Why? This is absurd....

[Phill11]

Why are we talking about trading the core nucleus of this team?

People I'm hearing in Trade rumors:

Jacobsen (23 Yeard Old)
Marion (26 Years old)
Johnson (23 Years Old)

(Sorry if ages are wrong)

These players are young and in their prime. Why trade them?

We have a great bunch of younger, athletic, shooters, dunkers, and more. I'd rather see this team struggle a bit next year, and gel. And then have a great season in 06-07. Marion/Amare are the guys to build this team around. Jacobsen is a great clubhouse guy, a great guy to have on the team, and is our best 3 point shooter (Nash is up there with him). JJ is just hitting his stride. I'm not a huge JJ fan, since he's showed me inconsistency.

I also hope that the Clips match Q's offer. I'd rather have the Suns put the money to resiging a key young player. I'm happy with our roster. Nash was a great pickup. I still have hopes of us signing a big man (Maybe PF/C type). I personally want to see Traylor in a Suns uni. He reminds me of a mini Shaq. He's big, and is a hard worker. I see some Bo Outlaw in him. Maybe it's just me.

Here's my predictions, minute charts, etc. if things go my way.

What happens:
Q signs with Clips
We trade Eisley for anything (Bo Outlaw?)

Here's minutes at each position:

PG- Nash (35) / Barbosa (13)
SG- Johnson (36) / Jacobsen ( 12)
SF- Marion (40) / Zarko (8 )
PF- Amare (25) / Zarko (13) / Vroman (10)
C- Lampe (18 )/ Voshkul (15) / Amare ( 15)

Other players get a few minutes a game.

So here is a player by player breakdown of how many minutes they'll play per game, and how I think they'll do next year...

Nash - (35 Minutes PG) - 17 PPG/ 9 APG / 5 REB
Barbosa - (13 Minutes PG) - 6 PPG / 3 APG / 1 REB
Johnson - (26 Minutes PG) - 18 PPG / 4 APG / 5 REB
Jacobsen (12 Minutes PG) - 7 PPG / 2 APG / 1 REB
Marion - (40 Minutes PG) - 20 PPG / 4 APG / 8 REB
Zarko - (21 Minutes PG) - 10 PPG / 2 APG / 5 REB
Amare - (40 Minutes PG) - 20 PPG / 2 APG / 10 REB
Vroman - (10 Minutes PG) - 4 PPG / 1 APG / 4 REB
Lampe - (18 Minutes PG) - 8 PPG / .5 APG / 6 REB
Voshkul - (15 Minutes PG) - 4 PPG / .5 APG / 4 REB

With this team, it'd score 100+ A night. So the stats are overall predictions. So somedays people have off nights, etc. They're "Predictions".

I think with 10 minutes a game Vroman can develop. Lampe can show what he can do too. This team can work the young players into the mix. I'd like to see Barbosa get more minutes than what I said.

What do you think? I like out chances with this team. I think it's a solid team, with potential to be in the top 5-6 teams in the West.

 

[The Commish]

I agree Phill, the Suns should keep their core of young talented players together. There are only two exceptions in my book in which we trade Marion or JJ, and that would be to get Dalembert or Nene. Other than that, I believe your predictions are pretty good. People often forget how important team chemistry is. Look at Sac-town and San Antonio. Their rosters havent changed at all over the past few years and they've done well.

We're not going to win any championships this year, so why would you want to mortgage the future just to pick up a "B" team center. We have Chi's pick for next year (most likely), and I see no reason why we couldnt get a decent big man with that (hopefully not Euro). The suns future is bright, and I would hate to see key elements of the team traded away for a "need".

 

[George O'Brien]

There is always the dream that you can trade your way to the championship. Sometimes it actually happens, but not usually. Often the best trades are initially minor ones that gets the team solid prospects who later bloom. But that takes time.

It is much more exciting to make a splashy trade that jumps the team into the championship game - if it works. Usually it doesn't even if the trade comes through (for example, I do not think Houston will finish much higher than they did this past season).

Preaching "patience" is rarely well received, yet trading away good young players is rarely the road to success.

