Will Pace and Johnson be in on time?

[SECTION 11]

July 25th.

Not the 26th, or the 27th, or the 30th, or August 1st, or September 1st.

If these guys aren't signed and on the bus on July 25th, then Graves needs to take his show on the road, and the Cardinals need to get somebody in here who can get this ONE job done.

I don't care what Minnesota did to the slotting, or what happens at 16 and 19. Or anything else for that matter.

This offseason is going to be a disappointment if Graves does not get this done. It's all in his hands at this point. The last three guys are his. No excuses.

 

[so far away]

I think this is the year that we finally turn the corner on all this crap.

 

[AZ1766]

Section..... I pick the first and the last choice....

 

[mdamien13]

I think they'll be in with room to spare. Graves is on a mission.

 

[AZ1766]

Not really I think they both will be in.... seems like a lot of positive energy running around over there.....I hope it carries over to the agents and front office and things are all happy in happy land!

 

[SECTION 11]

Originally posted by AZ1766
Section..... I pick the first and the last choice....

That's exactly what I voted for! A wise choice my man.

 

[Lex]

I think they will be in on time.

I think the deal was, we'll go ahead and let Rod sign these picks on time, as long as we end up 12 million under the salary cap. Not a bad trade off eh?

Sorry, I'm still a little pizzd off about draft day.

 

[Dback Jon]

Originally posted by AZ1766
Section..... I pick the first and the last choice....

Ditto

 

[Russ Smith]

I voted yes because we traded down far enough that we're probably out of "two tiered bonus and voidable" territory. The teams around us won't all be giving them out so we won't be caught when our picks demand the same thing.

It'd be nice to have them in camp. Johnson would be well served he can play a lot, possibly start from day 1, but not if he misses time over a contract. Pace I think is a lock to start, he just about has to be.

 

[Skkorpion]

I hate to burst your bubble guys but this is the year of the holdout in the NFL.

I have heard Rod Graves say that the Cardinals have certain things they must do with contracts and that will not change.

Last year, MN and AZ held the line and beat the agents. This year, with a stagnant salary cap and a bunch of teams finally crawling out of salary cap hell, many more owners and GMS are expected to force holdouts.

If I'm not mistaken, both the 17th and 18th pick got bells and whistles last year, including a voidable fith year. Someone check please. I don't have the time.

Right now, my guess is that 7 to 10 first round picks will be holdouts, including both Cards picks. Agent Pat Dye in particular likes to hold players out as a negotiating tool.

Go ahead and misplace your ire by blaming Rod Graves for this too but he can't give bells and whistles. At least, I don't think he can.

I did ask him about this but have no answer yet.

 

[WizardOfAz]

Originally posted by Skkorpion
I have heard Rod Graves say that the Cardinals have certain things they must do with contracts and that will not change.

That may be true, but I think they may be willing to give a bit more in other areas in order to get these guys in camp on time. I think that Graves and Michael Bidwill understand the importance of that this year.

 

[ajcardfan]

Originally posted by Skkorpion
I hate to burst your bubble guys but this is the year of the holdout in the NFL.

I have heard Rod Graves say that the Cardinals have certain things they must do with contracts and that will not change.

Last year, MN and AZ held the line and beat the agents. This year, with a stagnant salary cap and a bunch of teams finally crawling out of salary cap hell, many more owners and GMS are expected to force holdouts.

If I'm not mistaken, both the 17th and 18th pick got bells and whistles last year, including a voidable fith year. Someone check please. I don't have the time.

Right now, my guess is that 7 to 10 first round picks will be holdouts, including both Cards picks. Agent Pat Dye in particular likes to hold players out as a negotiating tool.

Go ahead and misplace your ire by blaming Rod Graves for this too but he can't give bells and whistles. At least, I don't think he can.

I did ask him about this but have no answer yet.

#17 last year was the Raiders pick, CB Buchanon. He got a 5 year deal worth just over 7 mil, but had escalators boosting the total worth up to 12.2mil. (I imagine some of the escalators are easy to get, some difficult.)

#18 last year was the Falcons pick, RB Duckett. He got a seven year deal worth about 9 mil. He has a voidable clause he can exercise after the fifth year of the deal.

So, you are correct Skkorp. Both deals last year increased the slot bonus by use of escalators and voidables, which we've heard so much in the past the Cardinals won't do. (Although they did give those to Davis and Wadsworth. Another concession was giving Boston and Jones 4 year deals.) We haven't heard Graves say anything different, so I see no reason to believe these negotiations will be easy.

 

[Skkorpion]

Thanks for the research, Chris. You confirmed what I had read elsewhere.

I've stayed away from this subject all spring, not wanting to stir up the whiners but we must now face it.

I actually agree with the Bidwills on this. Escalators, voidables and joke incentives are allowing the agents to shift cap money away from proven veterans to unproven rookies, something the barganing agreement was supposed to prevent.

I hope the Cards again refuse to give gimmicky contracts with backside bite on the CAP. I'd rather we overpay for proven vets.

 

[Ed B]

Originally posted by Skkorpion
Thanks for the research, Chris. You confirmed what I had read elsewhere.

I've stayed away from this subject all spring, not wanting to stir up the whiners but we must now face it.

I actually agree with the Bidwills on this. Escalators, voidables and joke incentives are allowing the agents to shift cap money away from proven veterans to unproven rookies, something the barganing agreement was supposed to prevent.

