Young is runaway AP ROY

[Duckjake]

I just don't understand why the press gets so enamoured with qb's who can run.

They get enamored with QB's who win (and especially those who win in dramatic fashion). Just like fans do, or used to before fantasy football turned everyone into a stats geek.

Look at Terry Bradshaw: 51.9% career completion rate. Only 2 more TD's than INT's. Had the support of one the best defenses of their time. And he's in the hall of fame.

 

[moklerman]

Just like fans do, or used to before fantasy football turned everyone into a stats geek.

Examining his statistics, especially to comapre him to his contemporaries, is a perfectly valid approach to this in my opinion. Add to that, I'm not basing my opinion on statistics alone as I think that the Tennessee defense is more deserving of credit in that team's win streak.

Using Terry Bradshaw as an example of why you can't just look at stat's isn't comparable either. Use just about any stat's from a modern day qb and they would be hall of fame numbers if they were posted 20+ years ago. 4,000 yards passing meant something in 1969 when Joe Willie did it. Heck, even in '82 when Fouts was the 2nd one to do it it meant something. Today, it means very little.

However, when you look at many of the measurables of Vince Young compared to the other qb's in the league, he doesn't really stack up. Like I said, I would say that Leinart's numbers are very comparable to Vince Young's and he didn't even get a vote as far as I know. So, the ROY basically has nothing to do with statistics if that's the case and "he just win's" is total BS in my opinion. Teams win. Period. End of story. Young has made a few highlight reel plays but his team was tied or trailing in those situations in part because of the pedestrian numbers he put up during the other parts of the game.

51% completion and a 66 rating would merit "he's got a lot of work to do" if not for the hype surrounding Young. Once the league decides that it won't give him the opportunity to run free, how spectacular will a less athletic Michael Vick really be?

 

[Duckjake]

Examining his statistics, especially to comapre him to his contemporaries, is a perfectly valid approach to this in my opinion. Add to that, I'm not basing my opinion on statistics alone as I think that the Tennessee defense is more deserving of credit in that team's win streak.

Using Terry Bradshaw as an example of why you can't just look at stat's isn't comparable either. Use just about any stat's from a modern day qb and they would be hall of fame numbers if they were posted 20+ years ago. 4,000 yards passing meant something in 1969 when Joe Willie did it. Heck, even in '82 when Fouts was the 2nd one to do it it meant something. Today, it means very little.

However, when you look at many of the measurables of Vince Young compared to the other qb's in the league, he doesn't really stack up. Like I said, I would say that Leinart's numbers are very comparable to Vince Young's and he didn't even get a vote as far as I know. So, the ROY basically has nothing to do with statistics if that's the case and "he just win's" is total BS in my opinion. Teams win. Period. End of story. Young has made a few highlight reel plays but his team was tied or trailing in those situations in part because of the pedestrian numbers he put up during the other parts of the game.

51% completion and a 66 rating would merit "he's got a lot of work to do" if not for the hype surrounding Young. Once the league decides that it won't give him the opportunity to run free, how spectacular will a less athletic Michael Vick really be?

Well that's just your feeling and is perfectly valid. However a lot of people, especially those who don't see a lot of games but just highlights, don't feel that way. They credit individuals. The NBA has geared their league, for better or worse, to that premise. Superstars instead of Super teams. To take your "Teams win" to an end there really shouldn't be any individual awards at all.

The Bradshaw reference had nothing to do with stats other than to use them to show he wasn't a really top notch passer. (The key stat I posted was his completion % not yards). He and his team won big and he's in the HOF because of it. If he'd played for the Cardinals his name would never have been mentioned for the Hall.

As for the league deciding to deny Young the opportunity to run free why didn't they do that this year? Everybody knew he couldn't pass well. Because what Vince does is take the same opportunity a QB like Leinart does to run and instead of getting 6 yards and sliding Young gets 30 and a TD.

Finally, my statement about everyone being stats geeks goes to people no longer caring who won or lost but how many yards the guys on their fantasy team picked up.

