Why not fire Graves?

[kerouac9]

Was he the GM at the Bears ?

He was director of Player Personnel. Before that, he was director of College scouting. Under his direction, the Bears compliled a mighty .500 record, and he left the team so bereft of talent that they made the playoffs once in the succeeding 8 years.

 

[Sandan]

What was his responsibility, who made the final decsions ?

I have no idea, do you ?

 

[kerouac9]

What was his responsibility, who made the final decsions ?

I have no idea, do you ?

If Graves has no responsibility, then why would he even take the job? If you have the title, then you take the responsibility, good or bad.

 

[Pariah]

What was his responsibility, who made the final decsions ?

I have no idea, do you ?

I haven't read it, but common language in the job descriptions for titles like these includes the phrase "in charge of," and "responsible for" which, to me, implies responsibility.

 

[RedStorm]

Mike finally has control of the team. Pocketbook was finally opened. He gets Green which 95% of you guys wanted and now he sucks? Cmon guys. Graves is a class act imo after meeting him and really wants to win. They will.

Heck, I really, really, really want 10 million dollars.....I guess it will eventually happen.....NOT.


Graves goes. So does Green.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

I agree. Fire him and let him run a gauntlet of Cardinals fans out to his car.

BEAT THE BASTARD!

 

[RugbyMuffin]

What was his responsibility, who made the final decsions ?

I have no idea, do you ?

Nidan STOP!!! Just stop.

You are fighting you butt off for a LOSER. He may be the niciest guy in the world but as the Cardinals (not the Bears or anywhere else) he SUCKS! HE JUST PLAIN SUCKS!

Look at the record this team has had during his time as GM. NUFF SAID.

If he is not making the final decision BUT also is letting some of the bad decisions go without a fight then it is just as bad. SOMEONE has to step up and start running this organization like it is an actual NFL franchise, and not some mickey mouse, bush league, two hand touch football team. SOMEONE has to tell the Bidwills AND I QUOTE "Shut up, your wrong. You have been wrong for decades. Let me the G.M. make the football decisions and you morons write the checks and look important". Graves obviously has not done this so he is accountable.

Sorry Nidan. 1-7 is all the argument you need to prove Graves is not a good GM for the Cardinals.

Don't feel bad. I really like Denny Green, but his time is up as well.

 

[Shane]

Looks like I'm no longer the only person who thinks RG is a class act.

Just wait you are now on the assault list

Who cares if he is a class act? Class doesnt win in this business. Knowing what you are doing does. Graves has shown a plenty that he has no clue. Nice guys finish last Ian.

 

[ajcardfan]

At this point everyone needs to be fired.

Heck, yeah. That's what I was saying when Tobin's and McGinnis' time had come. The stench of failure permeates this team. Fire EVERYBODY! Even the team doctors, accountants, secretaries and janitors.

 

[AZCB34]

I think Graves is a very nice person with a very nice family and I wish things were better for him and the rest of us. I personally find it hard to grade him because we just don't know what the plan has been or is. Why did we not spend to the limit?

No one has really given a good explanation as to why.

Was his job to sign one big name player and a few other mid tier FA's? If so then job well done.

Was his job to sign up to the limit and improve the team as much as possible? If so then he blew it big time.

Was his job to spend but save money for our own players?

Who really knows. MB has not come out and said (as far as I know) so how can we really grade him?

Why is he without a contract? If he was not going to be brought back why would he continue to work? If he is going to be retained why hasn't he gotten a new deal?

THere are so many questions that have gone unanswered that we can only speculate.

I'll give it a whirl:

1. Why did we not spend to the limit?
The Cards have been running a plan lately of holding money back for a rainy day if injuries occur. They also have been holding money back in order to re-sign the "core players" to extensions so they can better manage the cap in subsequent years...alot of these players were "core players" from pitiful losing teams and some probably did not deserve the contract.

2. Was his job to sign one big name player and a few other mid tier FA's?
This one is harder to tell but based on info out there (how reliable I have no clue) Green wanted to spread the wealth out among 7-8 FA's this past offseason, Michael B wanted Edge to "make a splash" and I presume Graves sided with Michael whether he believed in it or not. Quite frankly, I don't think Rod had alot of say in how things went down. He may have had input but I question the weight his input held in the decision-making.

