Nets @ Suns Wednesday game thread, November 27th, 2024

[leclerc]

Suns 1-8 to start 3rd quarter. Down by 14. Get these chumps off the court, yes, I'm talking about the Big Three with Nurk dog and Tyus. If they don't compete and give effort, put their fat lazy asses on the bench and let the subs finish the quarter.

 

[leclerc]

No heart this year either. Nets is a better team than the Suns. Who would have known. Nets should be higher favorites to go far in the playoffs. Suns is headed for another first round exit. Oh well, as long as everyone is getting paid.

 

[leclerc]

They're better than last year, but deep down they have the same fatal flaws.

They're not nearly as good as they think they are. As a result they don't play hungry, they don't take "lesser" opponents seriously.

They're extremely injury prone. I cannot fathom this team making it through the 8 week playoff grind with all these glass cannons staying upright, we can hardly make it through 4 games.

This all season long. I have my doubts Bud can make them change their mindset. I am in favor of trading everyone except the rookies.

 

[BirdGangThing]

i see what's happening - bud does too - nba is getting really fast again up and down the court - players defending the 3 and streaking down the court before the shooter lands - athleticism and agility and quickness are disrupting the status quo

we're fine in our half court defense when we're set and moving but the fast breaks due to turnovers and outlet passes and not getting back on defense are embarrassing - in short - we aren't keeping up for stretches and it's killing us imo - the other teams wide open 3s are too

nurk - nurk nurk nurk - when he looks good it's usually because the other team isn't playing fast - bud has been learning to yank him when the game picks up because sprinting is not the nurkmeister's strong suit - being strong was and it's like he's even lost some of that

but back to bud - he see's it all and is doing his best to incorporate youth and speed into our starting line up and bench - you know who loves running up and down the court like a track meet? dunn and oso aka the future but the future comes with growing pain

we're never going to win a championship - ive come to terms with this years ago through self induced psychedelic therapy - the fungus told me to let it go - but im going to keep watching because i think we have a great mix of youth and age - providing the age can stay on the main stage consistently

 

[Mainstreet]

This all season long. I have my doubts Bud can make them change their mindset. I am in favor of trading everyone except the rookies.

Unless Mat Ishbia changes his mind about extending Durant, I doubt we see any major roster changes with the Suns, other than perhaps strengthening the 4/5 position.

This team needs a serious dose of passion and I'm not sure if they have that in them. This team is too aloof for my liking.

I can't help but wonder how they would play under Nets head coach, Jordi, but that bridge has already been crossed.

 

[Hoop Head]

I can't help but wonder how they would play under Nets head coach, Jordi, but that bridge has already been crossed.

This isn't a coaching problem. I think we'd look worse under a first time young HC like Jordi. Having Vogel and Bud get walked on and tuned out by players says enough, to me. This group needs split up. Shop KD and entertain offers for Booker as well. Whichever puts us a place to compete best, take it.

 

[Superbone]

This isn't a coaching problem. I think we'd look worse under a first time young HC like Jordi. Having Vogel and Bud get walked on and tuned out by players says enough, to me. This group needs split up. Shop KD and entertain offers for Booker as well. Whichever puts us a place to compete best, take it.

Yeah, it's a youth versus veteran thing, I think. Hard for a young coach to tell a bunch of veterans to lay it all out there every night and put in more effort. Plus, these experienced guys know to save it for the playoffs. You can't go hard all 82 regular season games unless you are a young upstart team not even expected to make the playoffs.

Having said that, I think our guys could put out more effort and they got embarrassed the other night. I didn't see frantic defense until the last few plays of the game when it was already over.

 

[Mainstreet]

This isn't a coaching problem. I think we'd look worse under a first time young HC like Jordi. Having Vogel and Bud get walked on and tuned out by players says enough, to me. This group needs split up. Shop KD and entertain offers for Booker as well. Whichever puts us a place to compete best, take it.

I don't disagree, however, the Suns want to extend Kevin Durant for two more seasons from the last information I've read.

It will be interesting to see if Mat Ishbia is willing to change directions by breaking up the core.

 

[Mainstreet]

Yeah, it's a youth versus veteran thing, I think. Hard for a young coach to tell a bunch of veterans to lay it all out there every night and put in more effort. Plus, these experienced guys know to save it for the playoffs. You can't go hard all 82 regular season games unless you are a young upstart team not even expected to make the playoffs.

