Why It’s a Risk to Hire a Coach With a Losing Record

BritCard · Dec 28, 2021

This is a massive issue. Especially that he hasn't fixed it after so long.

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dscher · Dec 28, 2021

Stout said:
What you're basically saying is that a man who has crawled through and survived a desert should be content with a cup of water. We as a fan base have been so abused by lack of quality that this single cup of water will taste great. Trouble is, we're getting a small, very tepid cup of water with a real threat of no more hydration. I want a freaking water fountain instead.

Thing is...you're beating your head on a wall of worry about the need to be like the Patriots, Steelers, or Packers when it comes to that water fountain of success. We have to be realistic as Cards fans that have no idea how the tip top hierarchy of this franchise is built upon. The Bidwills have been perennial losers in the league for a reason, IMO...and although I think Mike wants to do well and put this team on the right path, who knows the intrinsic nature of what happens with control in that family. Since we as fans are already fanatics of this team, going at ownership is almost impossible...I think we can keep going after Keim or any GM, but after that, it's a crap shoot. Attack the player and coaches all we want and it gets us no closer to the Bidwills changing their stripes. But, I hear ya as well. I think we would all love what your implying. Like any fan of a struggling franchise would for that matter.

Just my two cents.

TheCardFan · Dec 28, 2021

Stout said:
What you're basically saying is that a man who has crawled through and survived a desert should be content with a cup of water. We as a fan base have been so abused by lack of quality that this single cup of water will taste great. Trouble is, we're getting a small, very tepid cup of water with a real threat of no more hydration. I want a freaking water fountain instead.

Ouchie-Z-Clown said:
This ostrich-like action is what enables the bidwills to keep underperforming GMs and coaches for too long. Congrats on being a cog in their machine.

You don't go from being one of the worst franchises in pro sports to being a dynasty overnight.

Since Michael has taken over, we have been the most competitive we have ever been. As many playoff appearances in 14 years as in the previous 30 years, including our first Super Bowl. Do we all want to be the Patriots? Of course but we aren't...yet.

The same people praised Kliff and Kyler at the beginning of last year, then called for mass firings, then praised them again this year (along with VJ), and now want to clean house again. I may be an ostrich but I am not a waffler. I see the progress from worst team in the league (#1 pick) to 5 wins, to 8 wins (barely missing the playoffs), to 10 wins (with two more) and making the playoffs. Top 10 offense two years in a row with limited talent (not elite by any means).

Do I like the last 2-3 games? Heck no...they sucked. But to ignore ALL of the good and positive things that have happened this year makes you an ostrich.

mjb21aztd · Dec 28, 2021

If kliff can win out or atleast 1 poff gm i think he will redemm this 3 gm slide which sadly cost cards poff bye and ughhh divison.

I guess 1 and done still ok for team morale but if you are a legit qb and coach u cant choke to fin lions jeez and colts

Lets see how cards do if they get hop hudson back before final judgment

Very disapointin stretch however lot of f words yelled as a fan lol

TheCardFan · Dec 28, 2021

cardpa said:
Actually two non winning seasons and one winning season. Playoff bound because of other teams losing/winning games, not getting in on your own merit. Unable to keep control your own destiny which at one time you held in your hand. We may not agree, but I have to admire your positivity. Question, would you still feel the same if they end up losing out in the final two games and go into the playoffs on a 5 game losing streak?

It's all how you look at it.

Some choose to look at the negatives. 1 winning season out of 3. Not getting into the playoffs on your own merit.
Some choose to look at the positives. 1 losing season out of 3. We played so well most of the year that we earned a playoff berth despite losing 3 in a row with 2 games left.

Do I like losing 3 in a row? Nope. Will I be pissed off if we lose 5 in a row - yep. Will I be disappointed if we get bounced out of the playoffs in the first round - yep.