 

[blindseyed]

Young won 7 in a row on a bad team.

And once every NFL teams watches tapes in the off-season and figure him out as pretty much one-dimensional, he'll be Mike Vick part 2

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

If i'm starting a team, i'll take Leinart over Young every time. I agree with Moklerman. Tennessee's wins were of a fluke nature and a good defense. Young deserves some credit but i wouldn't have voted him in my top 3. Colston, Jones-Drew,Marcus McNeil would all get my vote over Young.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

Tennessee's defense is more responsible for it's late season winning streak than anything the offense did.

I think that the Tennessee defense is more deserving of credit in that team's win streak.

Since you want to bring statistics into this:

Tennessee Titans Defensive Stats:
Scoring Defense - 31st in the NFL
Total Defense - 32nd in the NFL

VY won the MVP not because of the poor defense (reference the Dave McGinnis effect) but because he was a marginal passer and an outstanding runner; which combined makes him a very dangerous offensive weapon. Much moreso than Marques Colston and MoJo who also should be congratulated for outstanding years. The only reason people criticize Mike Vick and VY in spite of their annual postseason awards and team accolades is because they do not fit into the traditional QB mold. It's so transparent it's sad.

 

[ajcardfan]

And once every NFL teams watches tapes in the off-season and figure him out as pretty much one-dimensional, he'll be Mike Vick part 2

Vince Young has one huge advantage over Vick, that's his height. If you can pin Vick into the pocket his 6'0'' height limits his vision. (I think he's probably shorter than that even.) Young can still make plays from the pocket, he is the same as Leinart 6'5".

Plus, Young seems to be more of a leader than Vick. His teammates in college and the pros love the guy.

I've said it since Young was a junior. I've seen nothing to indicate he will not be a superstar in the NFL. In fact, he's a good year or two ahead of schedule in my mind.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

And once every NFL teams watches tapes in the off-season and figure him out as pretty much one-dimensional, he'll be Mike Vick part 2

Yeah, NFL teams only watch tape on the offseason. If VY was that one-dimensional teams would have figured him out by his second start.

And Mike Vick really has not been figured out, he's essentially the same player now that he has always been if you look at the numbers.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

Since you want to bring statistics into this:

Tennessee Titans Defensive Stats:
Scoring Defense - 31st in the NFL
Total Defense - 32nd in the NFL

VY won the MVP not because of the poor defense (reference the Dave McGinnis effect) but because he was a marginal passer and an outstanding runner; which combined makes him a very dangerous offensive weapon. Much moreso than Marques Colston and MoJo who also should be congratulated for outstanding years. The only reason people criticize Mike Vick and VY in spite of their annual postseason awards and team accolades is because they do not fit into the traditional QB mold. It's so transparent it's sad.

But they also scored a bunch on special teams. The reason people don't like Vick or Young is because QB's are usually based on their ability to throw the ball and those guys are lacking in that area. If they couldn't run they would never line up behind center.

 

[blindseyed]

Yeah, NFL teams only watch tape on the offseason. If VY was that one-dimensional teams would have figured him out by his second start.

And Mike Vick really has not been figured out, he's essentially the same player now that he has always been if you look at the numbers.

You knew exactly what I meant ...teams now have enough game film on him to see what his habits are and in the off-season they'll start figuring some things out. I'm not saying he's a bad QB, I am saying someone else (Colston or Drew) shoud have gotten the ROY.

 

[Duckjake]

You knew exactly what I meant ...teams now have enough game film on him to see what his habits are and in the off-season they'll start figuring some things out. I'm not saying he's a bad QB, I am saying someone else (Colston or Drew) shoud have gotten the ROY.

The only thing I can think of would be to go to the Vince Young cover 4 where you take out your CB's and play 4 safeties. Vince simply runs over or through the smaller CB's and the Titans utilize their TE's more than most so the slower safeties wouldn't hurt you as much. You can't use an extra LBer because VY will outrun most of them.