 

[elindholm]

Preaching "patience" is rarely well received, yet trading away good young players is rarely the road to success.

Let's be fair. "Gelling" is rarely the road to success either.

Since 1980, only seven franchises have won championships: Los Angeles, Boston, Houston, Philadelphia, Detroit, Chicago, and San Antonio. Even if you consider that a few of those clubs had multiple "incarnations" that won titles, it's a very short list.

The Suns right now have organic weaknesses in the front court. I think most reasonable people would agree on that. The question is, which path is more likely to address those weaknesses: a trade, or the maturation of the current crew? A case can be made for either, but neither side of the argument should attempt to claim superior wisdom over the other.

 

[NJYAJ09]

I guess we hope we can get QRich, trade Eisley for someone like Mihm, then Next Year take Marty Vicious, or the year after that Greg Oden, wait until 2008 when Amare is reaching his prime and Vicious/Oden will be rock solid at C and let Q, JJ, and Marion keep progressing.


wow, that was confusing.

 

[Gaddabout]

Since 1980, only seven franchises have won championships: Los Angeles, Boston, Houston, Philadelphia, Detroit, Chicago, and San Antonio. Even if you consider that a few of those clubs had multiple "incarnations" that won titles, it's a very short list.

The similarities I find striking about the above teams:

- All but Chicago had a legitimate center, if not a HOF center, when they won their rings.

- All but Chicago and San Antonio had profound depth, but even the Bulls and Spurs had role players who excelled when called upon.

- All of these teams had at least two first-team All Stars, and Detroit's most recent championship is the only team I could think of that didn't draft their best player. My memory could be a little foggy on the details, but I think I'm right.

 

[Joe Mama]

The similarities I find striking about the above teams:

- All but Chicago had a legitimate center, if not a HOF center, when they won their rings.

- All but Chicago and San Antonio had profound depth, but even the Bulls and Spurs had role players who excelled when called upon.

- All of these teams had at least two first-team All Stars, and Detroit's most recent championship is the only team I could think of that didn't draft their best player. My memory could be a little foggy on the details, but I think I'm right.

the Lakers didn't draft their best player. Orlando did. The bottom line is that in order to win a championship you have to have health, decent depth, and good players that play well together. It's not rocket science. You need to be a will to score more points than your opponents in four out of of seven games.

Joe Mama

 

[coloradosun]

Charlotte also did, and they just resigned the player they traded for Kobe.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

The similarities I find striking about the above teams:

- All but Chicago had a legitimate center, if not a HOF center, when they won their rings.

- All but Chicago and San Antonio had profound depth, but even the Bulls and Spurs had role players who excelled when called upon.

- All of these teams had at least two first-team All Stars, and Detroit's most recent championship is the only team I could think of that didn't draft their best player. My memory could be a little foggy on the details, but I think I'm right.

the latest incarnation of the lakers didn't draft either of their top two players. shaq was a free agent signing and kobe was traded for (granted, on draft day, but nevertheless, he was not drafted by the lakers).

okay, guess this point was pounded into the ground!

 

[SweetD]

If Casey is at his prime we need to trade him if we can. He is not a good player off the bench I would much rather have a back C then him if we get Q

 

[Gaddabout]

the Lakers didn't draft their best player. Orlando did. The bottom line is that in order to win a championship you have to have health, decent depth, and good players that play well together. It's not rocket science. You need to be a will to score more points than your opponents in four out of of seven games.

Joe Mama

I'll give you Shaq and note that Kobe was a draft day trade. I'll even give you Moses Malone as a 76ers trade acquisition -- he was 83 league MVP and the primary reason the Sixers swept the Lakers in the Finals that year, although Dr. J's legacy is 10 times that of Malone's and was a better player over his career. It's also funny how we remember Magic as the face of the 80s Lakers, but it was Kareem who drove that engine and the Lakers traded for him years before Magic.

They also totally lucked out with James Worthy (top pick in draft when Lakers had just won a championship -- part of the deal with the Cavs for Don Ford!!). However, this shows Jerry West's great foresight ... or at least his staff's foresight. They had Jamaal Wilkes, one of the best small forwards in the NBA, when they drafted Worthy. They could have reasonably traded the pick and people still would've considered them genius. Instead, they pick Worthy, who would go on to become one of the all-time greatest playoff/clutch players in history.

