Suns 2024-2025 Season Discussions

[Chaplin]

OK. that doesn't mean much. We have seen small ball play out before. Is it fun? Sure. Also, height doesn't always determine best position. Skill set is a huge factor.

What do you mean it doesn't mean much? You said small ball isn't successful. The Bucks won the whole thing.

 

[Covert Rain]

What do you mean it doesn't mean much? You said small ball isn't successful. The Bucks won the whole thing.

How many teams out of how many teams can do this? Just like Golden State is one of the few teams that can play the 3 like it does the 2. There are some unicorn situations in this league. How many small ball teams have won a title in the last 20 years compared to teams playing a more traditional lineup (not talking old school non-flexible situations)? Again, not saying that teams don't play oddball lineups to spark situationally in games.

 

[somethingshesaid]

Referencing Covert's belief that small ball doesn't ultimately work, which I reluctantly agree with, I am thinking that the best test of small ball in Suns playoff history is that Suns-Supersonics series in the late nineties, which used a Jason Kidd-Kevin Johnson backcourt. The Suns lost that series despite one of the most memorable shots in Suns history.

 

[Chaplin]

How many teams out of how many teams can do this? Just like Golden State is one of the few teams that can play the 3 like it does the 2. There are some unicorn situations in this league. How many small ball teams have won a title in the last 20 years compared to teams playing a more traditional lineup? Again, not saying that teams don't play oddball lineups to spark situationaly in games.

At this point it doesn't matter -- there is a precedent for this kind of lineup to be successful. The Bucks did it, technically we were very successful in the regular season last year (and it's not a stretch to say us losing in the playoffs was not because of small ball).

People are acting like Beal starting is going to completely derail our entire season. Doesn't matter who starts, it only matters who finishes. Suns aren't going to bench Beal. That's it.

 

[Covert Rain]

At this point it doesn't matter -- there is a precedent for this kind of lineup to be successful. The Bucks did it, technically we were very successful in the regular season last year (and it's not a stretch to say us losing in the playoffs was not because of small ball).

People are acting like Beal starting is going to completely derail our entire season. Doesn't matter who starts, it only matters who finishes. Suns aren't going to bench Beal. That's it.

Yeah but Chap everybody said the same thing about Golden State's style of play when Steph exploded. There is only one Steph Curry. Lot's of teams tried when Curry broke out and very very few could mimic that success. That's not a precedent. Again, I agree with you. They will not bench Beal but if it ultimately hurts the team we deserve the results. Money talks in the NBA.

 

[Covert Rain]

P.S. I will make the same argument with 7 seconds or less. After the Suns had some success there was a bunch of teams that tried and fell flat on their collective faces.

 

[Chaplin]

Yeah but Chap everybody said the same thing about Golden State's style of play when Steph exploded. There is only one Steph Curry. Lot's of teams tried when Curry broke out and very very few could mimic that success. That's not a precedent. Again, I agree with you. They will not bench Beal but if it ultimately hurts the team we deserve the results. Money talks in the NBA.

Hard to argue with your last sentence, but I think it's difficult to come up with strong reasons to bench him outside of, "most times it doesn't work". And as far as I'm concerned, I don't much care about the starting lineup anyway. I like having the big 3 on the court at the same time and want to see how that pans out -- and with a true point guard? All 3 of those guys must be salivating.

 

[Covert Rain]

Hard to argue with your last sentence, but I think it's difficult to come up with strong reasons to bench him outside of, "most times it doesn't work". And as far as I'm concerned, I don't much care about the starting lineup anyway. I like having the big 3 on the court at the same time and want to see how that pans out -- and with a true point guard? All 3 of those guys must be salivating.

I just think it makes us too small and puts us at a huge disadvantage defensively. Also, with all of our bench woes last season I think it would help us shore up what killed us last season was long stretches of no scoring by our bench. Don't get me wrong. Situationally, like in crunch time? I like them all out there too.

By the way, doesn't this feel different from last season? LOL. We are talking about spreading the wealth so to speak. Last year it felt more like taking the last bit of jelly and trying to spread it out into 5 sandwiches. HA!

 

[Chaplin]

I just think it makes us too small and puts us at a huge disadvantage defensively. Also, with all of our bench woes last season I think it would help us shore up what killed us last season was long stretches of no scoring by our bench. Don't get me wrong. Situationally, like in crunch time? I like them all out there too.

By the way, doesn't this feel different from last season? LOL. We are talking about spreading the wealth so to speak. Last year it felt more like taking the last bit of jelly and trying to spread it out into 5 sandwiches. HA!

Yeah -- last summer though there was some optimism, I myself was thrillled that we got Yuta and KBD. That was definitely a disappointment. But there does seem to be something different -- now that we basically have the best 2 PG at protecting the ball in the game, along with a competent backup center. Not to mention the changes Nurk has made so far in the offseason and a training camp with Royce O'Neal, should be fun. I know a lot of people don't like him right now, but having both Grayson Allen and Damian Lee could give us 2 of the best 3 point shooters in the game right now. AND we have 2 rookies after not having any rookies to speak of since DA, and we know how THAT turned out.