3. Was his job to sign up to the limit and improve the team as much as possible?
No...see #1. I think he is told to hold some money back. I happen to think that this is phenomenon of holding money back is the direct result of Bill Bidwill. I think, like alot of people his age, he worries about money and the saving of it. People his age don't live on the ragged financial edge like the younger set and they worry about money for a rainy day.

4. Was his job to spend but save money for our own players?
Yes, I believe it was although what his exact instructions were could probably be traced back to Bill/Michael directly. I gotta believe that even if Green really wanted Edge too (and I think he really did), Denny would have wanted most of the surplus cash spent to help the team more.

5. how can we really grade him?
His own history provides a blueprint with how to grade him...we know all about his drafts here in AZ...we know about his job of signing the 1st rounders here in AZ...he ran one Bears draft and it was a disaster (I cannot remember which one off the top of my hear but if you really want to know I can try to find out). There is anough info to grade him.

6. Why is he without a contract? If he was not going to be brought back why would he continue to work? If he is going to be retained why hasn't he gotten a new deal?
This isn't the first time in his AZ tenure he has been without contract IIRC. Eventually he signed a new deal (the most recent one to expire) and I don't think it fazes him in the slightest although it should. He continues ro work because he is a class guy and I think genuinely likes the Bidwills. He will get a new deal, I believe, after Denny is booted out the door.

 

[clif]

I just cannot believe that this team went into FA and said hey just sign a RB a mediocre lineman a solid DT and call it an offseason. There had to be some reason why they stopped spending.

I just don't see how Denny could have thought this team was set nor do I believe even Rod thought this team was set. How can he come out awhile back and say this team is 2-3 players away all the while sitting on 10 mil in cap space? There obviously something amiss.

 

[ajcardfan]

I just cannot believe that this team went into FA and said hey just sign a RB a mediocre lineman a solid DT and call it an offseason. There had to be some reason why they stopped spending.

I just don't see how Denny could have thought this team was set nor do I believe even Rod thought this team was set. How can he come out awhile back and say this team is 2-3 players away all the while sitting on 10 mil in cap space? There obviously something amiss.

Yeah, something is definitely screwed up. I'm sure we all remember than Denny originally said we were going after a half dozen midlevel guys and not a big name. And, Rod's comment about being more than 2 or 3 players away was screwed up and hasn't been criticized nearly enough. Do our players really need an upper management guy giftwrapping them an excuse to lose? I also wonder that, if the Bidwills and Graves truly believe that, where will be the urgency to fire Green when they basically admitted he doesn't have the necessary weapons?

 

[AZCB34]

I just cannot believe that this team went into FA and said hey just sign a RB a mediocre lineman a solid DT and call it an offseason. There had to be some reason why they stopped spending.

I just don't see how Denny could have thought this team was set nor do I believe even Rod thought this team was set. How can he come out awhile back and say this team is 2-3 players away all the while sitting on 10 mil in cap space? There obviously something amiss.

here is where the story gets murkier. Based on accounts from several people in the media, here is how I think it went down:

-Denny wanted 7-8 FA's
-Michael wanted a name guy (Edge) Bill Bidwill didn't want Edge
-Denny wanted Edge thinking he would get some other decent players
-Michael and Denny signed Edge
-Bill was pissed and pretty much closed the checking account to hold the money for the rainy day fund that was Rod Graves idea for the last few years.

 

[clif]

Yeah, something is definitely screwed up. I'm sure we all remember than Denny originally said we were going after a half dozen midlevel guys and not a big name. And, Rod's comment about being more than 2 or 3 players away was screwed up and hasn't been criticized nearly enough. Do our players really need an upper management guy giftwrapping them an excuse to lose? I also wonder that, if the Bidwills and Graves truly believe that, where will be the urgency to fire Green when they basically admitted he doesn't have the necessary weapons?

That is exactly what I was saying in another thread. If they sat on 10 mil and fire Denny now then they are putting the blame on Denny for underperforming, but if they keep him they are basically admitting that they knew he couldn't win with the team the way it was because they didn't make the necessary moves in the offseason to ensure winning.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

here is where the story gets murkier. Based on accounts from several people in the media, here is how I think it went down:

-Denny wanted 7-8 FA's
-Michael wanted a name guy (Edge) Bill Bidwill didn't want Edge
-Denny wanted Edge thinking he would get some other decent players
-Michael and Denny signed Edge
-Bill was pissed and pretty much closed the checking account to hold the money for the rainy day fund that was Rod Graves idea for the last few years.

