Your Arizona Cardinals now hold the 16th pick in the 2025 NFL Draft

[HairZach]

the thing about running 12 personnel -- It **should have** created some opportunities for shots down the field

you have a max protect concept with two TEs, and, Defenses **should** have responded with a single high safety

yet, i cant remember one shot play from that formation. weird

We had a good amount of shot plays plays to Rondale Moore last year. I think the issue is that with Moore gone we don't have another receiver with that kind of speed. I think we tried with Marvin but he wasn't able to separate. His route tree early on makes it seem like shot plays were supposed to be a bigger part of the offense.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Based on what? His last games didn’t support that contention.

Nor does Humphries having made a Pro Bowl (2021) while Paris hasn’t come close to any kind of award, even an All-Rookie team… even though he was the first OT taken in his class.

 

[kerouac9]

But you said at least MO didn't screw up the MHJ pick I think on draft day. You are fired up man.

We should expect the professionals to outperform a fan.

We had a good amount of shot plays plays to Rondale Moore last year. I think the issue is that with Moore gone we don't have another receiver with that kind of speed. I think we tried with Marvin but he wasn't able to separate. His route tree early on makes it seem like shot plays were supposed to be a bigger part of the offense.

Rondale Moore had 56 targets with an ADoT or 5.2. Less than under Kliff the year before.

 

[WisconsinCard]

How about we start with the fact that Bowers was already superior this year not just in stats but by the eye test as well.

Throw in a pick this year on top of Bowers rookie season blowing MHJ away and I’d like to see the argument made in favor of MHJ alone at this point.

Wasn't it you that said you didn't want to trade down for a different player than MHJ and some "magic beans"?

 

[oaken1]

We play 12 or 13 nearly 50% of the time and would quite often send multiple TEs on routes, with Bowers that could have been increased. Considering Bowers regularly smokes good CBs downfield, something MHJ didn't do this season, I think he would have gotten his fair share of targets. Bowers is a much better player and there is plenty of room in our offense for him.

Just think of it this way. For every individual play, If you took MHJ off the field and put Bowers on instead, the play becomes a lot more dangerous, both running and passing.

Our qb has trust issues. Good chance Bowers wouldn't have had 50 targets in our offense.

 

[netsnjkidd]

Wasn't it you that said you didn't want to trade down for a different player than MHJ and some "magic beans"?

Alot of people doing revisionist history. Now everybody didn't want Marv. As soon as he gets going next season it will change again

 

[Cheesebeef]

Wasn't it you that said you didn't want to trade down for a different player than MHJ and some "magic beans"?

Yup and I might have been wrong about MHJ. What’s your point? Is it that because I, a fan was wrong, that means GM making millions is free from criticism for making the same mistake?

 

[WisconsinCard]

Yup and I might have been wrong about MHJ. What’s your point? Is it that because I, a fan was wrong, that means GM making millions is free from criticism for making the same mistake?

No I'm saying your fired up about something that you wanted to happen. That's is all.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Alot of people doing revisionist history. Now everybody didn't want Marv. As soon as he gets going next season it will change again

Nah… you’re moving the goalposts. Right now, we just don’t know if he was the right pick because he was relatively underwhelming considering hype, first round rookie WR exploding on the scene in the modern era of football and being considerably outplayed by 4 rookie receiving options after year 1.

I still think he’ll be good. I’m just not sure he has ELITE in him and at the 4th pick, elite players are what good GMs come away with.

 

[Cheesebeef]

No I'm saying your fired up about something that you wanted to happen. That's is all.

I’m fired up? If you say so.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

No I'm saying your fired up about something that you wanted to happen. That's is all.

Eh, what we REALLY want to happen is for the professional gm to be good at his job. If it means he differs from non-football professional opinion, so be it. I might gnash my teeth at the time, but once proven wrong I would give him credit.

So, would you rather he just pick who you want or who he professionally thinks is right if the latter ends up being the right decision?

That’s why these call outs are stupid imo.

 

[WisconsinCard]

Eh, what we REALLY want to happen is for the professional gm to be good at his job. If it means he differs from non-football professional opinion, so be it. I might gnash my teeth at the time, but once proven wrong I would give him credit.

So, would you rather he just pick who you want or who he professionally thinks is right if the latter ends up being the right decision?

That’s why these call outs are stupid imo.

I want the professionals be the GM. I just thought it was ironic that someone would be bashing someone for doing something they wanted. That goes for anything not just a football draft.

 

[slanidrac16]

I want the professionals be the GM. I just thought it was ironic that someone would be bashing someone for doing something they wanted. That goes for anything not just a football draft.

1. He took the guy I wanted but the guy sucks and he should know better.
2. He took the guy and he sucks, but I wanted him too.

 

[Russ Smith]

PJJ was very much like Kyler this year, fell off a cliff after the bye. Unless he got hurt earlier than they told us he got hurt in week 15 and didn't play again after. So the knee injury doesn't explain how poorly he played in the 2 Seattle games and the Vikings game.

 

[TheCardFan]

Finishing 1st, 1st and 3rd in scoring offense those three years is pretty good.

How did they do the other years?

You do know that both TE's averaged 887 and 652 yards per season for those three years right? Is that what you want?

You also know that BB never spent a 1st round pick on a TE (Gronk was 2nd and Hernandez was 4th).

 

[WisconsinCard]

1. He took the guy I wanted but the guy sucks and he should know better.
2. He took the guy and he sucks, but I wanted him too.

Is that your take? That's not mine. I didn't mean to call anyone out.

