Williams over Fitz = Common sense

[SECTION 11]

I could never hear "fast track" and "slow track" ever, ever again and be completely happy.

They should make all of them run at the combine, indoors.
You want to enter the draft? You run, lift, interview, work out at the combine.

 

[Skkorpion]

Thanks joeshmo, you beat me to it.

1. I don't think Mike Williams is faster than a now-healed Boldin but I can't prove it.

2. The difference in speed between FitzGerald and Williams is HUGE. Almost a tenth of a second between the two players' fastest times and more than a tenth on their lowest times.

3. I would not draft a possession WR in the first 10 picks, ever. Mike Williams, like Boldin, is a superior possession WR. Neither can stretch the field.

Mike's measurables were so pedestrian I'm convinced he'll drop behind Roy Williams in the real draft. He's still a great player, but not worth top 10 money.

 

[kerouac9]

I could never hear "fast track" and "slow track" ever, ever again and be completely happy.

They should make all of them run at the combine, indoors.
You want to enter the draft? You run, lift, interview, work out at the combine.

I know you hate him, but Roy Williams, in his NFL.com diary, recommended to the next round of prospects that they all run at the combine. He didn't like the way the scouts at his Pro Day made him run (something about the placement of his hands and the way his feet started out) and felt that had he been able to run Combine-style, he would have posted a 4.35 or lower.

Players should run at the Combine. All of them. If they want to look better, run again at your Pro Day.

 

[kerouac9]

3. I would not draft a possession WR in the first 10 picks, ever. Mike Williams, like Boldin, is a superior possession WR. Neither can stretch the field.

Mike's measurables were so pedestrian I'm convinced he'll drop behind Roy Williams in the real draft. He's still a great player, but not worth top 10 money.

Larry Fitzgerald is a superior possession reciever, as well. He only has adequate speed. If you want good speed, look at that kid from Texas.

I moved Mike Williams behind Roy Williams on my board as well. I think that the risks on Mike far outweigh the risks on Roy, and I think that Roy has the potential (should he stay healthy) to be a special, special reciever.

They're all top 15 picks, though.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Ouchie-Z-Clown,

Firstly.....Mike Williams IS NOT 3" taller than Fitzgerald.....he's only a little over an inch and a half taller.
Secondly....they are both within five lbs of each other.

So no matter how you slice it, on the basis of the statistically difference between the two, you might as well call it a wash. Time to move on to the other considerations....like a) which of the two is more likely to be "fearless" both as a pass cathcher as well as a pass blocker.......answer, Fitzgerald b) who accomplished more with less in terms of offensive support......answer, Fitzgerald c) of the two, who is likely more NFL ready.......answer, Fitzgerald.

The bottom line is that given what Green wants to install, Fitzgerald is our answer between the all the WR's. Don't forget, Bryant Johnson ran his 40 in 4.39 and 4.42.........it is he who will be our deep threat receiver........and watch what he does this year......he'll have people eating "crow" very quickly into the season.

okay, if i'm not mistaken weren't the measurements as follows:

fitz - 6'2 and 220lbs
mw - 6'4 1/2 and 230lbs

your "a" is speculative
your "b" can be countered with a statement such as - mw had to compete with so many other weapons for the ball that his numbers are MORE impressive than fitz's 'cuz pitt HAD to throw to fitz all the time. and, moreover, both were constantly doubleteamed.
and your "c" is pure 100% biased conjecture.

mind you, through this whole debate i'm playing devil's advocate 'cuz i don't really prefer one over the other, i just think it's looney to say fitz is head and shoulders better than mw, or the "common sense" selection.

and i hope to get a healthy heaping of crow regarding bj.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I could never hear "fast track" and "slow track" ever, ever again and be completely happy.

They should make all of them run at the combine, indoors.
You want to enter the draft? You run, lift, interview, work out at the combine.

a-friggin'-men!

