Why the obsession with Holliday?

[mdsisquo]

I just don't get it guys. Now, I'm just going by memory here (3:00am and too tired to go searching for info...) but I believe Holliday had only 6 or 7 sacks last year with 4 or 5 in the last game of the season. He dedicated the last game last year to his cousin (or some type of family member) who passes away and just went nuts. Now, if a guy can turn it on like that, don't you think he could have easily had 12+ sacks last year if he was trying at all? Seems like his hustle is questionable at best.
Point #2, where does he fit? If we do sign him he plays LDE? Well I think we allready have a great LDE in KVB, but we need to move him to the left. If we can get suggs, suggs plays the RDE spot. So KVB is riding the bench? I don't like that at all. And I don't want to hear anything about Suggs only being used on 3rd downs, if we get him we better have him in on all plays.
I just dont see how Holliday fits into this team. IMO, it would actually complicate things more. He just doesn't tickle my fancy.

 

[Goldfield]

Holliday was injured for like 3-6 weeks so his sacks were not a full seasons worth...

The guy is a solid DE in this league. Holliday and Vandenbosh would be a big improvment from last season.

Although I like Vandenbosh alot, i dont think he is a "great" player as u put it. I would much rather see Holliday and Suggs out there with Vandenbosh rotating on both DE spots to keep everyone freshand improving goaline depth...

Vandenbosh and Suggs wouldnt be to bad either but there is no garentee Suggs will even be there so we cant just wait and see...

PASS RUSH IS A MUST!

Jackson/willson/barrett/starks will all be wasted if there is no pass rush...

Go get a DE F/A, and see what happens in the draft...

 

[Second Deck]

I like Wakefield but he should not be the starting RDE on this team. He cannot provide any real pass rush. Holliday would be a good upgrade and with Bryant going into his second year it would be an improvement. If we are planning on drafting Suggs then I would not pursue Holliday.

 

[Goldfield]

thats the problem, you cant "plan" on a player in the draft unless your #1.

What would be so wrong with Holliday and Suggs as our 2004 DE's?

I like both Vandenbosh and Wakefield but this isnt a popularity contest, i wanna win...

 

[Cardiac]

What Beerz said and that Holliday can move to DT on pass rushing downs to give us more of a rush from that position. This move would upgrade depth, give the Cards more of a pass rush from every D-Line position and upgrade our run Defense as well.

1st and 2nd downs

LDE Holliday / KVB / Wakefield
LDT Tanner / Bell
RDT Bryant / Bell
RDE KVB / Holliday

3rd downs

LDE KVB
LDT Holliday / Bell
RDT Bryant
RDE Johnson Holliday or player to be named later

Would have loved to include Colvin's name at RDE on passing downs.

No matter what the line up this D-Line won't terrorize anyone so even with Holliday's signing we still need a premo RDE.

At least we have some depth and multiple looks we can go with.

 

[BuckeyeCardinal]

Originally posted by Rowland Price
I like Wakefield but he should not be the starting RDE on this team. He cannot provide any real pass rush. Holliday would be a good upgrade and with Bryant going into his second year it would be an improvement. If we are planning on drafting Suggs then I would not pursue Holliday.

I don't think Suggs will be there when we pick.

Suggs and Leftwich are the 2 guys I wouldn't pass on....but who knows what the brass has in mind.

 

[BACH]

First, Suggs are moving up on most draft boards, so the chance of him being there at #6 is close to zero..

Second, Holliday is a complete DE, who can play both the run and rush the passer. True, he's only averaging 6-8 sacks per season (but still about 3-times as much as the best Cardinal DE), but he's also way better than the stats might indicate. Injuries have kept him out of some games, but the way the Packers rotate their DL have had an impact on that number as well, because Holliday in the last two seasons only played DE on running downs. On passing downs he moved to Gilbert Brown's DT and KGB took over at DE.

 

[Red Air Force]

No matter what, he and Okefor are an upgrade over wakefield. Since we cant bank on Suggs being available, we HAVE to sign one of these guys just to cover our own arse.

 

[Ed B]

I agree with the thread author. Holliday is wildly overrated. He just happens to be the best DE available.

I'd be happy to have him but some fans are losing touch with reality, he's a 5-8 sack per year guy at best. Not like he's gonna come in here and get 13 sacks all the sudden.

And saying "he'd have more sacks but he was injured" is ridiculous, the guy is hurt constantly, that's one of the knocks against him.

 

[BACH]

Originally posted by Ed B
I'd be happy to have him but some fans are losing touch with reality, he's a 5-8 sack per year guy at best. Not like he's gonna come in here and get 13 sacks all the sudden.

I agree. He's not a flat-out pass-rusher like Freeney, KGB, Rice, Kearse etc. But if he can play the run and get 8-10 sacks per season, which I think is a realistic number if he plays all down at DE, I would take him.

Originally posted by Ed B
...the guy is hurt constantly, that's one of the knocks against him.

Hurt constantly??? He's been in the league 5 years. He missed 6 games last year and 4 in 2000 due to injury...

 

[CardsFan88]

Holliday can stop the run
Holliday can pass rush decently at worst...if he can realize his potential..yeah the potential word...he can be good...not great..but good.
Holliday can play de/dt and play both well

Holliday in that final game had more sacks than all of the cards in the last games (about).

Rice=Premium pass rush+ bad run stuffer = 20 mill bonus
Holliday= decent pass rush+ stellar run stuffer = ?3-4 mill a season???

Both excell at only one, except holliday is a far better pass rusher than rice is run stuffer.....by far.