Still, I think the above list reveals there's something special about drafting your own players. Those teams were good before they were great, and used the draft (and plucky trades for picks) to get over the hump.

 

[Phill11]

If Casey is at his prime we need to trade him if we can. He is not a good player off the bench I would much rather have a back C then him if we get Q

Casey isn't in his prime. His prime is near though. He'll probably be a great 15 PPG guy in 2-3 years. He just needs minutes.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Casey isn't in his prime. His prime is near though. He'll probably be a great 15 PPG guy in 2-3 years. He just needs minutes.

I can't believe some of the stuff I read here. CJ has shown ZERO ability to be a 15 point scorer in this league. I know we a love the Suns you guys, but the lack of objectivity or just flat-out purple kool-aid here is so eerily reminicent of another board on this site.

 

[SweetD]

Casey isn't in his prime. His prime is near though. He'll probably be a great 15 PPG guy in 2-3 years. He just needs minutes.

And that is what I am getting at he will never get those minutes with the Suns. I still don't think Casey will be able to put up 15ppg. He is a role player at best but he still thinks he can be a starter in the NBA I just don't see it.

 

[George O'Brien]

I can't believe some of the stuff I read here. CJ has shown ZERO ability to be a 15 point scorer in this league. I know we a love the Suns you guys, but the lack of objectivity or just flat-out purple kool-aid here is so eerily reminicent of another board on this site.

I'm sure Casey could score 15 ppg. I'm not sure he could do it in a way that helps the team win, but that's a separate issue.

One problem with the Suns is that their offense is not geared to creating screens for shooters. They run a lot of picks, but none of the double screens that gets Reggie Miller open all the time. I watched Chris Mullen with the Warriors and he was not the most athletic guy around, but he was on a team that ran a lot of screens to get him open and he hit his shots.

People who have seen him this summer say the release on his shot seems quicker and he really is trying to develop a mid range game. None the less, even if he shot just the way he did last year but in a different offense, I think his numbers would have been much higher.

 

[Joe Mama]

I'm sure Casey could score 15 ppg. I'm not sure he could do it in a way that helps the team win, but that's a separate issue.

One problem with the Suns is that their offense is not geared to creating screens for shooters. They run a lot of picks, but none of the double screens that gets Reggie Miller open all the time. I watched Chris Mullen with the Warriors and he was not the most athletic guy around, but he was on a team that ran a lot of screens to get him open and he hit his shots.

People who have seen him this summer say the release on his shot seems quicker and he really is trying to develop a mid range game. None the less, even if he shot just the way he did last year but in a different offense, I think his numbers would have been much higher.

Casey Jacobsen could score 15 points per game, but he wouldn't be doing it on a very good team. I wouldn't just give him away like that would have a year or two ago, but I definitely wouldn't be opposed to trading him in a good deal.

I have watched several of the Phoenix Suns summer league games. Whoever told you that CJ is working on developing his mid range game has seen something that I haven't seen. He's doing very well, but it's all three-point shots and drives to the basket. Now one thing he is doing better is finding the open man when he drives to the basket.

Joe Mama

 

[Chaz]

Nice Post!

Why are we talking about trading the core nucleus of this team?

People I'm hearing in Trade rumors:

Jacobsen (23 Yeard Old)
Marion (26 Years old)
Johnson (23 Years Old)

(Sorry if ages are wrong)

These players are young and in their prime. Why trade them?

We have a great bunch of younger, athletic, shooters, dunkers, and more. I'd rather see this team struggle a bit next year, and gel. And then have a great season in 06-07. Marion/Amare are the guys to build this team around. Jacobsen is a great clubhouse guy, a great guy to have on the team, and is our best 3 point shooter (Nash is up there with him). JJ is just hitting his stride. I'm not a huge JJ fan, since he's showed me inconsistency.

