the gamble. I'm pretty sure the suns brass feel the same, otherwise this trade would be done.

Does anyone here think trading (Ayton, Bridges possibly Cam and 4-5 unprotected first round pics) for KD and a back up or two is a good deal?

 

[boisesuns]

Remember when we used to argue about what player would finally get us to the playoffs?