Wolves @ Suns Game Thread

[jbeecham]

Nash usually gets a breather at the start of the 4th qtr until about 7 minutes to go in the 4th. Lately both House & Barbosa are in the game along with Diaw, but tonight Diaw was in foul trouble and it was up to House & barbosa to create offense. Lets just say it wasn't very pretty and House decided to to try take over the game and didn't make most of his shots.

 

[jbeecham]

I watched the second half, and I have to say that I'm impressed that this board isn't complaining more about the officiating. I thought it was pretty poor and favored Minnesota. I also felt the last play was goaltending, but I guess the reality is that the Suns probably would have lost in overtime anyway.

Being at the game, I didn't have the benefit of replays most of the time so it was hard to tell when calls were bad (other than a few bad ones I listed above). The Suns really blew this game by missing layups, fumbling passes that would've lead to layups and missing open shots when they got them. They didn't do a good job of moving without the ball or having good ball movement. I also think Eddie House shot them out of the game a little in the 4th.

I was pissed at the refs after they lost because of the way they lost on the last play, but I made a comment at halftime that other than 1 or 2 bad calls the refs were doing a decent job. I guess I was just begging for them to screw up the game by saying that so you can all blame me for jinxing the team

 

[Errntknght]

I recorded the game so I got to examine the final block all I wanted. It was definitely a close call... Garnett caught it right about midway between Shawns release point and the middle of basket. I'd say a bit closer to the bucket than his hand but there is no way I could say I could observe that the ball was on the way down, which is mainly what the refs look for. A good shot blocker like Garnett is going to get that call 9 times out of 10. Of course, his statement that he caught it right out Shawn's hand is BS as it traveled a good 3-4 feet before he hit it.

 

[Dr. Dumas]

Well, I was a little bit upset about the last play. I'm not going to say whether or not it was a goal-tend, because it was just too close to call either way.

I felt that if the play could have gone either way, that the ref's should have called the goal-tend and sent the game into overtime. I just hate it when the ref's dictate the outcome of the game. I think that the teams should do the dictating and that's why I felt it needed to go to over-time. Or, that the ref's should be able to look at the replay on a monitor to make a final decision.

 

[newfan101]

Well, I was a little bit upset about the last play. I'm not going to say whether or not it was a goal-tend, because it was just too close to call either way.

I felt that if the play could have gone either way, that the ref's should have called the goal-tend and sent the game into overtime. I just hate it when the ref's dictate the outcome of the game. I think that the teams should do the dictating and that's why I felt it needed to go to over-time. Or, that the ref's should be able to look at the replay on a monitor to make a final decision.

Funny, I feel the exact opposite, which is why I was infuriated watching the Super Bowl. By not calling goaltending, the ref didn't dictate the outcome of the game, and instead let the play stand, which, in borderline cases, is the way it should be. Garnett's block was a great play, and since it was so close, I'd rather see that rewarded than the weak flip at the basket. I felt the same way about Amare's block of Brad Miller last year, and the same way about 4 or 5 great plays by Seattle in the Super Bowl.

BTW, I'm very disappointed in Nash comparing this to Seattle in the Super Bowl. Seattle made plays and had them taken away. The Suns needed the refs to bail them out with a goaltending. That's a big difference. If Marion had dunked it at the last second but had it waived off over a ticky-tack push off, then maybe he could compare the two. But even then, considering the magnitude, nothing will ever compare to the hose job the Seahawks received in the Super Bowl.

 

[jbeecham]

Where did Nash compare this to the Superbowl?

 

[newfan101]

It's under the "quote of the day" in ESPN's daily dime.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailydime?page=dailydime-060207

Quote of the Day


"'I feel like the Seattle Seahawks. It's remarkable. There's like five games this year where we've not gotten a call in the last 30 seconds. After awhile, you realize you don't get those games back, and it's tough to take."


-- Suns guard Steve Nash, chafing at a no-call on a borderline goaltending by Kevin Garnett at the end of the Timberwolves' 103-101 win in Phoenix.