However, when I look at how far we came this year and what we accomplished - I am motivated for next year. NOBODY thought we would win the Super Bowl this year and more than half of the people who took the poll didn't even think we would win more than 8 games. It SUCKS going 7-0 and then 3-5 but those 7 games were amazing. This season has exceeded our expectations and we still have life. Let's focus on the positives and figure out what needs to be tweaked to win in the playoffs and into next year. We need more talent to compete for the Super Bowl - that is obvious. Blowing up the HC and his staff is not the answer.

JeffGollin · Dec 28, 2021

The issue isn't whether KK is a good coach; it's whether or not we can win with him going forward. Doesn't look like it.

Stout · Dec 28, 2021

dscher said:
Thing is...you're beating your head on a wall of worry about the need to be like the Patriots, Steelers, or Packers when it comes to that water fountain of success. We have to be realistic as Cards fans that have no idea how the tip top hierarchy of this franchise is built upon. The Bidwills have been perennial losers in the league for a reason, IMO...and although I think Mike wants to do well and put this team on the right path, who knows the intrinsic nature of what happens with control in that family. Since we as fans are already fanatics of this team, going at ownership is almost impossible...I think we can keep going after Keim or any GM, but after that, it's a crap shoot. Attack the player and coaches all we want and it gets us no closer to the Bidwills changing their stripes. But, I hear ya as well. I think we would all love what your implying. Like any fan of a struggling franchise would for that matter.

Just my two cents.

No, no, I don't ever expect us to become the Patriots, Steelers, or Packers. I don't want to be a fan whose team gets to the playoffs and is 1 and done every five years and coos and gushes all over the coach that got them there. That's just settling for suckitude.

TheCardFan said:
You don't go from being one of the worst franchises in pro sports to being a dynasty overnight.

Since Michael has taken over, we have been the most competitive we have ever been. As many playoff appearances in 14 years as in the previous 30 years, including our first Super Bowl. Do we all want to be the Patriots? Of course but we aren't...yet.

The same people praised Kliff and Kyler at the beginning of last year, then called for mass firings, then praised them again this year (along with VJ), and now want to clean house again. I may be an ostrich but I am not a waffler. I see the progress from worst team in the league (#1 pick) to 5 wins, to 8 wins (barely missing the playoffs), to 10 wins (with two more) and making the playoffs. Top 10 offense two years in a row with limited talent (not elite by any means).

Do I like the last 2-3 games? Heck no...they sucked. But to ignore ALL of the good and positive things that have happened this year makes you an ostrich.

Bwhahaha! You took what I said as a demand for an overnight dynasty...classic! No, like I said above, just be more than a team that has fans that meekly dip their head and say, "Yes sir, a playoff flameout every 1/2 a decade sounds GREAT to me!!!" That is a far, FAR cry for demanding an overnight dynasty. But, hey, way to move the goal posts.

CFLredzoned · Dec 28, 2021

Buckybird said:
Harry I’d say this tell the story of Kliff. Fast starts, poor finishes! Imo that’s clearly a HC issue, particularly when its 10 years in a row! Think about that...10 YEARS IN A ROW!!! Lol. This list doesn’t even include this season with a 7-0 start, a 3-5 failure down the stretch, with a possible 4-6 finish that might be a 3-7 finish! Wow

Time to call a spade a spade & move on. The history doesn’t lie.

That is pretty shocking.

dreamcastrocks · Dec 28, 2021

The problem with deciding to move on Kliff, is also deciding to move on from Kyler. Every new coach wants to groom their own QBoF.

Even if the Cards lose their last 6 games of the season, I don't think they will break up this team yet. I don't think that anyone in our front office doesn't think that Kyler isn't our guy.

BullheadCardFan · Dec 28, 2021

BritCard said:
This is a massive issue. Especially that he hasn't fixed it after so long.

