Would anyone be DISSAPOINTED if we wind up with Roth??

[BIGDADDY_REDBIRD]

PACards fan...you're certainly entitled to your opinion. Peyton Manning picked apart 2 of the the most over-rated teams in the play-offs minus the Packers. After he throws for 5 TD"s & no int's vs The Pats we will then call him the best in the NFL.....Donkey's & Chefs

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by lrk27
I'll argue point by point.

Final BCS Standings: Miami, OH Strength of schedule 68, Mississippi Strength of Schedule 70. Very comparable schedule, and if you buy the BCS system, Ben played a tougher schedule. The fact that Eli was in the SEC doesn't mean anything anymore. He DID NOT play against better competition.

The BCS is a fraud. How many future first round picks (or any round draft picks) played in the Mac this year? 3 or 4 at the most.
If you go by the NFL's talent evaluation, the SEC IS a more talented conference. We aren't judging whether Big Ben is a good college quarterback, we're judging if he will be a good NFL quarterback. And he hasn't played against the NFL caliber talent that Eli has on a regular basis.

Originally posted by lrk27
Yes, the support system is nice and will make any GM feel good about Eli, but it does not make him a better QB. I will agree that that makes him less likely to be a total bust, but no more likely to be successful.

It better prepares him to play in the NFL. If Eli has a problem, he can call up his big brother who he knows like, well a brother. Who will Ben call? His QB coach?

Originally posted by lrk27
And yes, Ben was awful against Iowa, I'll give you that. But to say that was the only good team he played is incorrect. Go ahead and rip the small conferences but Bowling Green finished the season ranked ahead of Florida (Eli's big win) and Ben beat them twice, the second of which was one of the more impressive games any QB had all year.

You'll give me that? How noble of you. Bowling Green finished higher than Florida! Does that make them a more talented college football team? Nope, sorry, that's not the case. Florida's backups are better than Bowling Green's starters at almost any position. Year after year, Florida has NFL talent. What about Bowling Green?

Originally posted by lrk27
The competition they both faced was very comparable.

IF you were creating a schedule for your team, which one would you pick? The second schedule (Miami's) is much easier.

2 Sat., Aug 30 @Vanderbilt W 24-21
3 Sat., Sep 6 @Memphis L 44-34
4 Sat., Sep 13 Louisiana-Monroe W 59-14
6 Sat., Sep 27 Texas Tech L 49-45
7 Sat., Oct 4 @Florida W 20-17
8 Sat., Oct 11 Arkansas State W 55-0
9 Sat., Oct 18 Alabama W 43-28
10 Sat., Oct 25 Arkansas W 19-7
11 Sat., Nov 1 South Carolina W 43-40
12 Sat., Nov 8 @Auburn W 24-20
14 Sat., Nov 22 LSU L 17-14
15 Thur., Nov 27 @Mississippi State W 31-0
20 Fri., Jan 2 Oklahoma State W 31-28

vs.

2 Sat., Aug 30 @Iowa L 21-3
4 Sat., Sep 13 @Northwestern W 44-14
5 Sat., Sep 20 @Colorado State W 41-21
6 Sat., Sep 27 Cincinnati W 42-37
7 Sat., Oct 4 Akron W 45-20
8 Sat., Oct 11 Buffalo W 59-3
9 Sat., Oct 18 @Ball State W 49-3
10 Sat., Oct 25 @Kent State W 38-30
11 Tues., Nov 4 Bowling Green W 33-10
13 Wed., Nov 12 Marshall W 45-6
14 Sat., Nov 22 @Ohio W 49-31
15 Fri., Nov 28 @UCF W 56-21
16 Thur., Dec 4 @Bowling Green W 49-27
18 Thur., Dec 18 @Louisville W 49-28

Originally posted by lrk27
For Manning's stats to equal Ben's, he would have to go 68 for his next 52 for 769 yards and 6 TDs. (Ben did throw one more pick). Ben's QB rating is 16 points higher.

All against inferior competion. Look at the offensive numbers from all MAC teams! Almost every school in that conference has a porous defense.

Originally posted by lrk27
So again, if Eli's last name was Smith, Ben would be clear cut number one pick.

If Ben played in the SEC, PAC-10, Big Ten, etc. you could easily make that argument. But he didn't. And he played poorly against the good teams of those conferences.

I'm not going to argue this any longer. IMO Ben presents a much greater risk. We can't afford to strike out on this pick. We have to take a player that represents the least risk since this team is lacking talent.

 

[lrk27]

Originally posted by Krangthebrain
The BCS is a fraud. How many future first round picks (or any round draft picks) played in the Mac this year? 3 or 4 at the most.
If you go by the NFL's talent evaluation, the SEC IS a more talented conference. We aren't judging whether Big Ben is a good college quarterback, we're judging if he will be a good NFL quarterback. And he hasn't played against the NFL caliber talent that Eli has on a regular basis.

