With the 8th pick in the NFL Draft......
Solar7
Go Suns
I am arguing that the talent hole that we have right now is so steep in the open positions that we are talking about genuine regression for Kyler and Kliff. In a way that could hurt Kyler, get Keim fired, and put Kliff on the cusp of being fired as well. I'm not talking low-tier starters, I'm talking 2003 levels where Fred Wakefield, a converted OT, was our starting DE. That kind of bad.
I'm not sure how people can't see how dire it is. Every time I have this conversation about our draft needs or trading picks, I feel like I need to have a screenshot of the depth chart prepared for everyone. Hell, I might put together a little something. I think many posters (and not saying that about you, I just don't know), still think the Cassius Marshes, Justin Murrays, Rodney Gunters, and Zane Gonzales's of this team are actually signed and can hold some of these spots down, but we don't even have them.
I would love Okudah in any situation but the crap one we're in now. This team could stand to be less talented in 2020 than it was in 2019.
Krangodnzr
Captain of Team Conner
Wakefield was a DE who converted to tackle.
You do realize that you can sign a quality rotational DL for like 1.5 mil? The Cardinals dont have to break the bank here.
Solar7
Go Suns
Sorry, whatever, he was so bad that he got converted to another position. And still started multiple seasons for us.
Our DL is one of the sorriest in the league. We need two DEs minimum. You're talking about scraping the bottom of the barrel here.
I just watched the replay of our Super Bowl.
first, I’m shocked at all the players I forgot about and realized you will never field a team of 22 starting all pros. Sometimes you need role players or two players in one position to spell each other in different situations.
I’m sure guys like Travis Laboy, Robert Hood, Mike Adams, Arron Francisco and Jeremy Urban never struck fear into the hearts of our opponents. But they all played a role in getting to the Super Bowl.
Sometimes you have to take what you got and make it work. Fit the system to the player. So if Justin Murray is our starting RT then maybe we have to help him out at times.
a guy like Marsh was on the Seahawks roster and would have still been there had they not acquired Clowney. Sometimes the drop off from player A and B is not that much.
but yes, I don’t want to see us converting an OT to DE ever again, lol.
Krangodnzr
Captain of Team Conner
The Cardinals will probably renegotiate a contract or two and cut a veteran and free up a few million.
Darius Philon didn't cost a ton, and every year their are similar DL out there that you can get for not much coin.
Resign Gunter, Bullard and sign a guy. If available, draft Derrick Brown.
I'm more worried about ILB. There are very few good players out on the market this offseason.
Solar7
Go Suns
Travis LaBoy started for the Titans for many years and was a 2nd round pick. He's not a street free agent or undrafted rookie. Same with Rod Hood. Mike Adams played 4th/5th CB. Aaron Francisco was also tabbed as a backup - Adrian Wilson and Antrel Rolle were the starters. Urban was the 4th receiver.
So, all of the guys you mentioned aren't what I'm talking about. That team started a single rookie, DRC, who was a 1st round pick. They didn't start a single player who was undrafted that year. They didn't start a single guy who they picked up off the street after June 1st cuts or training camp ended.
Yes, knowing all of your players aren't stars is a part of the NFL. We're going to be at the point where we're not even talking about stars, we're talking about actively bad players.
Also, Cassius Marsh wasn't cut "because they acquired Clowney." He wasn't going to start and was cut at the end of training camp. He was a backup and the last guy standing. Not starting material.
What do you think of Nick Kwitkowski? Being here in Chicago I get to see him a lot. To me he is a young scrappy type ILB that took over for Trivathan when he got hurt and did a pretty damn good job.
Solar7
Go Suns
Philon got a $10m contract with $5m guaranteed, and a $4m signing bonus. $3m cap hit upon release. It's not as cheap as you think. Gunter cost nearly $2m. These things add up quickly, given how many players we need to sign.
Marsh was cut the day they acquired Clowney.
In no way am I trying to compare this roster with the 2008 team. What I am saying is just because a player isn’t a household name we just assume he’s a bum.
you said it yourself we can’t fill every hole this year. So you have to who is our “best weakest” players and roll with them.
DVontel
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Lets pass on Okudah so we can be slightly less middling everywhere instead of a particular unit being a strength.
Geezus Solar , we have to start somewhere. What do you want us to do ? Go to the XFL and sign 10 guys for minimum wage because we can’t afford 5 top tier free agents.
we have to spend the money available. I would rather sign 1 top tier and 2 second tier free agents rather than 5 third tier free agents to slightly upgrade 5 positions.
Signing a player today ( the right ones) might cost a bit more but they will fill the hole for 4 years. The going rate for a decent DE is going to be near 10 m. So are you saying we shouldn’t sign a guy like that because we have too many other holes?
