Winning in 2017 - Re-tool, not rebuild

vince56

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How many of us remember the Dave McGinnis years? I remember routinely lose by 3-4 TDs a game, and just wishing we would field a competitive team. Right now, our team has been in almost every game this year, you don't blow this up, you fix the deficiencies and reload. We have 4 things we all know have stopped us this year:

1) Everything / everyone on special teams. We all know everything is wrong here, from Bobby Wagner repeatedly jumping over our entire line, to a kicker who can't kick and multiple punters who can't punt. If ST was even just competent this year, we would be playing for the NFC West in Seattle this week.
2) A lack of a consistent receiving threat outside of Fitz/Johnson. Palmer looks a lot better when receivers are open.
3) DBs that can't get aligned and lose track of the mental game. When the WR looks back for the ball, you should too. This is taught at the PW level, no excuse for it from Bethel, Cooper, and Williams.
4) Injuries along the O-Line. Palmer looks a lot better when not running for his life and getting crushed every other play.

Here's how I would attack it, in order of importance:

Special Teams Overhaul: Wile needs to show what he can do the next 2 weeks. His play against the Saints was uninspiring, but he did boom a couple amazing punts against us as a Falcon. Obviously replace the kicker, longsnapper, and draft a late round pick or two to replace Bethel, whom I expect we cut. We're probably seeing a coaching change here, whether BA likes it or not.

Sign a Free-Agent #2 WR: Forget the draft for WRs, we've done nothing with the draft recently, BA doesn't even use rookies, and I feel we can not just compete but contend in 2017 if we can add a solid #2 WR through free agency. This year is not too shabby for WRs, but there are definite blemishes. I personally would LOVE to see us land Alshon Jeffrey from the Bears. His big blemish is the 4 game suspension for PEDs, but if that is behind him and Bidwill is willing to take the risk on him, he's a HUGE and explosive target that could open up the offense immeasurably, much the same way it was when Floyd was performing last year. Alshon is 26 and can dominate games. He will come at a cost, but the PED scandal should drop his cap number a bit, and he will not be a Bear next year. Other options for WRs at or under 30 would be Kenny Britt, Pierre Garcon, and DeSean Jackson, and it wouldn't be too bad to see us remove Britt from a rival. Bottom line, we have to sign one of these guys and other than our own free agents, this should be the next most-vital part of the plan. Alshon and DeSean will sign day 1 of free agency, hopefully Keim acts fast.

Shore up the Defense as best you can: You have to resign your free agents if at all possible, and for the defense, I think it goes a long way if we can somehow keep Campbell, Jones, and Jefferson together. Might be a pipe dream though. IMO TJ is the up-and-coming Rashad Johnson "QB of the Defense" and needs a few more years' experience. Swearinger is a fun guy to watch and should be easy to re-sign, but if we lose him I'm honestly not concerned. I still think you draft CBs as most FA CBs are junk, but if we begin shedding players like Campbell and Jones to other teams, maybe we make a big run at Trumaine Johnson from the Rams. I still doubt he will really be available, the dude has 7 INTs this year, but man would that be so much fun to watch across from Patrick Peterson. No Fly Zone 2.0, even without a pass rush.

Fix the Center and RG position: Evan Mathis was good before he got injured, not sure if we bring him back. Either way we need to get a bit more solid along the middle of the offensive line. Joe Hawley, C, from Tampa will be available. If we have the cap room, I'd love to see him brought in. Or you know we could actually develop the Center we drafted last year. I think we're good at Tackle, and I really disliked DJ at RT. He's been very very good at LT IMO and I think you make the risky choice and move Veldheer to RT.


Resign our FAs: So much has been made of our free agents list being so long, but truly there are 4 we have to go hard after to try to keep:

Calais Campbell
Chandler Jones
Jermaine Gresham
Tony Jefferson

Make a moderate attempt to resign:

Frostee Rucker
D.J. Swearinger
Kevin Minter (I'd love to keep him as a backup and get better at ILB, but you can't fix every position in 1 year)
Alex Okafor (honestly we know he's gone, he will start for another team)
Sio Moore

Let walk:

Evan Mathis (still torn on this one)
Chris Johnson (Kerwyn Williams is better at this point)
Mike Jenkins
A.Q. Shipley
Jeremy Ross
Earl Watford (utility guy, but he's mediocre at every position)
Stepfan Taylor (Kerwyn Williams is better)
Andre Ellington (Williams over Ellington too, Williams will take a hit and is more explosive)
Marcus Cooper
 

Garthshort

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I know many fans do not like AQ Shipley, but I have read that rating services think that he's had a VG year. I don't have the OL knowledge to make that call, but will point out that our RB, DJ has had a great year and that the OL must have played a part.
 