 

[elindholm]

I don't buy the "let the players play" argument. That's a cliche that's thrown around by whichever team loses a close game. Everyone knows what the rules are and are accustomed to having the rules enforced. If things change at the end of the game, by how much do they change? And how are the players supposed to know? Then you just have anarchy and frustration, because no one can agree on what the rules of the game are.

 

[myrondizzo]

I think that the refs just let this game get too physical. once the game is that physical its hard to get control back. they called almost no hand checking called and nash really stuggles in that type of game.

 

[jibikao]

It's under the "quote of the day" in ESPN's daily dime.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailydime?page=dailydime-060207

Quote of the Day


"'I feel like the Seattle Seahawks. It's remarkable. There's like five games this year where we've not gotten a call in the last 30 seconds. After awhile, you realize you don't get those games back, and it's tough to take."


-- Suns guard Steve Nash, chafing at a no-call on a borderline goaltending by Kevin Garnett at the end of the Timberwolves' 103-101 win in Phoenix.

I guess Nash finally speaks out. lol Remember that Knicks game when they call that bogus call on Kurt Thomas with less than a minute left??

But really, we can't let games get that close to begin with. If we know we are not going to get any favorable calls in the last 30s or so, then don't let the game get that close. That's the only solution!

 

[newfan101]

I don't buy the "let the players play" argument. That's a cliche that's thrown around by whichever team loses a close game. Everyone knows what the rules are and are accustomed to having the rules enforced. If things change at the end of the game, by how much do they change? And how are the players supposed to know? Then you just have anarchy and frustration, because no one can agree on what the rules of the game are.

Huh? That argument applied to Minnesota ... the team that won. In fact, the "let the players play" argument applies just as much to the winning team as the losing team, in most cases because they got away with something that wasn't called. But anyway, your point is taken. I just couldn't disagree more with the "let the ref’s ref" argument. Of course, I don't own the "Bernie Fryer’s Greatest Calls" DVD and I didn't have a poster of Ed T. Rush hanging on my wall as a child, so I may be a bit biased.

 

[nowagimp]

I think that the refs just let this game get too physical. once the game is that physical its hard to get control back. they called almost no hand checking called and nash really stuggles in that type of game.

Letting games get too physical is caused by the inconsistent nature of the foul thresholds. Players are trying to be as physical as possible without getting called. The refs are afraid to foul anyone out because the officiating is so subjective. Everyone argues calls because of the subjectivity. Fans cannot understand when fouls even occur( what is too much physicality?).

I agree that hand checking calls have been extremely inconsistent in the NBA this year. I believe that alot of politicing is going on behind the scenes to limit the number of checking calls. Also, players like Kobe get their defenders whistled alot for hand checking, while others like Nash probably only have about 10% of the hand checks called. Diaw is hand checked alot(but never called) when he drives to the hoop. The pistons are a prolific hand checking team, and the success story of the NBA season so far(the spurs also rely alot on hand checking). I'm sure David Stern has determined when and where and how often the rules will be enforced. Theres probably a weekly review and action items on what thresholds to change. Older players with big contracts will have to retire early($$$) if hand checking is truly enforced. Who will guard Gilbert Arenas if hand checking is not allowed? Older players have used handchecking to compensate for lack of quickness for years(MJ was a big offender late in his career, though it was legal then).

The twolves game was no different. I thought that Banks got away with alot of banging and grabbing on Nash. Banks was called for 5 fouls, but should have been fouled out early in the second half. I just dont understand why Nash doesnt get the handcheck calls, I guess he doesnt LOOK fast enough. When it becomes wrestling, expect teams to get wrestlers instead of basketball players, and expect wresting endurance to win the day. If fouls arent called, the bigger players will wear down the smaller players, period. Maybe the "Rock" can play in this game. Thanks alot Mr Stern, you have proved once again that rules are meaningless unless they are enforced.

 

[jibikao]

Hey guys, I didn't watch the game but Nash shot 11 FT which is A LOT considering he usually doesn't take more than 4-6. So how did Nash draw the fouls? Sounds like it wasn't from hand-checking... so from driving inside?