I hope the Cards again refuse to give gimmicky contracts with backside bite on the CAP. I'd rather we overpay for proven vets.

I agree with the Bidwill stance 100%. Prudent rookie deals are what allow us to be $50 bazillion under the cap like we were this offseason.

 

[MadCardDisease]

Originally posted by Skkorpion
I hope the Cards again refuse to give gimmicky contracts with backside bite on the CAP. I'd rather we overpay for proven vets.

I agree as long as they get Boldin into camp on time.

 

[SECTION 11]

Originally posted by Skkorpion
I actually agree with the Bidwills on this. Escalators, voidables and joke incentives are allowing the agents to shift cap money away from proven veterans to unproven rookies, something the barganing agreement was supposed to prevent.

This I agree with completely in terms of the contract structure.

But, in a practical sense from the Cardinals perspective, why waste a full years salary on someone not trained to do their job (Bryant)?

 

[Skkorpion]

Originally posted by SECTION 11
This I agree with completely in terms of the contract structure.

But, in a practical sense from the Cardinals perspective, why waste a full years salary on someone not trained to do their job (Bryant)?

Good point. One I can't answer.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Originally posted by Skkorpion
I hate to burst your bubble guys but this is the year of the holdout in the NFL.

I have heard Rod Graves say that the Cardinals have certain things they must do with contracts and that will not change.

Last year, MN and AZ held the line and beat the agents. This year, with a stagnant salary cap and a bunch of teams finally crawling out of salary cap hell, many more owners and GMS are expected to force holdouts.

If I'm not mistaken, both the 17th and 18th pick got bells and whistles last year, including a voidable fith year. Someone check please. I don't have the time.

Right now, my guess is that 7 to 10 first round picks will be holdouts, including both Cards picks. Agent Pat Dye in particular likes to hold players out as a negotiating tool.

Go ahead and misplace your ire by blaming Rod Graves for this too but he can't give bells and whistles. At least, I don't think he can.

I did ask him about this but have no answer yet.

Weren't bells and whistles used for Wadsworth and BIG's contracts?

Both guys will be holdouts IMO and I don't ho great it is beating the agents when your team continues to suffer because of it.

 

[ajcardfan]

Originally posted by Skkorpion
Thanks for the research, Chris. You confirmed what I had read elsewhere.

I've stayed away from this subject all spring, not wanting to stir up the whiners but we must now face it.

I actually agree with the Bidwills on this. Escalators, voidables and joke incentives are allowing the agents to shift cap money away from proven veterans to unproven rookies, something the barganing agreement was supposed to prevent.

I hope the Cards again refuse to give gimmicky contracts with backside bite on the CAP. I'd rather we overpay for proven vets.

I'd rather we'd overpay for proven vets as well. But, as we saw this year, that's not easy for us to do either. Even when we have a load of cap space.

So, I think voidable years, within reason (one, two years tops) are prudent investments for this team's top draft picks. First of all, a voidable clause does not increase the cap hit until the last year of the deal. Escalators can start to inflate the cap in year two or three like we got with the Davis deal. Escalators are not nearly as good for the team. With Duckett's deal, it means about 1 mil in cap hit carried into his sixth year if he exercises the voidable. That's not a killer cap hit. In exchange, you could get a player in camp in July instead of September, and get more out of them in their first year. Not only that, that they start off better for year 2. To me, the sixth year voidable that Bryant was asking for last year would've been worth it. That extra money would've been well spent IMO.

Hopefully, the Cardinals have already made it very clear to the agents what they are willing to do. Then, both sides can work at what's best for the player in terms of money and practice time.

 

[Renz]

Originally posted by cheesebeef
Both guys will be holdouts IMO and I don't know how great it is beating the agents when your team continues to suffer because of it.

Good point also. The first season of all of our first round picks is a "voidable year" because they never contribute their rookie year.

 

[SECTION 11]

Originally posted by Renz
The first season of all of our first round picks is a "voidable year" because they never contribute their rookie year.

That's the best post I've ever seen.
Classic.

 

[Renz]

Originally posted by ajcardfan
So, I think voidable years, within reason (one, two years tops) are prudent investments for this team's top draft picks. First of all, a voidable clause does not increase the cap hit until the last year of the deal. Escalators can start to inflate the cap in year two or three like we got with the Davis deal. Escalators are not nearly as good for the team. With Duckett's deal, it means about 1 mil in cap hit carried into his sixth year if he exercises the voidable. That's not a killer cap hit. In exchange, you could get a player in camp in July instead of September, and get more out of them in their first year. Not only that, that they start off better for year 2. To me, the sixth year voidable that Bryant was asking for last year would've been worth it. That extra money would've been well spent IMO.

My head hurts.

 

[az1965]

I say "Yes". It seems like we are on to something different org wise. We'll see.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

i'm sure my response will come as no surprise...

...no way in hell they're both in on time. in fact, neither will be in on time.

i don't see this "newness" in the organization that everyone is crowing about. i just see a new face on the same old crap. graves is already whining about being handcuffed by the cardinal way of structuring contracts. if that's not a signal that it'll be the same old - same old i don't know what is.

and my rollercoaster of optimism-pessimism-optimism-PESSIMISM continues . . . WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

 

[Stout]

Originally posted by Ed B
I agree with the Bidwill stance 100%. Prudent rookie deals are what allow us to be $50 bazillion under the cap like we were this offseason.

And it's also the reason (being $50 bazillion under the cap) we are continually struggling to be competitive.