I also hope that the Clips match Q's offer. I'd rather have the Suns put the money to resiging a key young player. I'm happy with our roster. Nash was a great pickup. I still have hopes of us signing a big man (Maybe PF/C type). I personally want to see Traylor in a Suns uni. He reminds me of a mini Shaq. He's big, and is a hard worker. I see some Bo Outlaw in him. Maybe it's just me.

Here's my predictions, minute charts, etc. if things go my way.

What happens:
Q signs with Clips
We trade Eisley for anything (Bo Outlaw?)

Here's minutes at each position:

PG- Nash (35) / Barbosa (13)
SG- Johnson (36) / Jacobsen ( 12)
SF- Marion (40) / Zarko (8 )
PF- Amare (25) / Zarko (13) / Vroman (10)
C- Lampe (18 )/ Voshkul (15) / Amare ( 15)

Other players get a few minutes a game.

So here is a player by player breakdown of how many minutes they'll play per game, and how I think they'll do next year...

Nash - (35 Minutes PG) - 17 PPG/ 9 APG / 5 REB
Barbosa - (13 Minutes PG) - 6 PPG / 3 APG / 1 REB
Johnson - (26 Minutes PG) - 18 PPG / 4 APG / 5 REB
Jacobsen (12 Minutes PG) - 7 PPG / 2 APG / 1 REB
Marion - (40 Minutes PG) - 20 PPG / 4 APG / 8 REB
Zarko - (21 Minutes PG) - 10 PPG / 2 APG / 5 REB
Amare - (40 Minutes PG) - 20 PPG / 2 APG / 10 REB
Vroman - (10 Minutes PG) - 4 PPG / 1 APG / 4 REB
Lampe - (18 Minutes PG) - 8 PPG / .5 APG / 6 REB
Voshkul - (15 Minutes PG) - 4 PPG / .5 APG / 4 REB

With this team, it'd score 100+ A night. So the stats are overall predictions. So somedays people have off nights, etc. They're "Predictions".

I think with 10 minutes a game Vroman can develop. Lampe can show what he can do too. This team can work the young players into the mix. I'd like to see Barbosa get more minutes than what I said.

What do you think? I like out chances with this team. I think it's a solid team, with potential to be in the top 5-6 teams in the West.

I agree, except the part about Jacobsen being part of the core. I have high hopes for Zarko but he scores double figures this year I will be shocked.

I think this team will have a lot of growing pains this year, but I think it is to early in the experiment to start trading JJ, Amare, or Marion. I think this season will tell a lot about how far this team could go and I am looking forward to the ride.

 

[AmareFan]

I agree, Casey will struggle to score 15 ppg with the limited time he is seeing..However, keep in mind that 100ppg is good but based on last years stats our defense was horrible...Nash will not improve our defense, so 100 ppg may and will not be enough...we need someone in the middle to toughen up our defense and all of our current big men are not the best defenders. Lampie is horrible at Def...we need a big man who can defend.

 

[George O'Brien]

I agree, Casey will struggle to score 15 ppg with the limited time he is seeing..However, keep in mind that 100ppg is good but based on last years stats our defense was horrible...Nash will not improve our defense, so 100 ppg may and will not be enough...we need someone in the middle to toughen up our defense and all of our current big men are not the best defenders. Lampie is horrible at Def...we need a big man who can defend.

This is hardly a new problem. The Colangelos don't want to overpay for mediocre big men, but that leave them with guys who are not even average.

I am reconciled to the fact that the Suns are going to horrible on defense this season. I think we are looking at a team that will be too much like the Mavericks (not as good shooting threes but better inside and going to the basket). The fact is that the Mavs got to the second round a year ago and have won a lot of games. The Maverick's problem is in the playoffs when other teams are allowed to foul when playing defense. At that point, their weak defense is fatal.

The irony is that Mavs with their enormous salary structure may be further from being a contender than the Suns. The Suns have a top low post threat and a young center who is big enough and athletic enough to be a solid inside guy. The Mavs have neither and now don't even have an experienced PG. They may finish ahead of the Suns this year, but the Suns have a better long term prospects.

