Why the Cards need to turn it around before the stadium.

[kerouac9]

I don't like Bickley any more than anyone else here. That being said, though, the writing is on the wall about West Valley stadia. A bad team could only get maybe 25,000 out to SDS. In the West Valley, for a bad team, attendance could easily be 15,000-20,000. Scary.

Too Bad Honeymoon Was So Short

 

[Renz]

I don't hink it would make as much difference to the Cardinals. Football only has 8 regular season home dates, compared to 40-something for hockey. Also, the NFL dwarfs the NHL in popularity.

 

[WizardOfAz]

Originally posted by kerouac9
I don't like Bickley any more than anyone else here. That being said, though, the writing is on the wall about West Valley stadia. A bad team could only get maybe 25,000 out to SDS. In the West Valley, for a bad team, attendance could easily be 15,000-20,000. Scary.

Comparing the Coyotes to the Cards is an "apples to oranges" comparison.

 

[kerouac9]

Re: Re: Why the Cards need to turn it around before the stadium.

Originally posted by WizardOfAz
Comparing the Coyotes to the Cards is an "apples to oranges" comparison.

I guess. That sounds a lot like denial. There are a lot of comparisons between the two franchises, as well.

 

[WizardOfAz]

Re: Re: Re: Why the Cards need to turn it around before the stadium.

Originally posted by kerouac9
That sounds a lot like denial.

How so.

Any comparison starts and stops with thw calibur/quality of the repective leagues.

Your initial post is a complete reach.

 

[SECTION 11]

Driving in rush hour traffic to the west side is completely different than driving there on a Sunday.
Hockey is doomed attendance wise until they build a west side fan base, and with one of the worst management groups in all of professional sports and an impending labor dispute, I'd be surprised if that happens any time soon.

I think it's funny that peole give them a free ride for cutting payroll before going into their brand new building.

Coyotes: new building? cut payroll
Cardinals: new building (finally) underway? triple your coaching staff's salary.
Those cheap bastards.

I digress.

 

[kerouac9]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Why the Cards need to turn it around before the stadium.

Originally posted by WizardOfAz
How so.

Any comparison starts and stops with thw calibur/quality of the repective leagues.

Your initial post is a complete reach.

A reach except for the fact that Bickey continually draws parallels between the two franchies and stadium deals.

The most direct connections between the franchises is that neither have managed to create a solid foundation within the local fan base, have made competition-negative personnel moves in recent history, and are represented by historically-iterant ownership who have promised to "put down roots" once they get new stadia. Not to mention that both franchises have their largest draws from opposition fans.

I agree that the quality of the NFL and NHL are vastly different. The thing about that, though, is that the NFL formula hasn't really taken root in Arizona. The Cards have been one of the few franchises in the NFL who haven't benefitted from the "parity" system (except 1998). Their fan base as a whole remains small (12,000-18,000 season-ticket base is inexcusable for and NFL franchise), and the rest of the denizens of the Valley are lacksidaisical, to put it lightly.

I suppose that saying that the two things have no comparison sounds like denial to me because it doesn't imagine that there might be a problem, it dismisses the fact. The Cards, like the Coyotes, are depending on offsetting the loss of East Valley ticket sales with new West Valley sales. That hasn't happened (yet) for the Coyotes. The stadia are right next to each other. Coyote ticket prices will be lower. Both teams are firmly embedded at the bottom of their leagues. These aren't similarities that can simply be ignored. There may indeed be a "West Valley Problem" for the Cards. Hopefully, they have a plan for it. The D-Backs weren't prepared for fans not wanting to come to games when the team sucked after the first season. The Coyotes apparently aren't prepared for the fact that very few fans care about hockey in the Valley and that fewer still care about going out there for 40 games a season (or whatever). The Cards better have a plan for what happens if they have consecutive 5-11 seasons in the new stadium after the honeymoon is over. The sure didn't have one for SDS.

 

[MadCardDisease]

This town is a football thirsty town. If the Cardinals start being competitive on a regular basis, the fans will return the the stadium no matter where it is located. Listen to any sport radio talk show and the Cardinals come up no matter what time of the year it is. Football is way different than hockey. Terrible comparison!

 

[SECTION 11]

I do agree whole heartedly that they should be more than competitive by 2006. It will suck if they aren't. Well, it won't make much of a difference to me, but it sure as hell won't be ideal.

 

[WizardOfAz]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why the Cards need to turn it around before the stadium.

Originally posted by kerouac9
A reach except for the fact that Bickey continually draws parallels between the two franchies and stadium deals.

Ahhh, this makes it so....in your mind I guess.

Look, I didn't say that there weren't problems. Both franchises have numerous issues. Why not lump ASU, and the Suns in there while you are at it. ASU basetball played UCLA last night, and there was noone at all sitting in the upper bowl of Wells Fargo. The Suns - this is too easy - just look at the box scores or catch a glimpse of a game on TV. ASU is giving away freaking football tickets in February for goodness sakes.

You're post doesn't even scratch the surface.