Solar7
Go Suns
Marsh has started 8 games in his 6 year career, and was tabbed to be the last backup at DE in Seattle per depth charts before Clowney. It's like saying we only cut the last RB on the roster because we picked up Drake - it's not really relevant to them being good or not. He wasn't a starter.
I know you're not directly comparing the teams, I'm just saying that the guys you're pointing out are players who are only good enough to be backups. And we're not talking about backups playing as backups, we're talking about backups playing as starters if we don't make the right moves.
This mischaracterizes my argument. We have great players who should be available in that range, like Simmons, Brown, one of the OTs, whatever guy blows up your skirt, and if we have similar grades on those players, we should choose one of them. This isn't me advocating for Levi Brown over Adrian Peterson just because of need. It's about picking a different elite player that will also presumably have an incredible impact, just in a spot where we have a hole.
I never said Marsh should be our starting OLB but we may have to settle on him as a backup.
As far as Okudah if by some miracle he was there at 8, I predict we will have a couple of teams clamoring to trade down. With the right deal that would be great. Let me emphasize it would have to be a great deal.
Solar7
Go Suns
No, we should of course sign those guys. I'm totally fine with signing 1 top tier and 2 second tier free agents and then addressing the remainder in the draft. You and I wholly agree there.
What I don't want to do is some of the things we've heard on the board like signing Austin Hooper, drafting Okudah, re-signing Drake, trading for Diggs, and ending up with $7m and the remainder of our draft picks left. Then we're highly invested in some bizarre positions but starting XFL-tier guys at RT, C, DE, OLB, and K, or whatever combo these turn into, along with more XFL tier players as backups.
And no, I don't think anyone is advocating that the above should be our offseason, but god I want to invest in solving some of those holes with higher-tier FAs and high draft picks before I start considering upgrading positions where we can actually get by right now.
DVontel
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I’m easily choosing Okudah over Simmons & Brown because:
1. CB impacts the game way more than a ILB & DT.
2. CB’s longevity typically outranks ILBs due to the grueling nature of playing ILB. I wouldn’t even trust Vance to use Simmons correctly.
3. CBs cannot get neutralized like DTs can. Even Aaron Donald has gotten neutralized here & there. Hell, against the Ravens, he was neutralized the whole game.
If this is Okudah vs Willis vs Wirfs, then that’s a good debate for me. I think RT is almost just as impactful as LT nowadays. Okudah ranks over Simmons & Brown every time for me though for reasons above & while just being an overall better player.
Solar7
Go Suns
I'm all for your opinion here. I just don't agree with it in terms of roster construction. All good.
I would genuinely rather draft Willis/Wirfs (assuming all things are equal and the Combine doesn't change anything) over the defensive guys on account of protecting Kyler. If I had to bet on this team becoming a winner with a great offense led by the QB and a strong OL vs. a great secondary-led defense and a QB doing his best to get us to 16th in offensive production, I know which I'm picking.
TheCardFan
Things have changed.
ESPN top 10 ranked players:
Wirfs is #25
Becton is #28
Thomas #29
https://www.espn.com/nfl/draft/bestavailable
Wirfs is #25
Becton is #28
Thomas #29
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https://www.espn.com/nfl/draft/bestavailable
Jetstream Green
Kool Aid with a touch of vodka
Kerr was actually one our best players and that sort of tells you the state of our DL
TheCardFan
Things have changed.
Daniel Jerimiah's top 10:
Wills #11
Wirfs #13
Thomas #25
RANK 1
Chase Young, Edge
School: Ohio State | Year: Junior
Young is a tall, long and athletic defensive end. As a pass rusher, he explodes off the ball and gains ground in a hurry. He uses a quick swipe move and also has the ability to control the wrists of blockers. He can convert speed to power and is effective on loops and games. He does have a little tightness at the top of his rush. Against the run, he sets the edge easily and uses his quickness to slip blocks and create chaos behind the line of scrimmage. Overall, Young is an All-Pro talent, reminiscent of Julius Peppers and Mario Williams.
RANK 2
Derrick Brown, DT
School: Auburn | Year: Senior
Brown has excellent size, power and athleticism for the defensive tackle position. As a pass rusher, he has a quick first step and uses his hands very effectively. He wins with a violent club/swim move, a rip move or a nifty up-and-under counter move. Against the run, he easily holds the point of attack. The Auburn product creates separation from blockers with an explosive punch, which allows him to close quickly and make plays. His effort is consistent. Overall, this is a complete player capable of dominating on all three downs. He'll be a difference maker on Day 1.