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

okay, if i'm not mistaken weren't the measurements as follows:

fitz - 6'2 and 220lbs
mw - 6'4 1/2 and 230lbs

your "a" is speculative
your "b" can be countered with a statement such as - mw had to compete with so many other weapons for the ball that his numbers are MORE impressive than fitz's 'cuz pitt HAD to throw to fitz all the time. and, moreover, both were constantly doubleteamed.
and your "c" is pure 100% biased conjecture.

mind you, through this whole debate i'm playing devil's advocate 'cuz i don't really prefer one over the other, i just think it's looney to say fitz is head and shoulders better than mw, or the "common sense" selection.

and i hope to get a healthy heaping of crow regarding bj.

taking a page from section 11's book on posting etiquette, i'll quote myself.

seems i jumped the gun on the measurements before reading y'all's posts. thanks for clearing up the discrepancies. regardless, i think the two are neck in neck, but, i think all this debate is basically in vain 'cuz dg ain't drafting mw with the 3rd pick. he'll either get fitz, surprise us all with someone else (like taylor or winslow) or trade down (at which point he very well may select mw).

 

[Russ Smith]

Speed - M.Williams(4.56 with the wind and 4.62 against the wind), Fitz(ran his 40s in 4.51 and 4.47). Both official times from there prodays from www.nfl.com. More of a difference then you posted.



One guy is 1 1/2 inch taller not 2-3 inches, one guy is a better leaper by 2 inches, one guy is stronger but its Fitz not M.Williams(fitz bench 20, williams bench 18), and both are 20 years old right now. Do you really think a difference of months when it comes to age is a big difference.



IMO this is very debatable. I would really like to see what Boldin runs now. Knowing that his combine #s were skewed becuase of his knee injury and lack of workout time prior to the combine. I would be willing to bet that Boldin Today would run faster then, 4.56 with the wind and 4.62 against the wind.

Sorry I was referring to the statement by scouts that the surface Fitz ran is notoriously fast and as such scouts would consider his 40 times "equal to between 4.57 and 4.61", which came out after the Pitt pro day. Williams ran on a fast track, but not one considered as fast. Pitt did their pro day in "an older facility the team abandoned some years ago. Its surface is the old-fashioned, cement-hard AstroTurf, and the next time Fitzgerald complains about turf burns on his elbows from having played on the old stuff in Indianapolis or Minnesota, he should remember what the old stuff put in his pocket yesterday." In other words they have a new facility but the surface is soft and they knew times would be slower, so they used the old facility instead, smart move.

Mike ran a virtually identical short shuttle time which frankly I consider a more telling drill for a WR.

Strength, I'm not a big believer on the 225 pound lift, I don't think it translates well into the game of football. When it comes to using strength to get an opening or hold a DB off, I'm convinced MW is stronger than Fitz, doesn't mean I think Larry is weak, just I think MW is stronger. But yes on 225 pounds lifts, LF wins. Maybe that's a Mike Mamula bias coming into play?

I concede on Quan, I have no idea what he runs now, I'm sure he's faster than 4.7 now.

The one WR who really hurt himself in the running stuff was Reggie Williams who got into the high 4.5's to 4.6 running on a fast track himself apparently.

The only nitpick I have with your post is the use of the word "official" there's no such thing with 40 times for NFL draft picks. When LF ran his first 40 one scout said he looked at 7 stopwatches, and all 7 had different times, and he said the one reported as "official" was the fastest on both runs. If I had to bet in a race I would bet on LF, but not because of official 40 times which I basically discount.

Younger was a poor choice of words, I meant in terms of development of football skills. One grew up in camp with the Vikings working with Moss and Carter and Dennis Green, the other grew up playing basketball and resisting everyone who wanted him to convert to a TE. When people talk about polish there's no question LF has more, but my opinion is MW has more room to improve, and is just as good if not better than LF right now.

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

Williams ran on a fast track, but not one considered as fast. .

Are you kidding me on this?

This is what this arguement has boiled down to?

The real trend here is that all the West coast pro Pac 10 fans think MW is better, and all us fans who watch all college football, (not just Pac-10) know they arent!

 

[Russ Smith]

Are you kidding me on this?

This is what this arguement has boiled down to?

The real trend here is that all the West coast pro Pac 10 fans think MW is better, and all us fans who watch all college football, (not just Pac-10) know they arent!