 

[Harry]

PJJ was very much like Kyler this year, fell off a cliff after the bye. Unless he got hurt earlier than they told us he got hurt in week 15 and didn't play again after. So the knee injury doesn't explain how poorly he played in the 2 Seattle games and the Vikings game.

My info says he played hurt

 

[netsnjkidd]

Nah… you’re moving the goalposts. Right now, we just don’t know if he was the right pick because he was relatively underwhelming considering hype, first round rookie WR exploding on the scene in the modern era of football and being considerably outplayed by 4 rookie receiving options after year 1.

I still think he’ll be good. I’m just not sure he has ELITE in him and at the 4th pick, elite players are what good GMs come away with.

I hear you he was expected to explode. I just would wait more than year to see if he can't be elite everyone has different development

 

[BACH]

How about we start with the fact that Bowers was already superior this year not just in stats but by the eye test as well.

Throw in a pick this year on top of Bowers rookie season blowing MHJ away and I’d like to see the argument made in favor of MHJ alone at this point.

Okay, that is your opinion.

Any rookie that leads his position in stats and ranks 3rd in pff is clearly a great pick.

But I do not think it's that simple.

1. We cannot make this analysis after year 1 IMO. Nothing indicates that MHJ will not be great. All we know is that MHJ wasn't as ready as everyone expected and couldn't live up to the unrealistic hype. We'll only know after year 3. I agree Bowers certainly passed the eyetest better, but MHJ did play to just below/pro-bowl level per pff.

2. You cannot compare stats. Bowers was the #1 receiving weapon in a passing offense. MHJ was the #2 receiving weapon in a rushing offense. And how much garbage time did Bowers play compared to MHJ. A LOT!

3. Both were considered the greatest talent at their position in 10 years. But there is positional value to consider. MHJ plays the #4 most valuable position in the NFL. Bowers plays the 8th most valuable position. Even if MHJ had not been the pick, Bowers would not have been it.

4. Team needs. Cardinals already had a top 3 TE in the league. The WR room was poor. No way this wasn't the right pick for Monti at the time.

5. Hindsight is 20/20.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Okay, that is your opinion.

Any rookie that leads his position in stats and ranks 3rd in pff is clearly a great pick.

But I do not think it's that simple.

1. We cannot make this analysis after year 1 IMO. Nothing indicates that MHJ will not be great.

And nothing indicates he will be. Bowers is ALREADY great.

All we know is that MHJ wasn't as ready as everyone expected and couldn't live up to the unrealistic hype. We'll only know after year 3. I agree Bowers certainly passed the eyetest better,

Lol… passed the eye test? He passed EVERY TEST. Statiscal, rookie honors, Pro Bowl honors.

Oh yeah… and FIRST TEAM ALL-PRO.

but MHJ did play to just below/pro-bowl level per pff.

This is not a real argument. His drops, his lack of focus, his mid stats AND the eye say he wasn’t even close to pro bowl level. That is a joke. He ranks in the 30s for WRs in yards. That’s a just below Pro Bowl WR? Come on man.

I should just stop reading here after that laughable argument point, but I’m bored so let’s carry on.

2. You cannot compare stats. Bowers was the #1 receiving weapon in a passing offense.

No… YOU can not compare stats because to do so shows the Grand Canyon difference between the two players and are you kidding me? Calling the Raiders a “passing” offense is an even bigger joke. He had absolutely TERRIBLE QBs throwing the ball, he was the ONLY option, faced constant double teams and STILL broke out as arguably the best TE in the game… as a rookie.

MHJ was the #2 receiving weapon in a rushing offense. And how much garbage time did Bowers play compared to MHJ. A LOT!

Right… so MJH saw LESS coverage than Bowers and still couldn’t get open at near the same rates.

As for your “garbage” point… it’s garbage also. Unless you want to go back and claim Fitz or Boldin’s yards were garbage all those years we were bad.

3. Both were considered the greatest talent at their position in 10 years. But there is positional value to consider. MHJ plays the #4 most valuable position in the NFL. Bowers plays the 8th most valuable position. Even if MHJ had not been the pick, Bowers would not have been it.

4. Team needs. Cardinals already had a top 3 TE in the league. The WR room was poor. No way this wasn't the right pick for Monti at the time.

Wait… on one hand you say in point 1 that we can’t make the analysis after 1 year yet NO WAY THIS WASNT THE RIGHT PICK? Well, you just violated your own argument.

5. Hindsight is 20/20.

Newsflash BACH… hindsight is how GMs are judged! Why? Because you can actually see their decisions play out on the field. Weird shocking concept!

 

[GatorAZ]

Bowers with an adequate QB is Gronk. The numbers he put up with defenses solely focused on stopping him was worthy of 1st team all pro.

 

[slanidrac16]

Is that your take? That's not mine. I didn't mean to call anyone out.

Not at all WC. Just a lot of posters insist on 20/20 hindsight.
You Da Man!

 

[kerouac9]

I’m not mad about MHJ but you’re losing the narrative if you find yourself saying he was playing at a near pro-bowl level.

He was a distant third among his rookie class. Let’s keep perspective here.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I’m not mad about MHJ but you’re losing the narrative if you find yourself saying he was playing at a near pro-bowl level.

He was a distant third among his rookie class. Let’s keep perspective here.

That was a mind-boggling statement.

 

[Chopper0080]

Situations do matter and considering we run more multiple TE looks than probably 2/3s of the rest of the league and that we have a QB who loves throwing to TEs more than anything else, somehow saying Bowers would have 50 less catches shows a fundamental misunderstanding of exactly the situation our offense plays in..

I am backing slanidrac on this one. I think you get a similar production outcome at best with Bowers vs MHJ.