RANK 3
Joe Burrow, QB
School: LSU | Year: Senior (RS)
Burrow has solid size for the position and he possesses many elite qualities. He operates out of the gun in the LSU spread attack and he is extremely accurate, efficient and instinctive. He is very smooth in his drop and he has the ability to process through his reads at a rapid pace. He throws with anticipation and he can naturally layer the ball over and under coverage. He doesn't have top shelf arm strength when driving the ball outside the numbers. He relies more on timing/touch. He doesn't flinch versus pressure when he sees something he likes down the field. If he needs to buy time, he can slide and climb the pocket with excellent feel/awareness. He has a nice burst when he leaves the pocket and he is more than a capable runner. Overall, Burrow lacks special arm strength but his combination of poise, accuracy and toughness is very appealing.
RANK 4
Isaiah Simmons, LB/S
School: Clemson | Year: Junior (RS)
Simmons is an extremely versatile, athletic defensive chess piece. He is a long, rangy athlete who lined up at linebacker, over the slot and in the deep middle for Clemson, thanks to his diverse and unique skill set. Against the pass, he has terrific range and instincts from the deep middle. He has the speed and agility to match up with top-flight tight ends and backs underneath. He is an explosive blitzer off the edge and in through the middle. Simmons overpowers running backs in protection. Against the run, he takes good angles and his speed allows him to make plays from the back side. He will struggle at times if he has to take on blocks on the edge. Overall, Simmons is built for today's NFL and his role could change week to week, depending on the opponent.
RANK 5
Jeff Okudah, CB
School: Ohio State | Year: Junior
Okudah has ideal size, length, twitch and competitiveness for the position. He is very comfortable and effective in both press and off coverage. He is patient in press and very fluid/smooth when he opens up. He does a nice job of staying on top versus vertical routes and he can locate the football down the field. He has the agility to mirror underneath. In off coverage, he explodes out of his plant and he is a dependable open field tackler. This is a very clean player with a very high floor and ceiling.
RANK 6
Tua Tagovailoa, QB
School: Alabama | Year: Junior
Tua lacks ideal height for the position but he has quick feet, eyes and release. He primarily operates in the gun but he will take some snaps under center. He is very crisp and urgent in his setup. He throws off a firm platform and he spins the ball really well. He always throws with the proper pace on slants and crossers. He doesn't have an overpowering arm but he can still place balls in tight windows. He understands how to hold and manipulate safeties with his eyes. He makes good decisions in the RPO game. He is a nifty runner but he prefers to buy time behind the line and remain in passing mode. He did struggle with identifying some underneath defenders when in the red zone. He is coming off a serious hip injury and that must be factored into his evaluation. Overall, Tua is the ultimate point guard. If he can remain healthy, he has the potential to be one of the NFL's most efficient passers.
RANK 7
Javon Kinlaw, DT
School: South Carolina | Year: Senior
Kinlaw is a hulking defensive tackle prospect. As a pass rusher, he has a sudden get-off and he's quick to shoot his hands and drive back blockers. He will also incorporate a push/pull move on occasion. He does need to broaden his arsenal of moves, but there is tremendous upside. Against the run, he easily locks out single blocks, but he gets washed by angle blocks and double teams. His effort is solid. Kinlaw showed out against elite competition, but he played down to the level of lesser opponents. Overall, Kinlaw's best football is in front of him and he has Pro Bowl potential.
RANK 8
CeeDee Lamb, WR
School: Oklahoma | Year: Junior
Lamb is a tall, lean wideout with top-tier hands, toughness and production. He lines up inside and outside. He is a smooth, fluid route runner and understands how to set up cornerbacks. He also has a good feel in zone. He attacks the ball when working back to the quarterback and tracks the ball naturally down the field. Lamb doesn't have elite speed, but he can find some extra juice when the ball is in the air. He is at his best after the catch, as he consistently breaks tackles and is also very elusive. Overall, Lamb is a polished player who is equally explosive and reliable.
RANK 9
Jerry Jeudy, WR
School: Alabama | Year: Junior
Jeudy is an elite route runner with outstanding burst, body control and awareness. He explodes off the line and uses his quickness to avoid press coverage. His snap at the top of the route is as good as any prospect in the last decade. He has the ability to make plays outside of his frame, but he will have some concentration lapses, which lead to drops. After the catch, he is very slippery and elusive, although he isn't going to break a lot of tackles. Overall, Jeudy is a loose athlete with elite route skills and he should emerge as a high-volume production guy very early in his career.