Nope, dead serious. After LF ran scouts said because of the surface, most would add .08 to a tenth of a second to his times to account for it. This is why Pitt worked out in their old facility and not the new one, they knew guys would be faster in the old one. So 4.47 is recorded as 4.55 to 4.57. Again, I am not that big on 40's and wish all would run at the combine on the same surface to avoid this nonsense, but when guys go all over the place to do it, you have to take that into account with the times. There was a school one year who had a REALLY fast track for their 40's so fast that scouts got curious and measured and sure enough, it wasn't really 40 yards!


I think Fitz is faster mind you, just not by much.

Again I think Fitz is going to be really good, if we pick him, great, I just think MW has a higher ceiling and is a complete freak who will terrorize defenses for years. I think we'll take LF if he's there, if he's not we'll try to move down and take MW at 7, if we do, I'll be just as happy as if we get Fitz at 3. Personally I rate the WR's as MW, Roy Williams, Fitz, but that's largely because I think Fitz and Boldin are really similar and that MW and RW offer us something different.

 

[joeshmo]

Sorry I was referring to the statement by scouts that the surface Fitz ran is notoriously fast and as such scouts would consider his 40 times "equal to between 4.57 and 4.61", which came out after the Pitt pro day. Williams ran on a fast track, but not one considered as fast.

i think you are being a little biased here. If you want to add time to Fitz 40 times then you got to add time to M.Williams time since he wore cleats on a ruber track, of which the scouts didnt like. So Fitz still comes out faster.

Mike ran a virtually identical short shuttle time which frankly I consider a more telling drill for a WR.

IMO the 3 cone is a much more telling drill when it comes to WR becuase it shows how well they cut and how well precise they can run routes. but just like the shuttle time there wasnt difference between the 2.

Strength, I'm not a big believer on the 225 pound lift, I don't think it translates well into the game of football. When it comes to using strength to get an opening or hold a DB off, I'm convinced MW is stronger than Fitz, doesn't mean I think Larry is weak, just I think MW is stronger. But yes on 225 pounds lifts, LF wins. Maybe that's a Mike Mamula bias coming into play?

Have you seen the 2 players play in more then 1 game. Becuase I think if you have you would give the edge to Fitz on pure strength. M.Williams got his push offs by pushing his then 240 lb frame around not his strength. Williams used his body when fighting for balls(I am not saying it is a bad thing) while if you watch Fitz he used his arms and hands. Just my observations from watching the 2 play. I myself would have to put themselves even when it comes to strength.

The only nitpick I have with your post is the use of the word "official" there's no such thing with 40 times for NFL draft picks. When LF ran his first 40 one scout said he looked at 7 stopwatches, and all 7 had different times, and he said the one reported as "official" was the fastest on both runs. If I had to bet in a race I would bet on LF, but not because of official 40 times which I basically discount.

Well I think this is all relative becuase I am sure that all of the draft prospects get the fastest clocked time as well, Which is why I think that the M.Williams time was also the fastest recorded time as well.

Younger was a poor choice of words, I meant in terms of development of football skills. One grew up in camp with the Vikings working with Moss and Carter and Dennis Green, the other grew up playing basketball and resisting everyone who wanted him to convert to a TE. When people talk about polish there's no question LF has more, but my opinion is MW has more room to improve, and is just as good if not better than LF right now.

Now this is a arguement about the 2 that I can get behind. IMO Fitz is the better college more complete player right now but M.Williams isnt far behind at all, but Fitz already knows alot of the skills and small things a WR should now while watching M.Williams play he does not. So do you take the gamble that M.Williams will make that jump to Fitz level of polish making him a far better WR IMO.

So the real question is should we make the gamble that M.Williams learns and excells at the same skill sets and intangibles that Fitz knows right now so he reaches his full potential which is higher then Fitz is, or do we go with the player who is already the complete package in Fitz?

I also want to know if anyone has any articles or insight that says anything about M.Williams head on his shoulders. Becuase I see so much about Fitz having a great head on his shoulders but nothing about M.Williams(I guess no news is good news in this area). I think this is the area that makes me like Fitz more then M.Williams right now.

I guess just like you I will happy with either WR as well.

