Why It’s a Risk to Hire a Coach With a Losing Record

[DVontel]

You realize he is 3-2 vs those coaches this year right? He is AJ Green turning around from being 4-1 and a different "finish" to the season IMO.

Another point to make - only Shanahan has less talent on offense IMO. BA, McVay, and McCarthy are STACKED.

I’d argue Shanahan has more talent than we do, or at least top end talent. Having the best OT & arguable best TE in the league while having one of the most dangerous weapons in the league in Deebo. Don’t know what to make of Aiyuk, yet.

 

[TheCardFan]

I think you still don’t understand the simple concept of patterns and trends and how a fixed inability to elevate your team during the second half of seasons when things like playoff pushes, division titles, and actually playoffs games occurs is a problem. Every year. Literally every year. College and pro. Every year.

C'mon man - we jus talked about "trends" with Kyler. You are arguing both sides. Let it go.

Bottom line - KK has improved every year. It would be a completely different conversation if we hadn't started out 7-0, won 10 games, and made the playoffs. If we ended up 8-9 or 9-8 and missed the playoffs due to second half collapse, I would be there with you. I just don't choose to throw away all the good things that happened to get to 7-0 and 10-2.

We aren't getting blown out (except for Carolina). Missed kicks, botched snaps, guys not turning around, throwing deep on 3rd/4th and short, not running the damn ball, etc. ALL of these are little things that are fixable. Let's not blow it up when we are this close to something great.

 

[TheCardFan]

I’d argue Shanahan has more talent than we do, or at least top end talent. Having the best OT & arguable best TE in the league while having one of the most dangerous weapons in the league in Deebo. Don’t know what to make of Aiyuk, yet.

Good point.

Thank you for saying this BTW:

Having the best OT

 

[StreetTruckinTitan]

I love these bs comments. Recognizing the truth isn’t laying down. It’s called analyzing facts and being a realist. Every single realist on this board is still rooting for the cards to win.

I understand God gave most of us 10 fingers and toes to be able to point in every direction but that doesnt mean you have to. The vitriol for this team is mind blowing. And dont say youre "realist" fans when all you guys do is bitch at every opportunity. But hey, you guys do you!

 

[AZCB34]

Where does this perception come from? Does everyone on here remember rookie year Kyler?

Dude has improved every year. 5 wins, 8 wins, 10 wins (with 2 more to go), and playoffs.

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It comes from Kylers own words in that interview. He created a perception for those who do not follow this team as closely as you that this may not be something he is working all that hard on.

Some of those numbers are the result of better players around him, some is the game slowing down for him.

It’s why I used the word perception and not reality…although neither you nor I know his reality in how hard he is working on his craft. Your numbers tell a story but not the whole story.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Huge roster improvements for us. How would you rank the offensive talent of the teams currently with 10 wins?

At present or when all healthy? We lost hop, Rams lost woods and Akers, Titans lost Henry, and bucs lost both wrs (I believe one for a while).

If talking right now I’d say our wrs rank:

Cowboys
Rams
Bucs
Packers
Chiefs
Titans
Cards

But only bc they each now have their stud wr and hop is out. If hop were back I’d put cards above packers.

Rb:
Packers
Bucs/cards
Cowboys
Rams
Chiefs
Titans

People might shake their head at Cowboys but zeke ain’t got it this year and pollard is okay but not special. Their numbers are more attributable to their line imo.

TE:
Chiefs
Bucs/cards
Cowboys
Packers/Rams/titans


If hop were healthy I’d say only the bucs have a better full contingent of skill players.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I’d argue Shanahan has more talent than we do, or at least top end talent. Having the best OT & arguable best TE in the league while having one of the most dangerous weapons in the league in Deebo. Don’t know what to make of Aiyuk, yet.

Other than at the most important position, you’re right. If Deebo and kittle can stay healthy (difficult for both)

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I understand God gave most of us 10 fingers and toes to be able to point fingers in every direction but that doesnt mean you have to. The vitriol for this team is mind blowing. And dont say youre "realist" fans when all you guys do is bitch at every opportunity. But hey, you guys do you!

I love when you paint with such a broad brush so as to be completely inaccurate. We choose to focus on breaking down the team and coaching. You choose to focus on breaking down other posters. I’d say “you do you” but I think how you choose to do you is lame and divisive.

 

[SoonerLou]

Good point.

Thank you for saying this BTW:

I think one underrated disappointment is DJ Humphries. He was Pro Bowl/All Pro caliber last year. He's still maybe our best Olineman, but just not as dominant as he was at times last year.

 

[TheCardFan]

It’s why I used the word perception and not reality…although neither you nor I know his reality in how hard he is working on his craft. Your numbers tell a story but not the whole story.

Thank you sir. Legit question on my part.

 

[Harry]

I think basing improvement by counting wins is limiting. Factors such as schedule, roster composition and injuries/COVID impact that number. That said I would certainly agree Murray has improved. The issue is how much has he improved. I can list a few things he does better. That said there is still much room for improvement. Is Murray committed to taking the next step? The comments about ignoring most of the game film is an issue because I believe things he needs to improve are best seen from film. You run a play, look at who he targets and look at open receivers he didn’t use. That’s how you impress on him to run progressions. You look at defensive alignments and what happens when the Cards put people in motion. That allows you to see how to predict blitzes and establish hot reads. You avoid sacks before they happen. There are others but this makes the point.