So there's a clear difference in philosphy between the HC and son and owner and GM. That's terrific news.

 

[Sandan]

Nidan STOP!!! Just stop.

You are fighting you butt off for a LOSER. He may be the niciest guy in the world but as the Cardinals (not the Bears or anywhere else) he SUCKS! HE JUST PLAIN SUCKS!

NO I'M NOT, why do you think I am defending Rod Graves. Nowhere have I said he should stay. I guess logic is not highly valued today.

I ask what was his responsibility for the Bears and K9 jumps on me again. Simply put I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT HIS ACTUAL JOB WAS THERE. In fact until somebody here brought it up I'd have been hard pushed to tell you what he did previously.

You, like K9 are assuming my comment was meant as a defence of RG, it wasn't I DON'T KNOW WHAT HE DID THERE, in fact I know almost nothing about the Bears.

It is true that whatever his title, we have no actual idea of his level of actual control. AGAIN THIS IS NOT TRYING TO EXCUSE RG, I just don't know, and I suspect neither do you.

 

[AZCB34]

So there's a clear difference in philosphy between the HC and son and owner and GM. That's terrific news.

Yes, I believe there is a difference in philosophy...and in some ways it can be traced to the immortal Father-son differences in philosophy which can be traced through life itself. Bill, IMO, is risk averse whereas Michael is a risk taker. Denny sides with Michael and Rod sides with Bill because they are similar in their attitudes so the sides are natural.

My guess is, Denny realy thought Michael would get more money out of Bill and was left holding the bag when he didn't get the additional cash to buy more players of his liking. I also think Denny didn't emphasize to Michael what the real issues were that needed to be dealt with...maybe out of blindness and maybe out of belief.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

NO I'M NOT, why do you think I am defending Rod Graves. Nowhere have I said he should stay. I guess logic is not highly valued today.

I ask what was his responsibility for the Bears and K9 jumps on me again. Simply put I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT HIS ACTUAL JOB WAS THERE. In fact until somebody here brought it up I'd have been hard pushed to tell you what he did previously.

You, like K9 are assuming my comment was meant as a defence of RG, it wasn't I DON'T KNOW WHAT HE DID THERE, in fact I know almost nothing about the Bears.

It is true that whatever his title, we have no actual idea of his level of actual control. AGAIN THIS IS NOT TRYING TO EXCUSE RG, I just don't know, and I suspect neither do you.

Ok. I understand now. Sorry for the frustration caused.

 

[Duckjake]

Mike finally has control of the team. Pocketbook was finally opened. He gets Green which 95% of you guys wanted and now he sucks? Cmon guys. Graves is a class act imo after meeting him and really wants to win. They will.

How many times have I heard that over the last 3 and a half years.

Cardinals record since Graves was named VP of football operations: 16-40. Their record in the same # of games before: 19-37. Hasn't made any difference has he? But then neither has anyone else.

The question is not whether the front office is populated with class acts who want to win but with people who know how to win.

 

[pinnacle]

I read somewhere on a message board that "graves drafted urlacher when he was with the Bears"....I thought I read it on this board...but maybe it was on another message board... This is not true...he left in 1997 to join the Cardinals. It appears Graves had some significant authority from 1994 - 1997 when he was Director of Player Personnel for the Bears. It appears for 1993 and 1994 he was Director of College Scouting...so he was probably responsible for at least the 1994 college draft and maybe the 1993 college draft for the bears. I have no idea who Graves had a hand in drafting/signing during this 3 or 4 year period after he was promoted to Director of Player Personnel.

Rod seems like a very nice man...but he needs to go as our GM.

Rod Graves
Vice President – Football Operations
College: Texas Tech
Hometown: Houston, TX
Cardinal Season: 10th
NFL Season: 23rd

Rod Graves begins his 10th season with the Cardinals and his 23rd season in the National Football League. Graves joined the Cardinals in June of 1997 as Assistant to the President. He was promoted to the position of Vice President of Football Operations following the 2002 season.