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Lack of adjustments

StreetTruckinTitan · Dec 28, 2021

The coach and gm are going nowhere. Anybody thinking otherwise is a fool. This was a 10 game league leading team before key injuries derailed the momentum. Bidwill knows that. Unfortunately they have little to no depth at those positions that they can plug and play like other injury ridden teams but that will be addressed in the off season I presume. If they get some players back by the playoffs Im expecting big things from this team.

JeffGollin · Dec 28, 2021

You build a track record. The so-called " experts ride your reputation. You either fulfill expectation or you don't.

Stout · Dec 28, 2021

dreamcastrocks said:
The problem with deciding to move on Kliff, is also deciding to move on from Kyler. Every new coach wants to groom their own QBoF.

Even if the Cards lose their last 6 games of the season, I don't think they will break up this team yet. I don't think that anyone in our front office doesn't think that Kyler isn't our guy.

Normally I would agree, but this is a rare, rare situation. How many kids of KM's talent level that is just screaming out for development are with franchises looking for a new GM/coach combo? I have a feeling coaches and execs would be slobbering at the chance to take advantage.

Harry · Dec 28, 2021

Stout said:
Normally I would agree, but this is a rare, rare situation. How many kids of KM's talent level that is just screaming out for development are with franchises looking for a new GM/coach combo? I have a feeling coaches and execs would be slobbering at the chance to take advantage.

Only if they believe him to be teachable!

dreamcastrocks · Dec 28, 2021

Stout said:
Normally I would agree, but this is a rare, rare situation. How many kids of KM's talent level that is just screaming out for development are with franchises looking for a new GM/coach combo? I have a feeling coaches and execs would be slobbering at the chance to take advantage.

I don't disagree. I just don't think that this front office thinks that KM can't learn more from KK. This is the guy that actively sought out KM in every chance he could get. Plus, no matter how bad things look now, we have improved our overall record each year with KM and KK.

Ouchie-Z-Clown · Dec 28, 2021

TheCardFan said:
You don't go from being one of the worst franchises in pro sports to being a dynasty overnight.

Since Michael has taken over, we have been the most competitive we have ever been. As many playoff appearances in 14 years as in the previous 30 years, including our first Super Bowl. Do we all want to be the Patriots? Of course but we aren't...yet.

The same people praised Kliff and Kyler at the beginning of last year, then called for mass firings, then praised them again this year (along with VJ), and now want to clean house again. I may be an ostrich but I am not a waffler. I see the progress from worst team in the league (#1 pick) to 5 wins, to 8 wins (barely missing the playoffs), to 10 wins (with two more) and making the playoffs. Top 10 offense two years in a row with limited talent (not elite by any means).

Do I like the last 2-3 games? Heck no...they sucked. But to ignore ALL of the good and positive things that have happened this year makes you an ostrich.

The easiest way to say this is just:

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daves · Dec 28, 2021

Harry said:
using the college results is deceptive. College schedules often have several non-conference patsies at the beginning of the season. So the early records are often deceptive.

Good point, Harry. I wanted to check this for myself, unlike most of the people here showing how susceptible they are to buying into a narrative that's fed to them with deceptive stats.

Here are Texas Tech's results, opponents, and opponents' records while Kingsbury was coach. I've bolded every game they either defeated a team that was at least one game over .500, or lost to a team that was at least one game under .500. In six years, that only amounted to six games (in which he had a 4-2 record).

Clearly, the upshot is not "Kingsbury's teams started strong, then faded", but "Kingsbury's teams at Texas Tech almost always beat worse teams, and lost to better teams." It was a quirk of the schedule that the stronger opponents were always scheduled in the latter part of the season (or in a bowl game).

