Why Whiz should be on the heatseat.

Duckjake

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As far as I'm concerned it's obvious it is a personnel evaluation problem and not a coaching problem, except for the offensive line of course. CKW was 27-21 and won an nfc championship with other coaches guys and is 13-19 with his guys.

Who is at fault? Who knows. Somers will clue us in 3-4 years from now.
 
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Darkside

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As far as I'm concerned it's obvious it is a personnel evaluation problem and not a coaching problem, except for the offensive line of course. CKW was 27-21 and won an nfc championship with other coaches guys and is 13-19 with his guys.

Who is at fault? Who knows. Somers will clue us in 3-4 years from now.

Agree. We should also acknowledge that the two leaders on both sides of the ball in Fitz and Adub are also throwbacks to prior regimes (McGinnis and Denny Green). Denny Green helped draft most of the talent on our trip to the SB: Boldin, Fitz, Rolle, Smith, Dansby, and others. I always downplayed that before because I think Rolle, Smith, Dansby and Boldin were either replaceable or have been replaced (not in Boldin's case). But facts don't lie and I'm starting to wonder. It's hard to lose that many play-makers--I'm talking each dude being able to totally impact a game and take it for 6--and remain top-notch.

Green and Whis have totally different drafting philosophies: Green always loved drafting big school players while Whis seems hellbent on finding late round gems.

I'm not knocking Whis, I love the dude. I think with Whis we probably have more depth overall and a better football team as a whole (with two huge, glaring weaknesses in our QB and Oline). But with Green you get alot of playmakers. The chemistry is probably much better under Whis and he was able to coach Green's dudes better than Green could.

I guess I still blame Whis more than most people when it comes to the draft and FA and getting playmakers/gamebreakers. Also still believe Whis has more input to Rod Graves than people want to acknowledge. Look at Floyd, Dan Williams, others. Yes, it takes time, but it didn't take Fitz or Boldin much time at all to start making plays. Pretty much the first game of their rookie season.

Still think we have a strong team in every area except QB and Oline, all that being said. Those just happen to be the two most important factors in today's NFL. Point of attack and QB. Can't do anything with a crappy Oline or a bad QB.
 

moosehead

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Why can't the Cardinals do that ? Cause they run an offense that is mind numbingly too hard for the modern football team.

Isn't Whiz an engineer? I spent most of my career in manufacturing and a LOT of the engineers I met were geniuses when it came to theory or building things on paper; not so much when it came to the practical application of said knowledge...

(If you're an engineer, no offense meant; you weren't all like that :) )
 

Cardiac

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Agree. We should also acknowledge that the two leaders on both sides of the ball in Fitz and Adub are also throwbacks to prior regimes (McGinnis and Denny Green). Denny Green helped draft most of the talent on our trip to the SB: Boldin, Fitz, Rolle, Smith, Dansby, and others. I always downplayed that before because I think Rolle, Smith, Dansby and Boldin were either replaceable or have been replaced (not in Boldin's case). But facts don't lie and I'm starting to wonder. It's hard to lose that many play-makers--I'm talking each dude being able to totally impact a game and take it for 6--and remain top-notch.

Boldin was drafted during the McGinnis regime.

Green had one outstanding draft which was his in his 1st year with the Cards. Fitz, Dansby and Docket were all home runs. Antonio Smith was a GREAT find in rd 5.

The 2005 draft was basically a total failure. Rolle was drafted to high and for the wrong position. No other players we selected in that draft did anything except JJ Arrington and was basically a bust considering he was a 2nd rd pick.

Greens last draft with the Cards landed us Leinart, Duece and Pope. None with the team and only Duece showed starter ability.


Green and Whis have totally different drafting philosophies: Green always loved drafting big school players while Whis seems hellbent on finding late round gems.

Green gets credit for helping drag Graves and company to a legit format and philosophy on how to run a draft.

I think Keim is hellbent on finding talent wherever possible. The fact that they have found a bunch from small schools is a feather in their caps.


I'm not knocking Whis, I love the dude. I think with Whis we probably have more depth overall and a better football team as a whole (with two huge, glaring weaknesses in our QB and Oline). But with Green you get alot of playmakers. The chemistry is probably much better under Whis and he was able to coach Green's dudes better than Green could.

Agree with most of this. Not so sure Green drafted more "playmakers" then Whiz. DRC, PP, CC, Wash, Hyphen have all proven to be playmakers. Ryan Williams and Bethel appear to be playmakers.
Andre Roberts and Housler are on pace to be playmakers.


I guess I still blame Whis more than most people when it comes to the draft and FA and getting playmakers/gamebreakers. Also still believe Whis has more input to Rod Graves than people want to acknowledge. Look at Floyd, Dan Williams, others. Yes, it takes time, but it didn't take Fitz or Boldin much time at all to start making plays. Pretty much the first game of their rookie season.