Of course you can't really game plan to shut down the game's best athletes. Nobody learned how to stop Walter Payton, Jerry Rice, or Dan Marino, and they still can't stop guys like Marvin Harrison.

 

[LoyaltyisaCurse]

Huh? A rookie receiver with 70 receptions, 1038 yards and 8 TDs doesn't even "remotely deserve it"? I'm not saying that VY doesn't deserve it but saying that Colston isn't even close is ********.

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Totally agree and he missed 2 or 3 games, it was even more impressive considering he was almost "Mr. Irrelevant"...

 

[conraddobler]

I'm not impressed.

He can run, still let's see how this plays out over a few years before annointing the guy.

 

[moklerman]

The only reason people criticize Mike Vick and VY in spite of their annual postseason awards and team accolades is because they do not fit into the traditional QB mold. It's so transparent it's sad.

There's a big difference between a good NFL qb and a good athlete. I think there are plenty of reasons to criticize a player like Vick. Or Kordell or many others. They are great athletes who weren't particularly good NFL qb's. I just tire of the "stat's don't matter, he just wins" argument. Vick can't consistatnly hit the broad side of a barn with his passes and is more concerned with breaking the rushing record for a qb than winning games and saving his coach's job. Are Vick and Young popular? Sure, very much so. But please don't argue that they're good qb's and people can't see it because they don't fit the mold.

And Mike Vick really has not been figured out, he's essentially the same player now that he has always been if you look at the numbers.

At his best and when he manages to stay healthy, he's good for around 22 td's which don't equate to Atlanta winning games. Add to that he averages more per rushing attempt than he does per passing attempt. I think it's become fairly evident that teams are very willing to let Vick run around a little while Atlanta loses the game. A very marketable novelty. Not a good NFL qb.

 

[LoyaltyisaCurse]

I've been impressed with Young, I just think Colston deserved it...

Young is a winner and a leader and has proved it on the field already...he still learning the pro game, but his instincts and leadership are un teachable.

 

[Redsz]

I've been impressed with Young, I just think Colston deserved it...

Young is a winner and a leader and has proved it on the field already...he still learning the pro game, but his instincts and leadership are un teachable.

Agreed, Loyalty. He just has the intangibles and instincts that can't be taught. Matt is the same way.

 

[conraddobler]

I've been impressed with Young, I just think Colston deserved it...

Young is a winner and a leader and has proved it on the field already...he still learning the pro game, but his instincts and leadership are un teachable.

He's done better than I expected, if we hire Chow we may end up dooming him to destruction, the most impressive thing to me is how he was used and in fact how he was coached, specifically how he was not put in positions to fail. This is amazing only when you consider how much of a project in the pro game he was deemed to be, there is no doubt whatever Chow did with him it was as good as any coaching job in the NFL.

Chow to me on that one thing is hugely impressive, they have almost nothing on that side of the ball compared to us and yet they won games with a defense as bad or worse than ours.

Hire Chow.

 

[Gambit]

They get enamored with QB's who win (and especially those who win in dramatic fashion). Just like fans do, or used to before fantasy football turned everyone into a stats geek.

Look at Terry Bradshaw: 51.9% career completion rate. Only 2 more TD's than INT's. Had the support of one the best defenses of their time. And he's in the hall of fame.

He shouldn't be. Neither should Broadway Joe.

VY is way better than I'd thought he be, and deserves this award, but the Tennessee Titans, and not Vince Young, win. He helped them, but don't put him above the team.

 

[SeaChicken]

Jones-Drew almost gained 1000 yards and 13 TD's for Jacksonville. He deserved to be considered ROY.

Absolutely.

 

[Duckjake]

He shouldn't be. Neither should Broadway Joe.

VY is way better than I'd thought he be, and deserves this award, but the Tennessee Titans, and not Vince Young, win. He helped them, but don't put him above the team.

Unfortuantely that's what fans do.

In Young's case though I've seen several quotes from people close to the situation that he has made a real difference in the entire attitude of the football team. I keep hoping that Q will eventually have that effect on the Cardinals.