RANK 10
Mekhi Becton, OT
School: Louisville | Year: Junior
Becton is a massive left tackle prospect with a similar size/skill set to former first-rounder Bryant McKinnie. In pass protection, he has surprisingly nimble feet and uses his length to steer defenders. Even when he fails to land his punch, he can absorb rushers with his girth. He needs to improve his awareness versus games up front. He is a dominating run defender and collects knockdowns by the bunches. He latches on and uses his upper strength to torque and toss. He isn't as effective when working in space. Overall, Becton has areas to improve -- mainly balance and awareness -- but he is a rare athlete at this size and his upside is through the roof.
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap30...hs-top-50-2020-nfl-draft-prospect-rankings-10
Wills #11
Wirfs #13
Thomas #25
RANK 1
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Chase Young, Edge
School: Ohio State | Year: Junior
Young is a tall, long and athletic defensive end. As a pass rusher, he explodes off the ball and gains ground in a hurry. He uses a quick swipe move and also has the ability to control the wrists of blockers. He can convert speed to power and is effective on loops and games. He does have a little tightness at the top of his rush. Against the run, he sets the edge easily and uses his quickness to slip blocks and create chaos behind the line of scrimmage. Overall, Young is an All-Pro talent, reminiscent of Julius Peppers and Mario Williams.
RANK 2
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Derrick Brown, DT
School: Auburn | Year: Senior
Brown has excellent size, power and athleticism for the defensive tackle position. As a pass rusher, he has a quick first step and uses his hands very effectively. He wins with a violent club/swim move, a rip move or a nifty up-and-under counter move. Against the run, he easily holds the point of attack. The Auburn product creates separation from blockers with an explosive punch, which allows him to close quickly and make plays. His effort is consistent. Overall, this is a complete player capable of dominating on all three downs. He'll be a difference maker on Day 1.
RANK 3
You must be registered for see images attach
Joe Burrow, QB
School: LSU | Year: Senior (RS)
Burrow has solid size for the position and he possesses many elite qualities. He operates out of the gun in the LSU spread attack and he is extremely accurate, efficient and instinctive. He is very smooth in his drop and he has the ability to process through his reads at a rapid pace. He throws with anticipation and he can naturally layer the ball over and under coverage. He doesn't have top shelf arm strength when driving the ball outside the numbers. He relies more on timing/touch. He doesn't flinch versus pressure when he sees something he likes down the field. If he needs to buy time, he can slide and climb the pocket with excellent feel/awareness. He has a nice burst when he leaves the pocket and he is more than a capable runner. Overall, Burrow lacks special arm strength but his combination of poise, accuracy and toughness is very appealing.
RANK 4
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Isaiah Simmons, LB/S
School: Clemson | Year: Junior (RS)
Simmons is an extremely versatile, athletic defensive chess piece. He is a long, rangy athlete who lined up at linebacker, over the slot and in the deep middle for Clemson, thanks to his diverse and unique skill set. Against the pass, he has terrific range and instincts from the deep middle. He has the speed and agility to match up with top-flight tight ends and backs underneath. He is an explosive blitzer off the edge and in through the middle. Simmons overpowers running backs in protection. Against the run, he takes good angles and his speed allows him to make plays from the back side. He will struggle at times if he has to take on blocks on the edge. Overall, Simmons is built for today's NFL and his role could change week to week, depending on the opponent.
RANK 5
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Jeff Okudah, CB
School: Ohio State | Year: Junior
Okudah has ideal size, length, twitch and competitiveness for the position. He is very comfortable and effective in both press and off coverage. He is patient in press and very fluid/smooth when he opens up. He does a nice job of staying on top versus vertical routes and he can locate the football down the field. He has the agility to mirror underneath. In off coverage, he explodes out of his plant and he is a dependable open field tackler. This is a very clean player with a very high floor and ceiling.
RANK 6
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Tua Tagovailoa, QB
School: Alabama | Year: Junior
Tua lacks ideal height for the position but he has quick feet, eyes and release. He primarily operates in the gun but he will take some snaps under center. He is very crisp and urgent in his setup. He throws off a firm platform and he spins the ball really well. He always throws with the proper pace on slants and crossers. He doesn't have an overpowering arm but he can still place balls in tight windows. He understands how to hold and manipulate safeties with his eyes. He makes good decisions in the RPO game. He is a nifty runner but he prefers to buy time behind the line and remain in passing mode. He did struggle with identifying some underneath defenders when in the red zone. He is coming off a serious hip injury and that must be factored into his evaluation. Overall, Tua is the ultimate point guard. If he can remain healthy, he has the potential to be one of the NFL's most efficient passers.