 

[joeshmo]

taking a page from section 11's book on posting etiquette, i'll quote myself.

seems i jumped the gun on the measurements before reading y'all's posts. thanks for clearing up the discrepancies. regardless, i think the two are neck in neck, but, i think all this debate is basically in vain 'cuz dg ain't drafting mw with the 3rd pick. he'll either get fitz, surprise us all with someone else (like taylor or winslow) or trade down (at which point he very well may select mw).

I think you are correct but it is still fun to have a good old fashion no mud slinging debate.

 

[D-Dogg]

M Williams might end up being a heck of a TE though.

That's what all the Florida schools mistakingly said too. Then Mike rewrote the 4 year records at USC in two seasons.

Funny that.

 

[CaptTurbo]

I thought you never watch college sports. How would you know who's better?

I think they're both going to be very good, but whichever Denny thinks fits our offense the best is who we should go with.

I watched Williams play in 2 games and posted on here once, and I hope to have some time to find it. It was title, "hey lets draft this williams guy" and some poster, who Im dying to find out who it was said I was a moron because he was a sophmore and wouldnt be in the draft.

Im gonna use that post as my quote once I get it lol

 

[ajcardfan]

I watched Williams play in 2 games and posted on here once, and I hope to have some time to find it. It was title, "hey lets draft this williams guy" and some poster, who Im dying to find out who it was said I was a moron because he was a sophmore and wouldnt be in the draft.

Im gonna use that post as my quote once I get it lol

You said we should maybe draft him in the third or fourth round. THAT'S what I thought was funny. And, it's not like you predicted sophomores were going to be entered into the draft this year.

 

[ajcardfan]

I watched Williams play in 2 games and posted on here once, and I hope to have some time to find it. It was title, "hey lets draft this williams guy" and some poster, who Im dying to find out who it was said I was a moron because he was a sophmore and wouldnt be in the draft.

Im gonna use that post as my quote once I get it lol

No one called you a moron.

http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/vb/showthread.php?t=22289&page=1&pp=15

 

[vikesfan]

i think you are being a little biased here. If you want to add time to Fitz 40 times then you got to add time to M.Williams time since he wore cleats on a ruber track, of which the scouts didnt like. So Fitz still comes out faster.



IMO the 3 cone is a much more telling drill when it comes to WR becuase it shows how well they cut and how well precise they can run routes. but just like the shuttle time there wasnt difference between the 2.



Have you seen the 2 players play in more then 1 game. Becuase I think if you have you would give the edge to Fitz on pure strength. M.Williams got his push offs by pushing his then 240 lb frame around not his strength. Williams used his body when fighting for balls(I am not saying it is a bad thing) while if you watch Fitz he used his arms and hands. Just my observations from watching the 2 play. I myself would have to put themselves even when it comes to strength.



Well I think this is all relative becuase I am sure that all of the draft prospects get the fastest clocked time as well, Which is why I think that the M.Williams time was also the fastest recorded time as well.



Now this is a arguement about the 2 that I can get behind. IMO Fitz is the better college more complete player right now but M.Williams isnt far behind at all, but Fitz already knows alot of the skills and small things a WR should now while watching M.Williams play he does not. So do you take the gamble that M.Williams will make that jump to Fitz level of polish making him a far better WR IMO.

So the real question is should we make the gamble that M.Williams learns and excells at the same skill sets and intangibles that Fitz knows right now so he reaches his full potential which is higher then Fitz is, or do we go with the player who is already the complete package in Fitz?

I also want to know if anyone has any articles or insight that says anything about M.Williams head on his shoulders. Becuase I see so much about Fitz having a great head on his shoulders but nothing about M.Williams(I guess no news is good news in this area). I think this is the area that makes me like Fitz more then M.Williams right now.

I guess just like you I will happy with either WR as well.

Great logic post.

 

[john h]

Come on guys M. William is what 6'5????????? For god's sake its a no brainer. That speed and size = unstoppable for almost 95% of the corners in the league.

PLEASE draft M Williams over Fitz.

I was reading a specail draft editions of the top players and they have Williams and Fitz very close with each having something the other does not have. If we are going to take a receiver to me one is as good as the other. The article did mention Williams might make an impact quicker but in the long run Fitz may be better. Just hope we have a QB who can get the ball to them or it does not matter who is drafted?