RugbyMuffin

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Deone's staying put. A healthy Tyrann Mathieu returns to SS in 2017.

I 100% agree that is what will happen............tho I am with Reddog in wanting to put Deone back at SS.

Mathieu was playing FS at the beginning of this year, but you are right, in the base sets where is playing "nickel back" it is more like a SS in the box.

I guess my point is that it would be nice to have a little more beef in base packages against the run by putting Mathieu at FS and Bucanon at SS....... I dunno, the Cardinals have two "hybrid players" which make it tough to put them in basic football roles.
 

oaken1

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I 100% agree that is what will happen............tho I am with Reddog in wanting to put Deone back at SS.

Mathieu was playing FS at the beginning of this year, but you are right, in the base sets where is playing "nickel back" it is more like a SS in the box.

I guess my point is that it would be nice to have a little more beef in base packages against the run by putting Mathieu at FS and Bucanon at SS....... I dunno, the Cardinals have two "hybrid players" which make it tough to put them in basic football roles.

the main issue in my opinion is that Deone has never played safety in the NFL....don't see how anyone can expect him to change now and be effective at the safety position.
 

RugbyMuffin

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the main issue in my opinion is that Deone has never played safety in the NFL....don't see how anyone can expect him to change now and be effective at the safety position.

Because he played it for the first half of his football career, I personally do not see it as a big transition.

It would be in Bucanon's best interest too, because right now he is setup to be paid like a marginal ILBer for his next contract. Bucanon was not a good ILBer this year, teams exposed his size.

Just look at the Bills game, he was dominated. Not just beat, not just taken out of the game, but dominated. The Bills LITERALLY ran right at him because he was on his back most of the game.

Again, the move is not going to happen, but I think it should, I believe the transition would work, and that Bucanon would be a better player from the strong safety position.

At least that is my reasoning behind it.
 
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az jam

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I do agree with the premise that the Cards need to re-tool not rebuild for 2017. However they need to draft and develop a replacement for Palmer. Additionally, they need to rebuild the Special Teams. A new coach, kicker, punter and Kickoff/Punt returner are all needed. The good news is that this can be done cheaply with both free agent signings and low round daft picks.(or undrafted players (i.e punter )).
 

Stout

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I think we can try to re-tool, but I don't want us to do it at the expense of the future. That is, if it means mortgaging the future for a desperate attempt at a 1-year re-tool, I won't be for it.
 

cardpa

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the main issue in my opinion is that Deone has never played safety in the NFL....don't see how anyone can expect him to change now and be effective at the safety position.

To me that would give the team 3 SS in Bucannon, Jefferson, and Swearinger. They need a FS badly.
 

cardpa

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We need to remember that the offensive philosophy of Arians is a quick strike air it out offense. He wants to score often and he wants to score fast. You don't do that with a ball control offense even though this team looks more and more like one. Even if Palmer plays in 2017, I don't see the team investing much in a QBOTF because I really think Arians is just fine with having Stanton under center with his approach to the offense. I think the team will look at another grizzled veteran in 2018 FA but drafting a QB in the first round is probably not going to happen in either of the next 2 drafts. I could even see the team riding with Stanton in 2018 especially if Palmer retires. As long as Arians has substantial input to the makeup of the team I don't think he wants to be bothered with a young QB unless a strong arm one drops into their lap. They drafted Thomas on the idea he has a strong arm and can throw the ball 60 yds down field. I believe that is the number one quality Arians wants in any QB. That's why he let Barkley go, he didn't have the arm strength Arians wants in a QB. The rest just doesn't matter to Arians.

Based on Arians offense, your defense needs to be strong and deep because they will be on the field a lot of the game and it's why you need strong special teams play. You need a strong legged punter with great hang time and excellent coverage to flip a field. Arians offense is predicated on going deep as often as the opportunity presents itself. Unless I remember wrong hasn't he stated that the first option in the passing game is almost always the deep pass? I think an average series on offense to Arians is the offense scoring in 6-8 plays or punting. It must pain him to grind out first downs and time consuming drives. He has stated he doesn't care about time of possession, he just wants to score and score quickly.
 

Jetstream Green

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I 100% agree that is what will happen............tho I am with Reddog in wanting to put Deone back at SS.

Mathieu was playing FS at the beginning of this year, but you are right, in the base sets where is playing "nickel back" it is more like a SS in the box.