 

[Phill11]

Jacobsen isn't the "Core", but I feel he can play a valuable role for this team. He's a great 6th or 7th man. Great off court personel too. He can score 15 point in about 30 minutes, I think. But he won't get those minutes here.

The main point of this thread was hopefully for some of you to notice that we should trade the young core of this team (Marion, JJ, Zarko, etc.).

 

[Brandon_Webb]

Jacobsen isn't the "Core", but I feel he can play a valuable role for this team. He's a great 6th or 7th man. Great off court personel too. He can score 15 point in about 30 minutes, I think. But he won't get those minutes here.

The main point of this thread was hopefully for some of you to notice that we should trade the young core of this team (Marion, JJ, Zarko, etc.).

shouldn't???

 

[George O'Brien]

My view of the Suns excluding Q:

Core (not traded except for established stars)

Stoudemire
Nash
Marion
Johnson

Rotation Players (should either start or get over 20 minutes)

Voskuhl
Lampe
Barbosa
Cabakapa (unless the Suns get Q)

Role Players (will get under 20 minutes per game unless there are injuries)

Jacobsen
Vroman
Eisley

I don't see the Suns moving a rotation player except in a deal for a likely starter.

 

[Errntknght]

In general I agree with the idea of keeping the core but this team is in desperate need of players who work hard getting themselves open for shots. Not necessarily like Rip Hamilton or Reggie - a Matt Harpring or Corliss Williamson type would be even better because they rub their defender off without lots of screens being set for them. The Suns have almost abandoned the use of off ball screens, you may have noticed.

Marion is my candidate to be traded because he is the least active of the bunch and occupies a position which should provide the type of movement the team needs. There's a lot to like about his game but that also gives him his trade value.

 

[George O'Brien]

In general I agree with the idea of keeping the core but this team is in desperate need of players who work hard getting themselves open for shots. Not necessarily like Rip Hamilton or Reggie - a Matt Harpring or Corliss Williamson type would be even better because they rub their defender off without lots of screens being set for them. The Suns have almost abandoned the use of off ball screens, you may have noticed.

Marion is my candidate to be traded because he is the least active of the bunch and occupies a position which should provide the type of movement the team needs. There's a lot to like about his game but that also gives him his trade value.

I think the Suns will be making a lot of changes in their half court offense this season with the addition of Nash. Last season, no one seemed to be able to pass the ball to someone on the move, so everyone would stand still if they wanted the ball. That will change and I think Marion will begin moving without the ball -- finally.

I know people think I'm a broken record about my problems with Marbury at PG, but he really was responsible for much of the stagnation of the offense. Virtually evern play involved him running by a pick (often starting too early BTW) and trying to drive the basket. In some cases he would do a pick and roll and in other cases he would a drive and kickback if a wing defender tried to help. The best way to get the ball was simply to stand around and wait for the kick out pass.

Neither FJ nor D'Antoni could get Marbury to pass the ball early in the offense. He would either drive or take a jump shot. Getting close to the basket didn't help and Stephon admitted he couldn't make an Alley Oop pass if this live depended on it. Also, he was not that good at making entry passes to Amare either.

Trading Stephon did not really change things as much as they should have because the offense was being run by a totally inexperienced rookie and a shooting guard. For the most part, JJ ran the same offense as Stephon did, but with more entry passes and somewhat better passing to Marion (Shawn's numers rose quite a bit after Stephon left).

I think the Suns offense will be dramatically different than last year and Marion will change his style a lot.

 

[Joe Mama]

The irony is that Mavs with their enormous salary structure may be further from being a contender than the Suns. The Suns have a top low post threat and a young center who is big enough and athletic enough to be a solid inside guy. The Mavs have neither and now don't even have an experienced PG. They may finish ahead of the Suns this year, but the Suns have a better long term prospects.

Who is that? Lampe's defense looked better in the last game or so of the summer league, but that hardly means he will be a solid, inside guy. I think Lampe could be a decent center/backup power forward, but I don't believe for a second that he will be anything more than barely adequate as an inside player. He is quick and has nice lateral movement. His vertical leap rivals Big Jake's though. He has no explosiveness around the basket.

Joe Mama