	2013
W	SMU	5-7
W	SF Austin	non-major
W	TCU	4-8
W	TX State	6-6
W	Kansas	3-9
W	IA State	3-9
W	WVU	4-8
L	Oklahoma	11-2
L	OK State	10-3
L	K State	8-5
L	Baylor	11-2
L	UT	8-5
W	ASU	10-4

	2014
W	Cent. AR	non-major
W	UTEP	7-6
L	Arkansas	7-6
L	OK State	7-6
L	K State	9-4
L	WVU	7-6
W	Kansas	3-9
L	TCU	12-1
L	UT	6-7
L	Oklahoma	8-5
W	IA State	2-10
L	Baylor	11-2

	2015
W	Sam Houston	non-major
W	UTEP	5-7
W	Arkansas	8-5
L	TCU	11-2
L	Baylor	10-3
W	IA State	3-9
W	Kansas	0-12
L	Oklahoma	11-2
L	OK State	10-3
L	WVU	8-5
W	K State	6-7
W	UT	5-7
L	LSU	9-3

	2016
W	SF Austin	non-major
L	ASU	5-7
W	LA Tech	9-5
W	Kansas	2-10
L	K State	9-4
L	WVU	10-3
L	Oklahoma	11-2
W	TCU	6-7
L	UT	5-7
L	OK State	10-3
L	IA State	3-9
W	Baylor	7-6

	2017
W	East WA	non-major
W	ASU	7-6
W	Houston	7-5
L	OK State	10-3
W	Kansas	1-11
L	WVU	7-6
L	IA State	8-5
L	Oklahoma	12-2
L	K State	8-5
W	Baylor	1-11
L	TCU	11-3
W	UT	7-6
L	South FL	10-2

	2018
L	Ole Miss	5-7
W	Lamar	non-major
W	Houston	8-5
W	OK State	7-6
L	WVU	8-4
W	TCU	7-6
W	Kansas	3-9
L	IA State	8-5
L	Oklahoma	12-2
L	UT	10-4
L	K State	5-7
L	Baylor	7-6

BTW, in the year preceding Kingsbury, Texas Tech started 6-1 and finished 2-4 (2012). In the year following Kingsbury, they started 3-4 and finished 1-4 (2019).

...dbs

Ouchie-Z-Clown · Dec 29, 2021

daves said:
Good point, Harry. I wanted to check this for myself, unlike most of the people here showing how susceptible they are to buying into a narrative that's fed to them with deceptive stats.

Here are Texas Tech's results, opponents, and opponents' records while Kingsbury was coach. I've bolded every game they either defeated a team that was at least one game over .500, or lost to a team that was at least one game under .500. In six years, that only amounted to six games (in which he had a 4-2 record).

Clearly, the upshot is not "Kingsbury's teams started strong, then faded", but "Kingsbury's teams at Texas Tech almost always beat worse teams, and lost to better teams." It was a quirk of the schedule that the stronger opponents were always scheduled in the latter part of the season (or in a bowl game).

2013

W
SMU
5-7
W
SF Austin
non-major
W
TCU
4-8
W
TX State
6-6
W
Kansas
3-9
W
IA State
3-9
W
WVU
4-8
L
Oklahoma
11-2
L
OK State
10-3
L
K State
8-5
L
Baylor
11-2
L
UT
8-5
W
ASU
10-4

2014

W
Cent. AR
non-major
W
UTEP
7-6
L
Arkansas
7-6
L
OK State
7-6
L
K State
9-4
L
WVU
7-6
W
Kansas
3-9
L
TCU
12-1
L
UT
6-7
L
Oklahoma
8-5
W
IA State
2-10
L
Baylor
11-2

2015

W
Sam Houston
non-major
W
UTEP
5-7
W
Arkansas
8-5
L
TCU
11-2
L
Baylor
10-3
W
IA State
3-9
W
Kansas
0-12
L
Oklahoma
11-2
L
OK State
10-3
L
WVU
8-5
W
K State
6-7
W
UT
5-7
L
LSU
9-3

2016

W
SF Austin
non-major
L
ASU
5-7
W
LA Tech
9-5
W
Kansas
2-10
L
K State
9-4
L
WVU
10-3
L
Oklahoma
11-2
W
TCU
6-7
L
UT
5-7
L
OK State
10-3
L
IA State
3-9
W
Baylor
7-6