My biggest issue is with Kingsbury. Film study should not be optional. Again Kingsbury eschews proven systems to go with things that accommodate his own preference. Perhaps he doesn’t base game plans on film. He’s certainly used ones that seem to be created without considering the opponent. One way or the other IMO this has to be fixed before the Cards can move forward.

 

[bankybruce]

Bill Belichick had a losing record in Cleveland (36-44) and the Patriots hired him. He even had a losing season in his first year in NE and missed the playoffs in 2 of his first 3 years.

KK was 35-40 at TT, so a better winning percentage that BB. Not saying KK is BB, but that is a crap shoot no matter what.

 

[Jetstream Green]

The core of this thread seems to have passed you by. It's about the second half nosedives that have been his MO since he's been a HC regardess of level. He had a winning season at TT too but it still came with a second half dive.

"Hmmm... this sounds vaguely familiar"- Marvin Lewis

 

[daves]

Interesting, perhaps this is telling us he’s better when teams don’t have film on his current squad. He seems to be able to consistently lose to bad teams.

Not sure how the win/loss record i posted led you to this conclusion. Kingsbury's Texas Tech teams only lost twice to teams that were well below average (more than a game below .500) - and one of those two losses was in the first Division 1 game of the season, vs. an ASU team that finished 5-7. They won four times vs. teams that were more than a game above .500. Dunno what difference opponents having film made in these results.

I don't really follow college football, so I don't know how the talent on a typical Texas Tech team compared to the talent on most other Big 12 teams, but I saw that many of the teams to which Texas Tech lost were not only above .500, but nationally ranked.

...dave

 

[Red on White]

If you take a step back and look at the macro things are trending ok

Worst team in the NFL
Bit better the next year
Mid-table the year after
Into playoffs the year after that

Look at the micro though and all we can see is some awful losses when it counts that makes you question whether the progress we've seen this year is real/sustainable.

Are the last few weeks merely a blip on an overall upward trend? Or are they an indicator that the closer we get to the prize the more our (squad/coach/QB/GM) shortcomings are exposed?

The fear I have is that whatever doubts we as a fan base are feeling would be also felt by those inside the organisation. Kliff, Kyler and co wouldn't be human if they didn't feel them. These doubts lead to poor decision making under pressure.

No one enters the NFL as a proven performer though. No one has won anything meaningful at this level until they have. No one at the Cardinals carries the confidence with them of having been there and done it - Coach, QB, GM. Need to prove to themselves that they can do it. Will make it easier the next time. Continuing to lose these big games though and the monkey on our back only gets bigger.

 

[oaken1]

The problem with deciding to move on Kliff, is also deciding to move on from Kyler. Every new coach wants to groom their own QBoF.

Even if the Cards lose their last 6 games of the season, I don't think they will break up this team yet. I don't think that anyone in our front office doesn't think that Kyler isn't our guy.

Incorrect. Any coach brought in will know kyler is his guy. You don't dump an MVP candidate on his rookie deal because you change coaches.
The truth is that kyler already being here makes this job more desirable because an incoming coach knows he doesn't have to risk his future on an unknown at qb.
Did Rodgers get cut when the Packers changed coaches? Derek Carr has been through a few coaches too.
Every coach wants a franchise qb and having one on the roster is much better than trying to find one with a mid twenties pick in the draft

 

[oaken1]

So does every NFL coach - so actually your point is irrelevant.

The point of this thread is KK's lack of winning in college (why hire a coach with a losing record). Who cares what he did in college now? What matters most is that he has proven he can do it at the highest level and against very good teams...now (in the NFL).

Again - it's about balance. You can't throw out all of the positives to focus on just the negatives unless you want to be happy being miserable.

But he hasn't proven he can do it in the second half of a season...and he hasn't proven he can win a big game...a playoff clinching game.
He has however proven that his team's fall apart when their backs are against the wall.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I think basing improvement by counting wins is limiting. Factors such as schedule, roster composition and injuries/COVID impact that number. That said I would certainly agree Murray has improved. The issue is how much has he improved. I can list a few things he does better. That said there is still much room for improvement. Is Murray committed to taking the next step? The comments about ignoring most of the game film is an issue because I believe things he needs to improve are best seen from film. You run a play, look at who he targets and look at open receivers he didn’t use. That’s how you impress on him to run progressions. You look at defensive alignments and what happens when the Cards put people in motion. That allows you to see how to predict blitzes and establish hot reads. You avoid sacks before they happen. There are others but this makes the point.

My biggest issue is with Kingsbury. Film study should not be optional. Again Kingsbury eschews proven systems to go with things that accommodate his own preference. Perhaps he doesn’t base game plans on film. He’s certainly used ones that seem to be created without considering the opponent. One way or the other IMO this has to be fixed before the Cards can move forward.