I guess my point is that it would be nice to have a little more beef in base packages against the run by putting Mathieu at FS and Bucanon at SS....... I dunno, the Cardinals have two "hybrid players" which make it tough to put them in basic football roles.

Mathieu will be a wasted big contract if we put him at FS. At best he will be solid which will then not earn the money we payed for him. The guy is a instinctive player which feeds off a play in motion and calling the secondary protections is not his strength... he is a lethal X factor who is not exactly a responsible play caller whose instincts must be allowed to freelance and attack the line of scrimmage in my opinion
 

juza76

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To me that would give the team 3 SS in Bucannon, Jefferson, and Swearinger. They need a FS badly.
None of them really capable in coverage
I will resign jefferson
Trade bucannon, a 43 team could be interested
Extend campbell and making a reasonable deal with chandler Jones
Try to get something from nkemdiche in order to replace rucker
Resign mauro too
Draft the Stud lb from alabama in round 1
Mahomes3 in round 2
Cb in round3
I would like to sign the cb who got tagged last year by rams
In offense we need to sign a proven guard, like a 3 year deal 12 mil
And try to sign alshon Jeffery, big receiver required to play on the outside
 

RugbyMuffin

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Re-tool ? hmm.... I am just not sure there is enough here to go for a title but if the Cardinals want to re-tool, here is my extreme unlikely to happen plan.

Re-sign the players currently on the roster:
- Stepfan Taylor, RB/FB/ST
- Jermaine Gresham, TE
- Chandler Jones, OLB
- Tony Jefferson, FS/SS
- Sio Moore, ILB (depth)
- Mike Jenkins, CB (depth, team friendly only!)
- Marcus Cooper, CB (depth, if Jenkins is too expensive, & team friendly only!)


Free Agency Signings:
- Terrelle Pryor, WR
- Larry Warford, OG
- JC Tretter, OC
- Dont'a Hightower, ILB
- Dre Kirkpatrick, CB


I think if this were to get done, I believe, it would fit under the cap, and give the Cardinals a good enough roster to contend. Problem is most of the free agents will not make it to free agency. Not to mention this would still leave holes at Free safety and mattering on where the Cardinals like to play Chandler Jones in the nickel package, without a replacement for the role Alex Okafor plays for this team currently. Finally, this relies on players like Tyrann Mathieu, John Brown, and Darren Fells to return to their level of play from the 2015 season.

Still this would sure up the offensive line, replace our big body receiver role, give the Cardinals an actual inside linebacker, and an effective CB #2 that has the length and size the Cardinals like.
 

Reign Blood

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Re-tool ? hmm.... I am just not sure there is enough here to go for a title but if the Cardinals want to re-tool, here is my extreme unlikely to happen plan.

Re-sign the players currently on the roster:
- Stepfan Taylor, RB/FB/ST
- Jermaine Gresham, TE
- Chandler Jones, OLB
- Tony Jefferson, FS/SS
- Sio Moore, ILB (depth)
- Mike Jenkins, CB (depth, team friendly only!)
- Marcus Cooper, CB (depth, if Jenkins is too expensive, & team friendly only!)


Free Agency Signings:
- Terrelle Pryor, WR
- Larry Warford, OG
- JC Tretter, OC
- Dont'a Hightower, ILB
- Dre Kirkpatrick, CB


I think if this were to get done, I believe, it would fit under the cap, and give the Cardinals a good enough roster to contend. Problem is most of the free agents will not make it to free agency. Not to mention this would still leave holes at Free safety and mattering on where the Cardinals like to play Chandler Jones in the nickel package, without a replacement for the role Alex Okafor plays for this team currently. Finally, this relies on players like Tyrann Mathieu, John Brown, and Darren Fells to return to their level of play from the 2015 season.

Still this would sure up the offensive line, replace our big body receiver role, give the Cardinals an actual inside linebacker, and an effective CB #2 that has the length and size the Cardinals like.
Good post!
 

Krangodnzr

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That is, if it means mortgaging the future for a desperate attempt at a 1-year re-tool, I won't be for it.

If the Cardinals are bad for five years, but win a Super Bowl, I'm all for it.

I think the Cardinals really need to emphasize QBOTF.

I would go for Trubisky, QB, UNC. He's not really an Arians type QB. He isn't a great deep ball thrower, but he makes good decisions in the pocket and can run a little. http://mmqb.si.com/mmqb/2016/12/21/...trubisky-north-carolina-tar-heels-quarterback

If not Trubisky, then I'm all for Ruben Foster. He brings the potential to take this defense to the next level; he can blitz, has decent size, and is probably faster than Bucannon.