Just because Whiz is a very good speaker and gets the most airtime doesn't mean he was the final say so on draft picks. What I mean is when states why the Cards took Dan Williams it's after hours and hours of discussions with Keim and the scouting department and the entire FO. So while Whiz says this is what WE like about Dan Williams much. if not all, of that is based on the previous draft prep conversations.

Still think we have a strong team in every area except QB and Oline, all that being said. Those just happen to be the two most important factors in today's NFL. Point of attack and QB. Can't do anything with a crappy Oline or a bad QB.

I agree that QB and O-line are the weakest units. I will add that OLBers need some attention as well.

Many teams don't put a lot of capital into their O-lines. Giants come immediately to mind. Plus as the NFL continues to evolve there are pundits who now think OG's are more important than OT's.

Cards went to the SB with Gandy as their starting LT and Levi Brown (who most think sucks) as the starting RT. No probowlers what so ever on the O-line.

My point is that I think teams prioritize positions/units as:
QB
Pass Rushers
then a "tie" at CB 's, WR's, LT's, DT's.
next tier is TE's, Safety's, OG's, ILBers.
Centers
Kickers
FB

Some teams will have OG's moved up a notch while other teams would move TE's up a notch.
 

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Should be fired if he doesn't get the team above 8-8 to send a message that mediocrity will not be tolerated. However, this season looks to be the culmination of a very poor offseason where the team made zero effort to improve so I hope the FO also follow him out the door.
 

Cardiac

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Should be fired if he doesn't get the team above 8-8 to send a message that mediocrity will not be tolerated. However, this season looks to be the culmination of a very poor offseason where the team made zero effort to improve so I hope the FO also follow him out the door.

Over reaction.

As Joeshmo has posted, changes were made in the FO and scouting department recently.

I don't think anyone in the Cards organization believes Mediocrity is acceptable.

If you have a brain tumor you don't remove the entire brain.....right.
 

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Ditto on everything. You guys all nailed it.

However, I wonder how many of you were fans in the late 80s and 90s when even a discussion regarding the playoffs were non-existent, and when our team (and coach) totally quit playing with several games to go in the season, instead of fighting back and going 7-2 with a second team QB.

Yes, I am one to get really down on Whiz and everything said in this thread. But still, we are only a QB and a few good OLmen away. If only our coach and front office could get that through their head.


PS. Did we really spend a high first round pick on another..... Oh well.


Thats the difference between the Niners and Cardinals right now.

They sucked for years then they invested three first round picks

on Staley Iupati and the Rutgers youngster. Then they invested a first

rounder on a stud pass rusher (Aldon Smith.) and Bam suddenly they

are in the NFC Championship game
 

THESMEL

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say nope to dope

The difference between the Niners and the The rest of the NFC right now is Harbaugh. NOW the talking heads are saying they are the most talented team in the NFL- NO they AINT!


took what looked to be crap to the NFCC game- with ball control run first offense - low risk - heavy handed defense. And quit stepping on their own richards- and beating themselves.

Like I've been screaming for freaking years and getting flamed for! THAT IS WHAT WHIZ WAS SUPPOSE TO BRING TO THE TABLE! STD ------SMART - TOUGH- DICIPLINED- FOOTBALL.

But no we got to Bench our HOF RB, Start a 5th round rookie-and pass like our hair is on fire. give are Starting RB 143 carries a season for 2 years! ( What 7. something runs a game :mulli:
Now Every QB wants to throw it every down- Kurt said it outloud, And did - we colllapsed in the 2nd half of 2008 after making the playoffs in the first half Running the darn ball with Edge! Reinserted him in the last game for the playoff run! Back to 10 rushes in the SB for a close loss.

I'm sorry no good coach runs it 10 times in a SB, or 10 times in the 2009 NFC divisional loss to the Saints- The only chance of it is when you fall back by 4 scores to start the game- ( which we have - by passing like our hair was on fire- just like 3 iNT's one for a pick 6 this preseason game) We were 3 scores ahead in the first 1/4 against Green Bays #1 rush defense in the 09 playoffss! FEEDING THE BEAN- 14 carries for 90+ setting up play action- then Mike Adams came in at CB and pass rusher.

We ran it 30 times and passed 19 against the Raiders- We are the top run team in this preseason using 4th + 5th string bubble RB's.

What the hell is Mike Adams still doing at CB? AHHGGGHHHGGG







Thats the difference between the Niners and Cardinals right now.

They sucked for years then they invested three first round picks

on Staley Iupati and the Rutgers youngster. Then they invested a first

rounder on a stud pass rusher (Aldon Smith.) and Bam suddenly they

are in the NFC Championship game
 
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AzStevenCal

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Over reaction.

As Joeshmo has posted, changes were made in the FO and scouting department recently.