 

[nowagimp]

Hey guys, I didn't watch the game but Nash shot 11 FT which is A LOT considering he usually doesn't take more than 4-6. So how did Nash draw the fouls? Sounds like it wasn't from hand-checking... so from driving inside?

He was hand checked or banged on almost every drive. He was also grabbed when moving without the ball to prevent him from receiving the pass. Probably should have fouled out two guards(Banks and Anthony) by the fourth quarter. Seemed like if he passed on the drive, they didnt call hand check or bump fouls. Unfortunately, the fouling limits the effectiveness of the pass as well. Also, at least one of the foul shots was a technical. There was a big mismatch with his defender and they were trying to make him shoot, but the calls were limited.

 

[myrondizzo]

the suns had 18 ft in the first half and then after that the number of fouls that got called really drppoed off.

 

[jibikao]

He was hand checked or banged on almost every drive. He was also grabbed when moving without the ball to prevent him from receiving the pass. Probably should have fouled out two guards(Banks and Anthony) by the fourth quarter. Seemed like if he passed on the drive, they didnt call hand check or bump fouls. Unfortunately, the fouling limits the effectiveness of the pass as well. Also, at least one of the foul shots was a technical. There was a big mismatch with his defender and they were trying to make him shoot, but the calls were limited.

Many teams are using this strategy now to basically turn Nash into a scorer. Realistically, what are the best ways to counter this? Are our guys REALLY that dependent on Nash creating for them? Besides, House's quick trigger and Barbosa's quick feet, why can't we run plays to get some of the guys open instead of letting Nash to create ALL THE TIME? Nash is a poing guard that is known to set picks (how he set picks for Dirk). Why can't D'Antoni come up some plays that involve Nash NOT touching the ball and drawing defense out?

This has become one of our biggest weakness. I mean Nash shot 10/19 last night so it isn't too bad (a bit over 50% for a guard). But if Nash goes cold, the game could get uglier.

 

[golfcardfan]

The officials just sucked in that game period! They let Minn get away with a ton of fouls and the Suns know it, which is why they are pissed. And they have the right to be, they seem to not get calls even against inferior teams maybe just the refs trying to create a closer game? I don't know its just frustrating to watch a team foul the crap out of your guys and not have it called, then on the other end get calls on our guys.

 

[jibikao]

Letting games get too physical is caused by the inconsistent nature of the foul thresholds. Players are trying to be as physical as possible without getting called. The refs are afraid to foul anyone out because the officiating is so subjective. Everyone argues calls because of the subjectivity. Fans cannot understand when fouls even occur( what is too much physicality?).

I agree that hand checking calls have been extremely inconsistent in the NBA this year. I believe that alot of politicing is going on behind the scenes to limit the number of checking calls. Also, players like Kobe get their defenders whistled alot for hand checking, while others like Nash probably only have about 10% of the hand checks called. Diaw is hand checked alot(but never called) when he drives to the hoop. The pistons are a prolific hand checking team, and the success story of the NBA season so far(the spurs also rely alot on hand checking). I'm sure David Stern has determined when and where and how often the rules will be enforced. Theres probably a weekly review and action items on what thresholds to change. Older players with big contracts will have to retire early($$$) if hand checking is truly enforced. Who will guard Gilbert Arenas if hand checking is not allowed? Older players have used handchecking to compensate for lack of quickness for years(MJ was a big offender late in his career, though it was legal then).

The twolves game was no different. I thought that Banks got away with alot of banging and grabbing on Nash. Banks was called for 5 fouls, but should have been fouled out early in the second half. I just dont understand why Nash doesnt get the handcheck calls, I guess he doesnt LOOK fast enough. When it becomes wrestling, expect teams to get wrestlers instead of basketball players, and expect wresting endurance to win the day. If fouls arent called, the bigger players will wear down the smaller players, period. Maybe the "Rock" can play in this game. Thanks alot Mr Stern, you have proved once again that rules are meaningless unless they are enforced.

Maybe Stern has Kobe as the MVP in his mind right now!!! lol It won't surprise me a bit. They can't let Nash repeat it this year.