Graves, 47, is responsible for all facets of the Cardinals’ football operations. He has provided leadership in hiring, planning, budgeting, player acquisitions, negotiations, and scouting. He has represented the Cardinals on a number of NFL committees. He currently serves on the board of directors of National Football Scouting, Inc. and National Invitational Camp, Inc. (Indy Combine).

Consistent with the Cardinals efforts to become champions in the community, Rod and his wife Dreama, devote their time and resources to supporting Cardinals Charities, The United Way, and The American Diabetes Association.

A native of Houston, Texas, Rod began his career in professional football in 1982 as a regional scout for the Philadelphia Stars of the United States Football League. He joined the National Football League in 1984 as a regional scout for the Chicago Bears, a position he held until promoted to director of college scouting in 1993. He was promoted in 1994 to director of player personnel.

Rod is a graduate of Texas Tech University. He is also the son of the late Jackie Graves, former player personnel executive of the Philadelphia Eagles.

Rod and Dreama reside in Phoenix with their three children: daughters, Brittany & Taylor and son Joshua.

 

[BACH]

Before I get attacked from all sides, let me say that this is not an attempt to defend Graves. I find very hard to evaluate his effort, because we don't know what happens behind the scenes with Michael and Senior.

What I find ironic is the selective way that Graves get evaluated on this thread.

I simply do not understand how Graves:

- can be responsible for "the 2003 trade-down disaster", yet NOT responsible for getting Boldin, Hayes, Wells, Fitz, Dockett, Green, Dansby, Leinart etc. etc. in the drafts

- can be responsible for the hold-outs, when it's been pretty much proven, that Rolle and Leinart used the Cardinals' bad reputation to get a unrealistic deal.

- is responsible for having this team under the cap year after year, while NOT responsible for extending the contracts of our core players. Remember when all our Pro-bowlers out? Now they get new deals to stay with the team instead.

 

[CaptTurbo]

I am pro graves. Plain and simple.

 

[TigToad]

I like Graves

I like Rod Graves for a couple reasons.

1. He has convinced the Bidwill's to allow contracts that are not 100% straight forward.

2. He has been able to do this because the Bidwills have >< much trust in him to hand out their money.

Neither of these things have been visible in a GM here before.

-

The only truly wretched move I saw Graves make was the trade down with New Orleans. Even the poor first round picks that year, I don't blame on him. It is my understanding Graves was told he had by McGinnis to use the first round picks on a DE and a WR. That does limit your players.

For that matter, look at the roster pre-graves and now, do you really object to the changes?

---

I blame Green for bad coaching and bad assistant hiring (not across the board, but in general)

 

[Duckjake]

I am pro graves. Plain and simple.

I've met the Bidwills. They are very cordial and class individuals. Everyone that works for them is courteous and helpful. The Cardinals are a class organization off the field. I doubt any other NFL team treats their fans as well as the Cardinals do.

But that doesn't mean they know how to put together a winning football team and they would probably be the poster boy for nice guys finishing last.

 

[JeffGollin]

Unless we know what goes on behind the closed doors of the Cardinal "Facility" - i.e. who determines policy, who has the influences, who makes the suggestions, who makes the decisions, whether the B's exercise veto power and how they interact (i.e. collaberatively or hierarchicly) - we are twirling around blindfolded pointing fingers of blame at anyone and everyone.

We know that - as a "group" (i.e. the Bidwills, DG, RG, Keim etc.) - they've taken their own sweet time addressing the offensive line problem and all but Green and Keim get called into question for their decision to bypass Suggs and trade down for Johnson and Pace.

Drafting since DG got here seems have been strategically shrewd and made good football sense. You can argue about free agent moves (or, in some cases, lack thereof) but most of them seemed like sound ones at the time. In both cases, what remains to be seen is if enough of those decisions have been borne out on the field of play.

Personally, I think the Cardinal front office (including RG) has operated at a higher level since Coach Green got here; but all it's taken is one thing to drag us down.

Failure to fix the O-line is that one thing, and Rod Graves must shoulder a consider amount of responsibility for this. But other than that & since then -operating within the structure of a front office management "team" - I have no reason to criticize Rod. He just happens to be a logical and visible target of everyone's frustrations.

To sum up: Albeit based on incomplete info, I blame Graves for inertia re fixing the offensive line. But any personnel decisions should be based on: "Where do we go from there, and can Rod get the job done?" My guess is, looking forward, he can handle the job as well as anyone we could bring in here.