Using that theory, Ben is also throwing to and protected by inferior players.

I'm not saying that Manning isn't a great choice, or a future franchise QB, but don't give him all the credit in the world just because he is a Manning and played in the SEC. He may have played against better competition in the SEC, but if you notice, his numbers were better his first year than his last two. Great work ethic, but did he improve in college? Bottom line - both great college QBs. If you buy into the bloodline thing, Eli is your guy. If you buy into the 'really good in college thing', Ben's your guy. Neither one appears to be a bust from the outside, but I'm sure people said that when big brother Peyton was being compared to Ryan Leaf. All we can do is wait five years to see. Having said that, I still think Roy Williams is your guy, or trade down.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

If there's all these questions about both guys then we should just take Sean Taylor.There's no questions about him.

 

[JasonKGME]

Originally posted by BIGDADDY_REDBIRD
PACards fan...you're certainly entitled to your opinion. Peyton Manning picked apart 2 of the the most over-rated teams in the play-offs minus the Packers. After he throws for 5 TD"s & no int's vs The Pats we will then call him the best in the NFL.....Donkey's & Chefs

I base my opinion more on his overall career then just on those two games personally, I mean look at his career NFL stats, they speak for themselves:

Minus his rookie year he has thrown for over 4000 yards each year, his completion percentage has gone up every single year (62.1, 62.5, 62.7, 66.3, 67), he's thrown more then 25TD each and every year, and in all those years has never thrown more int then picks (not including the rookie year) All that over the last 5 years, can you find me another QB that has done this over a 5 year span?

Abouth the only QB you could put above him for his 1st 6 yearsin the league would be Dan Marino whos TD #'s were better but his comp % not as good.

 

[JeffGollin]

Yesterday, I'm eavesdropping on the East West Game and this dude (Schneider) throws what, to me, looks like a "balloon" to a receiver on a deep out pattern, miraculously completing the pass.

The commentators made a big deal about how "Schneider proved to the scouts just now that he can throw the deep out."

I'm thinking to myself - "Yeah right." Either Manning and (more probably) Roethlisberger would have drilled a laser between the dude's numbers.

So, incidently, would have McCown.

If the question is Roeth if no Eli (assuming he's there at #3), Taylor notwithstanding, it wouldn't take me more than 5 seconds to hand in the card with Big Ben's name on it.

 

[Southpaw]

Originally posted by phillycard
I was talking with a friend today (eagles clown) who was saying that if we wind up with Roth, the odds are greater that he will become the next Leaf then be a winning qb. He acknowledged that the draft is a crap shoot, but proceeded to roast us for being stupid enough to win that last game. Well that's all water under the bridge now, so will anyone be that dissapointed if we do wind up with B.R.? He also went on to say that if we don't get Eli, we shouldn't draft Ben at all. I really trust (don't know why, maybe it's Mr. Green) that we'll do the right thing regardless. I'm looking forward to seeing more Roth highlights in the coming months as the draft approaches, as I really don't watch that much college ball. I need to know we'll be okay. That's all.

 

[Southpaw]

Originally posted by BIGDADDY_REDBIRD
I don't know why anyone would think Eli is better than Michael Vick??? Not at this point ...

Eli is probably a better QB than Michael. Ask Dan Reeves. Vick is arguably the best athlete in the NFL right now. He is a running back playing QB. With his style he may get crippled out of the game. If MIchael Vick had to sit in the pocket and throw 30 passes a game, I'm not sure he would be a top ten QB. If he keeps up this style he won't last 5 years total. Eli has a much better concept of playing QB.

 

[Lefty]

I would rather have Eli because he has played against better personnel and he has been a playing quarterback before high school.

I don't think the Cardinals will be disappointed if they get either one but I would rather have Eli.

 

[Harry]

Gosh, I hate to give up all my secrets, but the MAC is my home conference. To call the competition inferior is only partly accurate. That said they typically play a different game. Marshall was never really a MAC school anymore than UCF was. They merely used the conference as a stepping-stone to what they believed to be green fields (as in money). Historically, it is a running conference, as evidenced by all the nationally ranked rushers who have been drafted from it. Consequently, most teams are better at defending run than the pass. The league typically gets second-line cornerbacks whose speed doesn't match those in say, the SEC. This is one reason the passing teams from the league typically haven't fared well outside the conference, except against second-line conferences.

Sometimes they have had QBs like Harris or Batch who could throw some, but are better a multi-threat QBs, like mini-Vicks.

Marshall, UCF and now Miami were primarily pass-based offenses and MAC defenses simply weren't prepared to cope. Look at NIU, a run-based team. They fared better out of the conference, than inside it. I know they had a lot of passing yards, but that was because the opposition set up their defenses to stop Turner.