Having said that, I think our guys could put out more effort and they got embarrassed the other night. I didn't see frantic defense until the last few plays of the game when it was already over.

This is a Suns team that has lost 7 out of their last 9 games.

I still see playoff game 7 against the Mavericks swimming around in my head.

It begs the question, what hasn't changed and remains the same?

 

[1982baskets]

Disagree. The problem with Vogel was the players refusing to listen to or respect him, and that's more their fault. An adequate PG wouldn't have caused their attitudes to all change.

The team needs/needed leadership. Vogel was a proven elite defensive coach who made a bad Suns defensive team that had many injuries play pretty good defense. There was never ever any time for the big 3 to develop some chemistry and continuity and then they played a very good Wolves team that was the best defensive team in the NBA. Just looking at the stats though, the Suns didn't have the big 3 for more than 30 games last season. Despite that they won 49 games. Their defensive rating was 13 in the league, offense rating was 9. That is top 14 defense and top 10 offense. However they drew a very tough first round match up. Wolves beat the Nuggets last season too.

Now this year with Mike, we're at the same 9 spot on offense rating. We've slipped to 21 on defense. Mike brings in some good schemes on offense, overall though the level of the team has been same or even a bit worse, in my opinion.

Vogel was a pretty good coach. He did not even have a point guard or the sort of defensive players he had success with in LA or Indiana. The Suns got a legit point guard after he left in Tyus. The roster was not well structured around the big 3.

Now the Suns are paying 2 coaches a combined 17 million a year, to both coach at the same level. It was very obvious to me, the players and GM Jones saved their behinds by blaming the coach. When you have a novice rich owner like Matt, he probably bought into that. Much easier to avoid the truth by blaming an easy target that you can replace.

Now the reality is setting in. Any coach needs:

Beal/Durant healthy next to Book to develop some continuity for the team.
Better defensive players.
A leader on the team

Suns should have never traded for Beal. It was a massive mistake.

 

[Mainstreet]

The team needs/needed leadership. Vogel was a proven elite defensive coach who made a bad Suns defensive team that had many injuries play pretty good defense. There was never ever any time for the big 3 to develop some chemistry and continuity and then they played a very good Wolves team that was the best defensive team in the NBA. Just looking at the stats though, the Suns didn't have the big 3 for more than 30 games last season. Despite that they won 49 games. Their defensive rating was 13 in the league, offense rating was 9. That is top 14 defense and top 10 offense. However they drew a very tough first round match up. Wolves beat the Nuggets last season too.

Now this year with Mike, we're at the same 9 spot on offense rating. We've slipped to 21 on defense. Mike brings in some good schemes on offense, overall though the level of the team has been same or even a bit worse, in my opinion.

Vogel was a pretty good coach. He did not even have a point guard or the sort of defensive players he had success with in LA or Indiana. The Suns got a legit point guard after he left in Tyus. The roster was not well structured around the big 3.

Now the Suns are paying 2 coaches a combined 17 million a year, to both coach at the same level. It was very obvious to me, the players and GM Jones saved their behinds by blaming the coach. When you have a novice rich owner like Matt, he probably bought into that. Much easier to avoid the truth by blaming an easy target that you can replace.

Now the reality is setting in. Any coach needs:

Beal/Durant healthy next to Book to develop some continuity for the team.
Better defensive players.
A leader on the team

Suns should have never traded for Beal. It was a massive mistake.

Here is the way I look at it.

The Suns gave up too much for Durant. That was the biggest mistake.

Signing Beal was like a drowning man grabbing at straw to hold onto.

Trading Ayton without a satisfactory replacement completed the trifecta. Did the Suns not think about the injury factor?

The Suns fixed the hole at point guard. They haven't fixed the hole in the middle. Coaches can only do so much.

We agree, the Suns need a leader or minimally someone that can bring some toughness to the team. They have to hope toughness is enough because I don't see any leaders that are available. Hopefully they can find someone in the trade market that fills this role at the 4/5, the team develops some chemistry and that is enough.

Also, it would be nice if the team didn't behave like they are on a cruise for the rest of the season and the playoffs.