I don't think anyone in the Cards organization believes Mediocrity is acceptable.

If you have a brain tumor you don't remove the entire brain.....right.

+1.

Steve
 

WildBB

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3. The offensive line. If we have to fire Whiz, to fire Grimm then so be it. At no time while Whiz and Grimm have been in charge has our offensive line been of NFL quality. That is atrocious, and it has been atrocious. Levi Brown is the best acquisition by Whiz and Grimm while in AZ. Let that sink it. That opportunities have been out there to improve the line. If you look through the last few years, there have been players that could have been drafted or brought in over the last few year to help this offensive line. Instead we bring in the Michael Floyd's of the world. While I wanted another big WR on the roster, it didn't have to be a 1st round pick, and instead of having some promise on the OL we have a 4th WR for this year the could just as easily been LaRon Byrd. Great job Whiz! You got the cart pulling the horse.

It would seem so. But if they hadn't made the trade for Kolb which is all hindsight we could have also had more options.

In hindsight, with what I know now, I would have taken the LT Reiff 1st overall. Maybe even M. Ingram or DeCastro, but the falloff after Floyd and Wright at receiver was also pretty great. Mayock swears by Floyd and he knows what he's talking about. It's gonna take time. Something we as fans are not great at hearing.

Not having that 2nd cost us, but many also had Massie going that high entering the draft. He still could be a solid RT.
 

conraddobler

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He's made enough awful calls that I'd of fired him last year.

Anderson instead of Matt?

Really?

Pittsburg rejects a plenty?

Well I'd of forgiven him Anderson until Kolb came along, now I'm just freaking PO'd at him perpetually.

I'd fire everyone who thought Kolb was a good idea, heck I'd fire people for showing up to work in his jersey.
 
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RugbyMuffin

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Over reaction.

As Joeshmo has posted, changes were made in the FO and scouting department recently.

I don't think anyone in the Cards organization believes Mediocrity is acceptable.

If you have a brain tumor you don't remove the entire brain.....right.

Let's just hope the changes where like Ray Horton to our defense, and not Russ Grimm to our offensive line
 

Cardiac

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Let's just hope the changes where like Ray Horton to our defense, and not Russ Grimm to our offensive line

I'm with you on that.

Setting the QB issue aside (for just a second) I think we see the Cards FO making more and more correct choices and fewer mistakes.
 

cardpa

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These threads were running rampant last year when we went 1-6.


Not so much when we finished 7-2.



Dont be so fickle. Bill Belechik would struggle with Skelton and Kolb as his QB options, not to mention the worst starting Oline in the NFL. Hes a good coach who has a horrible team right now.

If Bill Belichek was the coach he would not have made the decisions Whiz made and this team would be better than it is now.
 

AzStevenCal

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If Bill Belichek was the coach he would not have made the decisions Whiz made and this team would be better than it is now.

Maybe but he also works for a better organization and that shouldn't be ignored when gauging Whiz's performance. Also, there is a lot of territory between "he should be fired" and "he's not as good as a guy that most consider to be one of the all-time greatest coaches in the NFL".

Steve
 
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RugbyMuffin

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Fitz apparently wanted Floyd as well. Perhaps a pattern is starting to develop. :D

Agreed.

The scouts have to stop taking bribes from Fitzgerald, and Fitzgerald has to stop getting scouting advise from Andy Reid.
 

NJCardFan

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Seriously. For our own sanity, Whiz should be feeling the heat.

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Seriously, there isn't one point I would disagree with you on. Fact is, Whiz got very lucky when we got hot in the playoffs in 2008. Had we got knocked out by Atlanta in the WC round, we wouldn't have as many Whiz worshipers as we have here now. It's like Phillies fans thinking Charlie Manuel is a genius manager when IMO the team wins in spite of him and not because of him. Same with Whiz. Had we gone with Leinart for the entire 2008 season and had Warner not drank from the fountain of youth, you'd see a much different attitude toward Whiz here. You also make a great point about the offensive line. Aside from drafting Brown, Whiz has basically ignored the line for his entire tenure aside from bringing in aging Steelers or some other past their prime offensive lineman.

That brings up another point, he is waaayyy to loyal to his old Steelers buddies to actually go get players who can actually help this team. Seems like 90% of the free agents he even talks to are Steelers castoffs. He overpays for Bryant McFadden who was such a stiff that he made DRC look like the 2nd coming of Ronnie Lott. I also hold Whiz responsible for the QB problems we're having. Is Kolb the answer? I really don't know but creating a QB controversy every stinking year certainly isn't. I don't know about you but I'd be real tentative if I had to constantly look over my shoulder which is what Kolb is doing. A good head coach has to have confidence in his QB. Want a great example? Alex Smith. For years he plays for a team that kept shuffling him and Shawn Hill in and out then Hill is gone and Harbaugh gives Smith the confidence to get the job done and what happens? 13-3 and were 3 points from the Super Bowl and don't say it was all the defense. SF had the 11th ranked offense in points scored and considering they were 24th the previous season, I'd sat that's quite a jump. Anyhoo, my point is, Whiz needs to pick a QB and ride with him.
 