However, none of this is said to take away from Roethlisberger's potential. He has excellent tools and deserves to be a high pick. I would be satisfied if Green took him and I think the Cards are leaning his way, if he is there when they select. He will have far more adjustments to make than Manning. Success will depend if he can make those adjustments. In college, he got by on athleticism. He won't do that the NFL. Virtually everyone there is a great athlete. Winning QBs in the NFL typically become so, because they can read defenses and execute. Look at most of the recent Super Bowl winning QBs. Most of them do not have nearly the best skill sets at their position.

Turning to Manning, the business about the name is silly. It's not the name; it's the culture. He was groomed early on by an NFL level QB to be an NFL QB. Do you think it's an accident that Peyton studies so much film or understands it so well when he does? He has 10 more years of quality coaching than most QBs have. So does Eli. Eli will succeed because he knows the game better than 90% of the 3-year NFL QBs, like McCown. He doesn't have as good a skill set as Roethlisberger, but he can read defenses far better and knows his limitations better. He can start from day one, Roethlisberger can't.

So, if Green has a three-year plan, Roethlisberger makes sense. If he wants to win now, line help or a good CB would be a better choice.

In the end Roethlisberger may be the better QB, but Manning is good enough to take this team a long way and it will likely be several years before Roethlisberger surpasses him, if he ever does.

 

[arthurracoon]

I have seen each bowl game of Ben and Eli and seen other highlights.

What concerns me about Ben:

Many of his great throws were when his WR were WIDE open. In the NFL, you will not find people to be wide open. They will be tightly covered and you will have to place the ball so that only they can make the catch.

Eli on the other hand made most of his throws in tight coverage and placed them well. Furthermore I saw him making lots of audibles like his brother.


Both Eli and Ben can be All Pro's, but there is a larger margin of error with Ben than Eli. Eli is the safer pick. Ben could become as good as Eli, but he will need a much better coaching staff.
Given the Cards history...Take ELI MANNING!!!

 

[arthurracoon]

Originally posted by Harry
Turning to Manning, the business about the name is silly. It's not the name; it's the culture. He was groomed early on by an NFL level QB to be an NFL QB. Do you think it's an accident that Peyton studies so much film or understands it so well when he does? He has 10 more years of quality coaching than most QBs have. So does Eli. Eli will succeed because he knows the game better than 90% of the 3-year NFL QBs, like McCown. He doesn't have as good a skill set as Roethlisberger, but he can read defenses far better and knows his limitations better. He can start from day one, Roethlisberger can't.

but Manning is good enough to take this team a long way and it will likely be several years before Roethlisberger surpasses him, if he ever does.

 

[Metcalf Rules]

Originally posted by phillycard
I was talking with a friend today (eagles clown) who was saying that if we wind up with Roth, the odds are greater that he will become the next Leaf then be a winning qb. He acknowledged that the draft is a crap shoot, but proceeded to roast us for being stupid enough to win that last game. .

I seem to remember a lot of Eagles fans, maybe your friend was one of them, who were ready to roast their team when they drafted McNabb a few years back. He turned out alright.
With Green having input, the Cards will make a good choice come draft day.

 

[arthurracoon]

Re: Re: Would anyone be DISSAPOINTED if we wind up with Roth??

Originally posted by Metcalf Rules
I seem to remember a lot of Eagles fans, maybe your friend was one of them, who were ready to roast their team when they drafted McNabb a few years back. He turned out alright.
With Green having input, the Cards will make a good choice come draft day.

Welcome Metcalf Rules!

 

[PACardsFan]

Originally posted by JasonKGME
I base my opinion more on his overall career then just on those two games personally, I mean look at his career NFL stats, they speak for themselves:

Minus his rookie year he has thrown for over 4000 yards each year, his completion percentage has gone up every single year (62.1, 62.5, 62.7, 66.3, 67), he's thrown more then 25TD each and every year, and in all those years has never thrown more int then picks (not including the rookie year) All that over the last 5 years, can you find me another QB that has done this over a 5 year span?

Abouth the only QB you could put above him for his 1st 6 yearsin the league would be Dan Marino whos TD #'s were better but his comp % not as good.

Nothing but the cold FACTS to back up my point. Good Post Jason

 

[BIGDADDY_REDBIRD]

So much for the best QB in the NFL..... IMO the best QB is Steve Mc Nair.

 

[vikesfan]

Originally posted by vikesfan
If Eli is so good: 10 years plus experience, equivalent to being a three year pro etc - why didn't Eli tear up the NCAA, set all time records and win the Heisman?

 

[stretchthefield]

Ben = good pick at #3

No I would not be dissapointed if the Cards pick Ben. It's been a long time since we've had a player with his talent and desire to win.