And my biggest cause for excitement -- Mike Budenholzer. There's a lot to be cautiously optimistic about.

 

[JCSunsfan]

No one considers Book a wing. No one.

I do. 2-3's are wings to me. They often play interchangeably.

 

[Phrazbit]

LOL

Here we go. Guess we shouldn't have put him on Zion last year then, even though he did a good job.

What? Who are you claiming defended Zion well? And what does that have to do with anything? Zion is a power forward, and his numbers against us were better than his season averages anyway.

I think it would make for better defense if Beal came off the bench, it would also give the bench a good primary scoring option. It would also hopefully preserve Beals legs to not log heavy minutes.

 

[Chaplin]

What? Who are you claiming defended Zion well? And what does that have to do with anything? Zion is a power forward, and his numbers against us were better than his season averages anyway.

I think it would make for better defense if Beal came off the bench, it would also give the bench a good primary scoring option. It would also hopefully preserve Beals legs to not log heavy minutes.

Bradley freaking Beal. Yes, he guarded Zion late in the season last year.

 

[Phrazbit]

Bradley freaking Beal. Yes, he guarded Zion late in the season last year.

And held him to… above his season averages on very efficient stats…

Yippie.

Again, it would be helpful for the bench to have Beal on it, it would probably be better for Beal’s health to play less and I think the starters would match up better defensively with most teams with ONeale at forward.

 

[Phrazbit]

The Bucks with Giannis, Tucker and Brook Lopez being “small ball” is a wild take.

 

[Covert Rain]

And my biggest cause for excitement -- Mike Budenholzer. There's a lot to be cautiously optimistic about.

Yeah, Mike actually might be our biggest acquisition of the offseason.

 

[Suns_fan69]

The Bucks with Giannis, Tucker and Brook Lopez being “small ball” is a wild take.

Yeah, ignoring roles, they had a starting lineup of:
6' 4"
6' 5"
6' 7"
6' 11"
7' 1"

That's a pretty conventional lineup on defense, if not on the bigger side.

Compared to Phoenix who would be rolling out:
6' 1"
6' 4"
6' 6"
6' 11"
7' 0"

 

[Phrazbit]

Yeah, ignoring roles, they had a starting lineup of:
6' 4"
6' 5"
6' 7"
6' 11"
7' 1"

That's a pretty conventional lineup on defense, if not on the bigger side.

Compared to Phoenix who would be rolling out:
6' 1"
6' 4"
6' 6"
6' 11"
7' 0"

Their front court is 2 gigantic dudes who made 1st team all-defense and the shortest guy of the three is on the court purely for his physical defense.

 

[Yuma]

I think it was more about finding a tertiary piece that was similar in skillset to Nurk and Plumlee. At the same time he's younger and more athletic than those guys too, oh and he's a local product as well.

I would say he does mirror those guys.

 

[Chaplin]

You guys are nuts being so dependent on a few inches.

 

[Phrazbit]

You guys are nuts being so dependent on a few inches.

I honestly don't care about the height, it's more about play style.

 

[clyde2tw]

Beal is stronger than Book, so he is the designated SF in our starting lineup. Our best Zion defender last year was Okogie, who got almost no court time in the 2nd half of season. 1-on-1, nobody can beat Okogie off dribble consistently; off screens being a different story.

 

[Yuma]

You guys are nuts being so dependent on a few inches.

That's what she said.....

 

[Mainstreet]

The Suns are a better team than last season until proven otherwise with the addition of Tyus Jones, Monte Morris, Mason Plumlee and head coach Mike Budenholzer.

Plus, they are positioned for a trade or roster addition if need be before the trade deadline.

 

[Phrazbit]

The Suns are a better team than last season until proven otherwise with the addition of Tyus Jones, Monte Morris, Mason Plumlee and head coach Mike Budenholzer.

Plus, they are positioned for a trade or roster addition if need be before the trade deadline.

I do, absolutely, think that they're a better constructed team than last season. More well rounded and balanced, more proven depth.

The injury concerns are still there, given the history of a lot of these guys, we were actually rather fortunate last season, and I have serious concerns about the front court.But, if the important parts can avoid serious injury, I think this team should exceed last year's result.

For them to make the leap into real contention, coach Bud is going to have to have a real thumb on this roster and milk everything he can out of the unproven guys.

 

[Hoop Head]

At this point it doesn't matter -- there is a precedent for this kind of lineup to be successful. The Bucks did it, technically we were very successful in the regular season last year (and it's not a stretch to say us losing in the playoffs was not because of small ball).

People are acting like Beal starting is going to completely derail our entire season. Doesn't matter who starts, it only matters who finishes. Suns aren't going to bench Beal. That's it.

The Bucks were not small. 7' Giannis, 7' Brook Lopez, and 7' Bobby Portis aren't the make up of a small ball team. 6'4" Jrue Holiday at PG, and 6'7" or 6'8" Khris Middleton out there usually isn't small. PJ Tucker's presence at SF doesn't make them small as a whole.