NJCardFan

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These threads were running rampant last year when we went 1-6.


Not so much when we finished 7-2.



Dont be so fickle. Bill Belechik would struggle with Skelton and Kolb as his QB options, not to mention the worst starting Oline in the NFL. Hes a good coach who has a horrible team right now.

How did Belechick do with Matt Cassel?
 

D-Dogg

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I think last year he should get a A for going 8/8 with the QB situation.

He put us in the QB situation.

His guys:

St. Pierre
Max Hall
John Skelton
Derek Anderson
Kevin Kolb
Ryan Lindley

These are Whis picks. Guys he wanted and signed off on.

No, he should not be on the hot seat, but he should be slapped with a fish for his atrocious handling of the most important position on the field.
 

kerouac9

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Seriously, there isn't one point I would disagree with you on. Fact is, Whiz got very lucky when we got hot in the playoffs in 2008. Had we got knocked out by Atlanta in the WC round, we wouldn't have as many Whiz worshipers as we have here now. It's like Phillies fans thinking Charlie Manuel is a genius manager when IMO the team wins in spite of him and not because of him. Same with Whiz. Had we gone with Leinart for the entire 2008 season and had Warner not drank from the fountain of youth, you'd see a much different attitude toward Whiz here. You also make a great point about the offensive line. Aside from drafting Brown, Whiz has basically ignored the line for his entire tenure aside from bringing in aging Steelers or some other past their prime offensive lineman.

That brings up another point, he is waaayyy to loyal to his old Steelers buddies to actually go get players who can actually help this team. Seems like 90% of the free agents he even talks to are Steelers castoffs. He overpays for Bryant McFadden who was such a stiff that he made DRC look like the 2nd coming of Ronnie Lott. I also hold Whiz responsible for the QB problems we're having. Is Kolb the answer? I really don't know but creating a QB controversy every stinking year certainly isn't. I don't know about you but I'd be real tentative if I had to constantly look over my shoulder which is what Kolb is doing. A good head coach has to have confidence in his QB. Want a great example? Alex Smith. For years he plays for a team that kept shuffling him and Shawn Hill in and out then Hill is gone and Harbaugh gives Smith the confidence to get the job done and what happens? 13-3 and were 3 points from the Super Bowl and don't say it was all the defense. SF had the 11th ranked offense in points scored and considering they were 24th the previous season, I'd sat that's quite a jump. Anyhoo, my point is, Whiz needs to pick a QB and ride with him.

I don't believe this at all. Whis took us to back-to-back NFC West Championships. A first-round exit wouldn't take down the banner(s) hanging in the stadium. Tony Dugy coached the Tampa Bay Bucs for six seasons (it's difficult to believe that was all--he coached Indy for seven) and went to the playoffs four times with them.

I don't think it's completely fair to hang every FA acquisition on Whis. The pro personnel guys should be bringing Whis a dossier on these guys, and maybe Whis has the final okay on them. But a group of people have to say "yes" before Whis gets that say so.

I do hold Whis responsible for not only the quarterbacks being terrible from a talent perspective (although there's some blame to go around there, as well), but also because they've all gotten progressively worse (except Skelton) the more coaching and contact they've received from this staff.

People are being held responsible--the QB coach was fired, Grimm was demoted (kind of), lots of personnel department turnover--I just don't believe that you can put a coach whose team is clearly playing for him and who has gone 7-2 his last 9 games on the hot seat.
 

AzStevenCal

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I don't believe this at all. Whis took us to back-to-back NFC West Championships. A first-round exit wouldn't take down the banner(s) hanging in the stadium. Tony Dugy coached the Tampa Bay Bucs for six seasons (it's difficult to believe that was all--he coached Indy for seven) and went to the playoffs four times with them.

I don't think it's completely fair to hang every FA acquisition on Whis. The pro personnel guys should be bringing Whis a dossier on these guys, and maybe Whis has the final okay on them. But a group of people have to say "yes" before Whis gets that say so.

I do hold Whis responsible for not only the quarterbacks being terrible from a talent perspective (although there's some blame to go around there, as well), but also because they've all gotten progressively worse (except Skelton) the more coaching and contact they've received from this staff.

People are being held responsible--the QB coach was fired, Grimm was demoted (kind of), lots of personnel department turnover--I just don't believe that you can put a coach whose team is clearly playing for him and who has gone 7-2 his last 9 games on the hot seat.

Nice post.

Steve
 
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