While I agree with your premises I think it’s important to clarify that kyler never said film study was optional or that he doesn’t do it. He said he doesn’t spend all day doing it. Or something to that effect. I get your point and agree, but let’s not turn the comment into something it’s not.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Bill Belichick had a losing record in Cleveland (36-44) and the Patriots hired him. He even had a losing season in his first year in NE and missed the playoffs in 2 of his first 3 years.

KK was 35-40 at TT, so a better winning percentage that BB. Not saying KK is BB, but that is a crap shoot no matter what.

BB had also coached in the NFL as an assistant and was part of the parcells coaching tree. Kliff had never coached in the nfl. Like the hire or not, no one can say that hiring anyone with kliffs coaching background was similar to any previous hire.

 

[TJ]

Nope but all I care about is his record in the NFL. He certainly needs to find a way to finish better.

He has proven he can win 7 in a row (how many other NFL coaches have done that?), improve every year, create a top 10 offense (2 years in a row), win 10 games (with two left), oh...and make the playoffs.

So if you agree he can’t finish seasons, why keep him? Sounds like we already know his ceiling And it’s not a championship

 

[Chopper0080]

While I agree with your premises I think it’s important to clarify that kyler never said film study was optional or that he doesn’t do it. He said he doesn’t spend all day doing it. Or something to that effect. I get your point and agree, but let’s not turn the comment into something it’s not.

A couple quick thoughts.

1- I like that you point out the Kyler didn't say he doesn't study film, and mainly said he kinda does what is expected and not significantly more.

2- The fansided article needs to be taken with a bit of perspective. It cites nameless sources from a crony group of NFL people who don't like the success/system of Kingsbury. They don't like that he got the job with a losing record in college and he didn't "earn" it. All that said, I am sure there are nuggets of truth in it. Kliff is very player friendly. Vets do rarely practice. The team is undisciplined. What I do know is that the Cardinals are winning games and winning more every year. I know that players like to win games and generally will look internally in how they can get over the hump when faced with failure. I also know Kliff is as adaptable as any HC in the NFL (imo).

So, if I am going to dip my toes back into a little positivity, I would say that if the Cardinals fail to meet their goals I am sure they will look at why and if Kliff needs to buckle down a bit more, I think the team will get behind it. I am honestly more worried about our ability to maintain a solid roster once we pay Kyler than much else.

 

[PACardsFan]

I understand God gave most of us 10 fingers and toes to be able to point in every direction but that doesnt mean you have to. The vitriol for this team is mind blowing. And dont say youre "realist" fans when all you guys do is bitch at every opportunity. But hey, you guys do you!

Couldn't agree more. When I initially found this board (2002), I thought I'd died and gone to heaven. I started following this team in 1964, so I was a diehard for 40 years without even knowing another Cardinal fan. Listening to the whiners on this board is draining & only pushes me away from visiting this board more frequently. I'm not here to pick fights with the chicken littles on this board. It's exhausting hearing the "we're all rooting for the Cardinals to win", but realistically, WE SUCK. It gets old. And I'm getting too old to listen to it. To each their own though.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Couldn't agree more. When I initially found this board (2002), I thought I'd died and gone to heaven. I started following this team in 1964, so I was a diehard for 40 years without even knowing another Cardinal fan. Listening to the whiners on this board is draining & only pushes me away from visiting this board more frequently. I'm not here to pick fights with the chicken littles on this board. It's exhausting hearing the "we're all rooting for the Cardinals to win", but realistically, WE SUCK. It gets old. And I'm getting too old to listen to it. To each their own though.

What, exactly, is chicken little about discussing the fact that we are on a three game slide? I mean, should people be cheery about the team right now? What is presently the reason for optimism heading into the Cowboys game? I don’t understand posters who get angry or frustrated at posters that would actually like to discuss the real life issues facing the team.

And in the two decades I’ve been on ASFN it’s always been this way. Generally discussion. A healthy amount of cheering together, an appropriate amount of criticism of the ownership, management, coaches, and players who have given us sub .500 overall record over the span, and an ever present attack on posters who express their misgivings of the team or their frustrations.

 

[Stout]

Couldn't agree more. When I initially found this board (2002), I thought I'd died and gone to heaven. I started following this team in 1964, so I was a diehard for 40 years without even knowing another Cardinal fan. Listening to the whiners on this board is draining & only pushes me away from visiting this board more frequently. I'm not here to pick fights with the chicken littles on this board. It's exhausting hearing the "we're all rooting for the Cardinals to win", but realistically, WE SUCK. It gets old. And I'm getting too old to listen to it. To each their own though.

LOL You whine with the best of them and insult non-Kool Aiders ALL THE TIME. But, hey, that's cool, right? You're allowed to whine and insult as long as you're positive about the team, yeah?

Ordinarily, you bring some nice insight to the board. I like some of the positive you bring to counterbalance the negative. Then you break out into this, and *smh*

 

[TheCardFan]

So if you agree he can’t finish seasons, why keep him? Sounds like we already know his ceiling And it’s not a championship

What is his ceiling?