I think the Cardinals should add Kenny Britt to be the number 2 receiver. He would be an upgrade and shouldn't be too expensive.

I think the Cardinals are in a dangerous position. If they keep putting off the future for the present, the darkness after the Palmer days is going to tough to deal with, but with a few fixes, this team can win 13 games again. But I worry about the post-Palmer/Fitz days.
 

football karma

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If it's re-tool:

Emphasis on the o-line and add a WR to to go with Fitz. Hope that J Brown learns to manage his condition. An O line that can protect Palmer, give DJ room, and put three WRs out will score plenty of points.

On D:

Bring back Jones, find a second CB and with HB returning to form, ought to be fine.
 

MrYeahBut

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If it's re-tool:

Emphasis on the o-line and add a WR to to go with Fitz. Hope that J Brown learns to manage his condition. An O line that can protect Palmer, give DJ room, and put three WRs out will score plenty of points.

On D:

Bring back Jones, find a second CB and with HB returning to form, ought to be fine.


This works but still would need ILB
 

DVontel

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None of them really capable in coverage
I will resign jefferson
Trade bucannon, a 43 team could be interested
Extend campbell and making a reasonable deal with chandler Jones
Try to get something from nkemdiche in order to replace rucker
Resign mauro too
Draft the Stud lb from alabama in round 1
Mahomes3 in round 2
Cb in round3
I would like to sign the cb who got tagged last year by rams
In offense we need to sign a proven guard, like a 3 year deal 12 mil
And try to sign alshon Jeffery, big receiver required to play on the outside
What Jefferson have you guys been watching the past few years? He's the primary reason why TEs haven't gone beserk on us the past few years like usual. He's definitely good in coverage.
 

RugbyMuffin

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I like those signings but
What do u think they could ask?

Well, that is the tricky part of the situation.

Hightower, Warford, Tretter, and Kirkpatrick are all on their rookie contracts. So, you could go on overthecap.com and find a comparable free agency and get an idea. Yet, even that is based on opinion.

When it comes to pure talent, I think Warford and Hightower are going to be expensive for their position, but ILBer, and RG are not big money positions. Kirkpatrick would be a good mid-level free agent, that is IF he is looked at that way when the offseason comes.

Pryor was making around 3 mil last season, and could be had for a little more than that, at least that is what I was going for.

I have some plan B guys as well that are all older veterans that would be 1 to 3 year deals at most.

If I had Madden-like control (aka video game control) over the situation those are the names I would pick up.

Realistically? Most or all of those players will resign with their team and never make it to free agency.

If I could pick one of them it would be Larry Warford, I think he would "really bring the line together". He is a natural right guard, and a powerful guy. There is a chance he will be available and that the Lions let him walk because they have Lakenlin Tomlinson (sp?) waiting in the wings to play guard.
 

juza76

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What Jefferson have you guys been watching the past few years? He's the primary reason why TEs haven't gone beserk on us the past few years like usual. He's definitely good in coverage.
I like, great tackler, put everything on the field , a perfect leader of the defense, but coverage is not his strenght cause he doesnt have the speed , so he struggle to cover fast receivers.
I just would like to pair him with a Fs with speed and coverage skills
 
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JeffGollin

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Too much has been invested in talent to merit a complete gutting of this football team.

Looking toward next year, ask yourself (a) which positions could we stand pat and (assuming an average number of injuries) still be successful and (b) which positions have to be upgraded or else we'll be dead meat?

If we stand pat at QB, we might get away with it, but face a high injury risk. If we have a decent shot at landing a QBOF that BA absolutely believes in, we ought to take that shot.

Floyd and possibly Fitz leaves us a bit too thin at WR. We're still not up to speed at TE. Status quo on the OL is very risky. We're in surprisingly decent shape at RB.

We're going to be a bit thin at ILB, but could get away with the guys we've got on the DL (assuming Calais returns), OLB and S.

That leaves the desperate need for upgrades at #2 corner and kicking /punting games (including a ST coaching upgrade).

That's not an overwhelming number of objectives (assuming that we break even on positive and negative karma) but each area in need of a fix cannot remain unaddressed if we expect to return to respectability.
 

DVontel

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I like, great tackler, put everything on the field , a perfect leader of the defense, but coverage is not his strenght cause he doesnt have the speed , so he struggle to cover fast receivers.
I just would like to pair him with a Fs with speed and coverage skills
Coverage is definitely his strength when covering TEs & RBs.

Now covering WRs? I agree when it comes to speedy ones.
 
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