2017

W
East WA
non-major
W
ASU
7-6
W
Houston
7-5
L
OK State
10-3
W
Kansas
1-11
L
WVU
7-6
L
IA State
8-5
L
Oklahoma
12-2
L
K State
8-5
W
Baylor
1-11
L
TCU
11-3
W
UT
7-6
L
South FL
10-2

2018
L Ole Miss 5-7
W Lamar non-major
W Houston 8-5
W OK State 7-6
L WVU 8-4
W TCU 7-6
W Kansas 3-9
L IA State 8-5
L Oklahoma 12-2
L UT 10-4
L K State 5-7
L Baylor 7-6

BTW, in the year preceding Kingsbury, Texas Tech started 6-1 and finished 2-4 (2012). In the year following Kingsbury, they started 3-4 and finished 1-4 (2019).

...dbs

That’s certainly interesting. So the connection isn’t that kingsbury can’t win games late it’s that he can’t beat good teams? Now do his nfl seasons.

Cheesebeef · Dec 29, 2021

StreetTruckinTitan said:
The coach and gm are going nowhere. Anybody thinking otherwise is a fool. This was a 10 game league leading team before key injuries derailed the momentum. Bidwill knows that. Unfortunately they have little to no depth at those positions that they can plug and play like other injury ridden teams but that will be addressed in the off season I presume. If they get some players back by the playoffs Im expecting big things from this team.

Horse Manure.

EVERY team has had KEY injuries or big Covid losses for weeks. The Bucs, The Packers, The Cowboys, The Rams have all had a ton of all of the above.

Hell, the Packers and the Rams had the MOST injuries/Covid issues against US, and still beat us in our own house. And spare me the “next season we’ll get depth crap. We hear that every year.

TheCardFan · Dec 29, 2021

KK has proven he can beat very good teams in the NFL, so that is irrelevant now.

TheCardFan · Dec 29, 2021

Ouchie-Z-Clown said:
The easiest way to say this is just:

The easiest way to say it and what actually matters the most:

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StreetTruckinTitan · Dec 29, 2021

cheesebeef said:
Horse Manure.

EVERY team has had KEY injuries or big Covid losses for weeks. The Bucs, The Packers, The Cowboys, The Rams have all had a ton of all of the above.

Hell, the Packers and the Rams had the MOST injuries/Covid issues against US, and still beat us in our own house. And spare me the “next season we’ll get depth crap. We hear that every year.

The Cards arent those teams Cheesy. Try to pay attention. I said we dont have the depth like those teams do that's the reason we cant compete when we start losing our key players. Besides, we had the chance to beat GB if Green turned around in the endzone. We could have beat the Colts as ****** as we were playing if Prater wasnt struggling with a new holder. I also said IF we get players back for the playoffs we could make some noise. Sorry if my optimism goes against the grain on this board I just dont give up and lay down.

Stout · Dec 29, 2021

TheCardFan said:
KK has proven he can beat very good teams in the NFL, so that is irrelevant now.

He's also proven he can lose to very bad teams in the NFL, so your point is irrelevant.

TheCardFan · Dec 29, 2021

Stout said:
He's also proven he can lose to very bad teams in the NFL, so your point is irrelevant.

So does every NFL coach - so actually your point is irrelevant.

The point of this thread is KK's lack of winning in college (why hire a coach with a losing record). Who cares what he did in college now? What matters most is that he has proven he can do it at the highest level and against very good teams...now (in the NFL).

Again - it's about balance. You can't throw out all of the positives to focus on just the negatives unless you want to be happy being miserable.

TJ · Dec 29, 2021

TheCardFan said:
KK has proven he can beat very good teams in the NFL, so that is irrelevant now.

Has he proven in college and the pros he can finish seasons?

Why It’s a Risk to Hire a Coach With a Losing Record

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