RANK 7
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Javon Kinlaw, DT
School: South Carolina | Year: Senior
Kinlaw is a hulking defensive tackle prospect. As a pass rusher, he has a sudden get-off and he's quick to shoot his hands and drive back blockers. He will also incorporate a push/pull move on occasion. He does need to broaden his arsenal of moves, but there is tremendous upside. Against the run, he easily locks out single blocks, but he gets washed by angle blocks and double teams. His effort is solid. Kinlaw showed out against elite competition, but he played down to the level of lesser opponents. Overall, Kinlaw's best football is in front of him and he has Pro Bowl potential.
RANK 8
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CeeDee Lamb, WR
School: Oklahoma | Year: Junior
Lamb is a tall, lean wideout with top-tier hands, toughness and production. He lines up inside and outside. He is a smooth, fluid route runner and understands how to set up cornerbacks. He also has a good feel in zone. He attacks the ball when working back to the quarterback and tracks the ball naturally down the field. Lamb doesn't have elite speed, but he can find some extra juice when the ball is in the air. He is at his best after the catch, as he consistently breaks tackles and is also very elusive. Overall, Lamb is a polished player who is equally explosive and reliable.
RANK 9
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Jerry Jeudy, WR
School: Alabama | Year: Junior
Jeudy is an elite route runner with outstanding burst, body control and awareness. He explodes off the line and uses his quickness to avoid press coverage. His snap at the top of the route is as good as any prospect in the last decade. He has the ability to make plays outside of his frame, but he will have some concentration lapses, which lead to drops. After the catch, he is very slippery and elusive, although he isn't going to break a lot of tackles. Overall, Jeudy is a loose athlete with elite route skills and he should emerge as a high-volume production guy very early in his career.
RANK 10
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Mekhi Becton, OT
School: Louisville | Year: Junior
Becton is a massive left tackle prospect with a similar size/skill set to former first-rounder Bryant McKinnie. In pass protection, he has surprisingly nimble feet and uses his length to steer defenders. Even when he fails to land his punch, he can absorb rushers with his girth. He needs to improve his awareness versus games up front. He is a dominating run defender and collects knockdowns by the bunches. He latches on and uses his upper strength to torque and toss. He isn't as effective when working in space. Overall, Becton has areas to improve -- mainly balance and awareness -- but he is a rare athlete at this size and his upside is through the roof.
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap30...hs-top-50-2020-nfl-draft-prospect-rankings-10
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Krangodnzr
Captain of Team Conner
One of the questions you always have to ask when you watch college prospects: Can this guy play this way in the pros? Is he physically good enough? Becton is a monster. He is just physically stronger and bigger, and he is nasty.
Krangodnzr
Captain of Team Conner
Okudah is significantly better than that the OL available. He is, according to many scouts, the best CB to come out since PP21. You dont pass on a player that good for an INSIDE LB or a good RT.
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Dr. Jones
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So was Tony Mandarich.
In short...... I somewhat disagree with this assessment. Especially when you look at someone so raw..... so unpolished..... and so untested as a pass protector in college.
Who do I think of when I see Becton?
This guy: http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/greg-robinson?id=2543458
And this guy: http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/ereck-flowers?id=2552452
And then there's this: https://theriotreport.com/bust-alert-choose-wisely-when-drafting-an-offensive-lineman/
And this: http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap30...t-tackles-are-no-longer-safe-firstround-picks
of Wills, Thomas, Wirfs, Josh Jones, and Becton...... Two will fail for sure and most likely...... It will be three.
Totally agree with the part about CB over ILB or OLine. Not sure about the PP21 piece though. Especially with Stephon Gilmore coming out since 2011.
Last edited:
Krangodnzr
Captain of Team Conner
1. It's funny you mention Greg Robinson, because I would compare Robinson more to Thomas than Becton. He was just like Thomas, all SEC, all hyped up but if you watched his tape his feet werent the best. Ereck Flowers also isnt the same level physically to Becton.
Thomas just doesnt ever dominate his guy. Weak punch. I hate to continue to do this, but there is a reason Thomas is falling to 4th OT on every mock draft for every pundit who has legit connections in the scouting community. Hes just not good enough to be an NFL LT right now. And I saw you think he should be moved to RT?!?! Weve seen that disaster on a number of occasions. That's an awful idea, it rarely works.
Becton has quite a few starts, so it's a bit disingenuous to say hes that raw. His pass sets already look better than Thomas and he is way better blocking at the POA. It's not even close. What Becton sucks at is blocking on the second level, while Thomas is quite good at that.
With so few OTs being capable of starting immediately, physical traits matter so much more. Look at what the Eagles did with Dillard. They essentially redshirted him last year. He did get some PT (and he sucked!), but they drafted him to develop.
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