 

[kerouac9]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why the Cards need to turn it around before the stadium.

Originally posted by WizardOfAz
Ahhh, this makes it so....in your mind I guess.

Seriously, are you insane? The last quarter or so of the article directly relates the Coyotes' problem to the Cards. I guess I'm making it all up.

There are times that I wonder if Phoenix is a failed sports market. It wasn't like this fifteen years ago, before the Valley really exploded with people from other states. There were people here that lived and died with Sun Devils football. Offices were empty during Spring Training, and school classrooms would be a quarter-full in the afternoon.

The D-Backs are in worse financial shape that Bush's budgets. The Cards blame their lack of cash flow on lack of air conditioning. If the Suns aren't 10 games above 500, Tempe Public Library has about the same attendance as AWA.

I just don't think that there's the population base here to support all these teams, maybe not any of them. Demographically, Phoenix is starting to look a lot like Los Angeles. The NFL failed in Los Angeles, too. Yes, if the Cards win 10 games a season for the next decade, the fans are going to be there in droves, but the average NFL team goes about 8-8. Does Phoenix have the market to support a team like that attendance-wise? I don't know. And neither do you.

 

[Ryanwb]

I agree with Wiz, this is a complete reach. The same 40,000 that come out in unbelieveable harsh heat to watch the Cardinals get destroyed will make the additional commute to the air conditioned West Valley. It will be approaching 80 miles one way for me, but it is worth it

 

[SECTION 11]

Originally posted by Ryanwb

It will be approaching 80 miles one way for me, but it is worth it

80 miles?? Where do you live?

 

[Redheart]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why the Cards need to turn it around before the stadium.

Originally posted by kerouac9
Seriously, are you insane? The last quarter or so of the article directly relates the Coyotes' problem to the Cards. I guess I'm making it all up.

Note to K9; Never use Bickles as a backup for you opinion...sort of like using Micheal Jackson as a reference for a child day-care job.

 

[Ryanwb]

Also, Football is the most popular sport in this country, people want to watch it. I don't think I know 2 people who like the NHL

 

[Ryanwb]

Originally posted by SECTION 11
80 miles?? Where do you live?

Signal Butte and Guadalupe, as far east as you can get and still be in Mesa

 

[SECTION 11]

Originally posted by Ryanwb
Signal Butte and Guadalupe, as far east as you can get and still be in Mesa

You'd be better off driving east and going all the way around.

 

[kerouac9]

Originally posted by Ryanwb
Also, Football is the most popular sport in this country, people want to watch it. I don't think I know 2 people who like the NHL

D-Backs games regularly out-draw Cards games. Why? Because they win. Again, the NFL formula has not worked here.

I see way more Coyotes gear around then I see Cards gear. When I talk to someone about their Cards hat or whatever, almost half the time the reply is, "Oh, I'm not a fan of the team; I just liked the hat." Sounds like a fan hungry for Cardinal football.

 

[Ryanwb]

Originally posted by kerouac9
D-Backs games regularly out-draw Cards games. Why? Because they win. Again, the NFL formula has not worked here.

They didn't win **** their first year....You cannot compare the D'backs to the Cardinals. They were homegrown and people generally respect Jerry Colangelo. It is a different sport.

So you start by comparing the Cards to the Coyotes now you are comparing them to the D'backs? Why don't you just bring up the Phoenix Mercury and get it over with

 

[kerouac9]

Originally posted by Ryanwb
They didn't win **** their first year....You cannot compare the D'backs to the Cardinals. They were homegrown and people generally respect Jerry Colangelo. It is a different sport.

So you start by comparing the Cards to the Coyotes now you are comparing them to the D'backs? Why don't you just bring up the Phoenix Mercury and get it over with

That's not what I'm saying. No one went to D-backs games this season when they sucked most of the time.

Apparently, all the sports franchises in the Valley are totally unrelated and you can't compare any of them nor make broader statements about the temperature of the Valley market on how they respond to those franchses. I hope that that sand your head is buried in is neither too hot nor too cold.

 

[SECTION 11]

I think people in the Valley use Bidwill as an excuse to avoid the reality of how much they utterly suck as sports fans.

 

[kerouac9]

Originally posted by SECTION 11
I think people in the Valley use Bidwill as an excuse to avoid the reality of how much they utterly suck as sports fans.

I believe that this is the long and the short of what I'm trying to say. IMO, what the Cards are doing are moving away from some of their less sucky fans and into an area with a base of, at best, unknown quality fans.

The only thing is that the location that they're moving to is going to have a far larger population of transplants, and that doesn't bode well for a franchise that hasn't done much to connect with native fans.

 

[SECTION 11]

Well, you can't turn a flat tire into a pygmy. I've always said that.

 

[Jttsaz]

Originally posted by Ryanwb
Signal Butte and Guadalupe, as far east as you can get and still be in Mesa

Hell I drive up from Tucson!

 

[Ryanwb]

Originally posted by Jttsaz
Hell I drive up from Tucson!

..and you have a better golf game. Do we have to keep bringing these things up?