Yeah rice got better at run stuffing, but how could he not with that line. I bet he reverts back to form next year, it was more of a fluke I believe.

Who would be overpayed? Rice or Holliday?

I know we need a pass rush, but we need to stop the run too. We did decent last year for the first time in a long time, but we can do better. With holliday, his section of the line would do better.

If he can get 8-10 sacks a year, or even 6-8..it doesn't matter. He can stop the run.

Tell me who on the cards line has achieved what holliday has...no one. Our leading sack guy was 2.5 a think last year...6-8 looks like all pro to me...especially if he can stop the run...

Yeah I want leftwich/suggs...be happy with either...but I don't think the cards will get him (fall/or trade up)

We need a pass rush, and run stopping, and who is out there that will give us that? Not much, we can get a guy that can rush the passer as good as anyone that is left...and hasn't reached his potential yet...and get a guy who is stellar at the art of run stuffing.

Do we need a pass rushing de on this team, or a DE/DT run stiffing average at worst pass rush?

I say holliday would be a great pickup...unless we get suggs, there is no stellar pass rusher

 

[Ed B]

Originally posted by BACH


Hurt constantly??? He's been in the league 5 years. He missed 6 games last year and 4 in 2000 due to injury...

I used to live near Green Bay and it was always a matter of explaining his lack of sack production through one injury after another, like Tom Knight. It was always "Oh he only had 5 sacks this year but he was playing with a bruised back" or sprained ankle or slap lesion or whatever.

 

[AZCB34]

Originally posted by Ed B
I used to live near Green Bay and it was always a matter of explaining his lack of sack production through one injury after another, like Tom Knight. It was always "Oh he only had 5 sacks this year but he was playing with a bruised back" or sprained ankle or slap lesion or whatever.

Also, those 10 games doesn't count the number of games he started and didn't finish.

I, personally, never focused on Holliday. I always thought...and still do...that if the Cards get him, it is a nice addition but nothing great. The reason I think people are pushing hard for him...and this is purely speculation on my part...is that in the backs of their minds they don't believe they will get a crack at Suggs at #6 so they just want to make sure something happens at the DE position.

Every year I spend time in Green Bay/Appleton (my wife was born and raised there) and Holliday is constantly being criticized for his "lack of toughness" and the fact he sits out for relatrively minor injuries.

 

[JeffGollin]

If Vonnie continues to defer on his decision...

Can we best describe him as "Holliday on Ice?"

 

[Skkorpion]

Bob Kemp on KDUS just opined he thought Vonnie Holiday was blowing smoke up our asses when he said he had a nice visit here.

We will soon see. Hugh Douglas will topple all the DT/DE dominoes very soon. Apparently, Seattle has made Douglas an offer. Stay tuned.

 

[azdeftone]

First some of the post here were confusing wakefield is NOT a RDE dont know where you got that. KVB has played RDE and Wake on the LDE. Holliday has had I beleive 25 sacks in the last 2 seasons which is probally close to our team totals. Holiday would be a HUGE upgrade at RDE and move KVB to LDE and he would be more effective. Wendall should be greatly improved now that he has had time in the system. So signing one good RDE could greatly improve our D, which is why it is imperative they sign a RDE.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by azdeftone
First some of the post here were confusing wakefield is NOT a RDE dont know where you got that. KVB has played RDE and Wake on the LDE. Holliday has had I beleive 25 sacks in the last 2 seasons which is probally close to our team totals. Holiday would be a HUGE upgrade at RDE and move KVB to LDE and he would be more effective. Wendall should be greatly improved now that he has had time in the system. So signing one good RDE could greatly improve our D, which is why it is imperative they sign a RDE.

Ummm, Holiday hasn't had 25 sacks in the past two seasons.... more like 12 or so (?)

 

[Chopper0080]

The difference is that Holliday has shown he can be an every down defensive end, thus helping our defense on every play. He isn't a situational guy and he does improve our pass rush but wouldn't hurt our run defense like most guys.


I'll be honest, I think that D Johnson will be starting by the end of the year. The man just has more physical talent than almost anybody else on our line (Bryant could be the exception) and since he should be naturally getting bigger and stronger (old man muscles, no not the medical term for it) I expect big things from him.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by Chopper0080



I'll be honest, I think that D Johnson will be starting by the end of the year. The man just has more physical talent than almost anybody else on our line (Bryant could be the exception) and since he should be naturally getting bigger and stronger (old man muscles, no not the medical term for it) I expect big things from him.

I hope so too, but with Meek Joe Greene, I wouldn't bet on it.

 

[Mrospi]

http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/12446

Link to Vonnie stats!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

He's a definite upgrade and will help.... but he didn't have 25 sacks

 

[Ed B]

Originally posted by Krangthebrain
I hope so too, but with Meek Joe Greene, I wouldn't bet on it.

Amen.

Greene has never developed anyone. I weep for Bryant and Johnson........so much talent going to waste.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by Ed B
Amen.

Greene has never developed anyone. I weep for Bryant and Johnson........so much talent going to waste.

Heck, I weep for Tanner, Bell, KVB, Wakefield, and even Thomas Burke....not to mention a guy who was on our IR last year who has tremendous speed, Alton Moore.

 

[AZCB34]

Originally posted by Ed B
Amen.

Greene has never developed anyone. I weep for Bryant and Johnson........so much talent going to waste.

Now, Mean Joe will only wreck the Dts since they hired the DEs coach, So we will be weak and confused up the middle and better outside...

 

[SECTION 11]

Originally posted by AZCB34
confused up the middle and better outside...

sounds like a date i had once....