 

[devilalum]

I didn't have a poster of Ed T. Rush hanging on my wall as a child, so I may be a bit biased.

Are you talking about the one of him in a Speedo or the one where he's lifting weights in front of the mirror?

 

[nowagimp]

Maybe Stern has Kobe as the MVP in his mind right now!!! lol It won't surprise me a bit. They can't let Nash repeat it this year.

I dont know if stern cares that Kobe is MVP. Stern cares about $$$$ and fan involvement across the NBA. Unfortunately, this means that he would like to attract fans who are casual, dont know the game or the rules and dont care, to maximize fan ba$e. This means that the interest of the NBA is to keep the better teams from having too many blowouts, and get some upsets for teams that are not generally competitive(like the twolves and knicks). I think that this has been the view for a long time in other sports venues as well. I just dont like it when the game is inconsistent or the rules are fuzzy, it reeks of WWF and manipulation. If I want entertainment, I'll choose hollywood. When I want sports, I want the game to be consistent dammit!

 

[elindholm]

Are you talking about the one of him in a Speedo or the one where he's lifting weights in front of the mirror?

LOL

 

[Errntknght]

I'm not a big fan of NBA refs - Violet Palmer makes several egregious calls in almost every game and the refs were ridiculous in the Knicks game but I thought the Twolves game was well refereed. I just watched the last 7 minutes over and counted the number of hand checks on Nash - zero! Times Nash was grabbed so he couldn't move without the ball - zero. Garnett bumped him on a drive and got called for a foul.

I know the there was some contact on the perimeter during the rest of the game - I watched most of it twice - but I didn't have the sense that it was anything extraordinary so I thought I'd pay particular attention for a while and see how bad it was.

What I did see as I followed Nash was that Garnett bulldozed him down into the paint every time Stevie went under a pick Kevin set. The net effect was that Nash started going over the picks. I've complained for years about Duncan using the bulldoze maneuver but I've noticed that KT uses it some and Diaw has started doing it frequently so to be equitable I'll have to start complaining about them, too, I guess. In the seven minute stretch they each did it once that I saw. (Incidentally, this was the same manuever Rashard Lewis used to keep Bell from following Ray Allen when the latter hit the game winning three against us a couple of weeks back.) It's obviously a moving pick but for the present it appears the league has decided not to call it.

 

[CaptainInsano]

I watched the hawks vs detroit and clippers vs knicks game and they all reminded me of why we struggle against the lower teams. In the hawks vs detroit Joe "take the money and run" Johnson had 29 points and some of those points were on key 4th quarter 3 pointers, regular jumpshot, and layups and I realise that we are missing that this year. His ability to score consistantly and score to finish out games are part of what got us our great record last year and now it is gone.

So then I kind of felt depressed that he was gone and because of all things he decided to WASTE his talent for the next FIVE YEARS in atlanta. Then almost the same thing happened in the clippers game, they were looking to be headed toward a loss when Cassel buried 2 key three pointers and Brand got some important boards.

We just don't have that this year, consistant scoring from certain people and an ability to finish games strong is completely lacking. You have to also remember that the problems we have right now will kill us in the playoffs.

 

[golfcardfan]

Calm down there Insano we lost a game here not that big of a deal. Teams that have beat us have usually had to shoot a very high percentage and get a few favorable calls from the refs. Its not like we got run off the court. Joe Johnson is gone let it go if he were still here we would not have the team we have with boris and raja and who knows who else. We have a much better and deeper team than last year. We are better now with out amare than last season, with Amare we are top 3 with Detroit and Spurs.

 

[jibikao]

Calm down there Insano we lost a game here not that big of a deal. Teams that have beat us have usually had to shoot a very high percentage and get a few favorable calls from the refs. Its not like we got run off the court. Joe Johnson is gone let it go if he were still here we would not have the team we have with boris and raja and who knows who else. We have a much better and deeper team than last year. We are better now with out amare than last season, with Amare we are top 3 with Detroit and Spurs.

Like how Wolves shot 56% to beat us? lol