 

[BirdGangThing]

we were already over on payroll with cp3 who we somehow magically and gratefully traded to get beal - it was one of the best trades in recent suns history - but my head just fell off and rolled across the living room floor while reading this blasphemy - yeah he's been injured - like a lot - does anybody remember cp3? brush up against the man and he's out for a week - real phantom injuries not stepping on other's feet or taking hard falls - both of which happen when you play hard

 

[1982baskets]

Durant has only won going to places that already had established a winning situation. State, he went to a team that already won a title, replaced a much weaker starter than him and they won 2 out of 3 while Curry/Dray/Klay were all in their primes.

Matt's a lunatic if he thinks that's the situation he has here. He talks it up like that but the reality is only Booker is in his prime, and Booker is closer to prime Klay level than he is prime Curry. I love Book, Suns pick and baby.

So you hire Vogel who is known for defense and you give him Beal, who is a very injury prone declining star, no point guard, not even a backup level point guard (last year's PG situation was a joke), you lack depth with the Beal and Durant trades, then you toss him for Mike Bud hoping that coaching was the problem. I even remember Matt talking about this at the season's end. We will evaluate and see what is the situation - is it the system we're running, the players etc. He blamed it on the system. It was the players and specifically his own (and his GMs) moves that killed the depth and balance of the team.

In a way they did Vogel a big favour dude's gonna sit and get paid for 4 more years. It wasn't some small 3 year deal. The team gave him a big contract. Then gave Bud an even bigger 5 year deal. Sure maybe by playoffs the team will swing a few moves and maybe catch some good match ups and advance past 1-2 rounds. However the root issue will remain. This is not a championship level core and this isn't a well built team. Matt needs to accept that and make the changes to the dudes who build the team and the players.

 

[1982baskets]

we were already over on payroll with cp3 who we somehow magically and gratefully traded to get beal - it was one of the best trades in recent suns history - but my head just fell off and rolled across the living room floor while reading this blasphemy - yeah he's been injured - like a lot - does anybody remember cp3? brush up against the man and he's out for a week - real phantom injuries not stepping on other's feet or taking hard falls - both of which happen when you play hard

Beal was traded essentially for Jordan Poole. The Wizards eventually swapped CP3 for Poole. I'm not saying Poole is a better player. However he is younger and likely to have been cheaper and take on less years. Poole is making 30 million a year. Suns will be paying Beal 50 million a year.

Don't mean to say Poole was the answer, but depth was. Once you traded for Durant you already lost a lot of depth. Then you signed Vogel who won a title with Lebron, Anthony Davis and defensive minded depth. You needed to build with that in mind.

Even now, with Bud. We need to look to move one of the big 3 to get some depth. We can't win a title with this group. Bud in Milwaukee won with Brook Lopez, Holiday, Middleton and depth around Giannis. We need more spread out wealth.

 

[hcsilla]

Here is the way I look at it.

The Suns gave up too much for Durant. That was the biggest mistake.

Signing Beal was like a drowning man grabbing at straw to hold onto.

Trading Ayton without a satisfactory replacement completed the trifecta. Did the Suns not think about the injury factor?

The Suns fixed the hole at point guard. They haven't fixed the hole in the middle. Coaches can only do so much.

We agree, the Suns need a leader or minimally someone that can bring some toughness to the team. They have to hope toughness is enough because I don't see any leaders that are available. Hopefully they can find someone in the trade market that fills this role at the 4/5, the team develops some chemistry and that is enough.

Also, it would be nice if the team didn't behave like they are on a cruise for the rest of the season and the playoffs.

No, I think that the biggest mistake was to think that adding Durant makes a team that was holding together by the declining CP automatically a contender. It did not.

The basics of the Durant-trade were pretty much the same when Prokhorov traded the Nets' future for Garnett and Pierce. The Nets did not become a contender at all, but Boston did build a dynasty from that trade while the Nets went into the hell for years with no future and hope.

Trading for Beal was completing a suicide escpecially with the pick swaps included. Then even more pick swaps were traded for minor future 2nd rounders. Even Isiah Thomas would be (or even was?) proud of these trades which killed completely the Suns' flexibilty till 2030.

I have nothing against the Ayton-trade, we already had a hole in the middle with Ayton. Switching him to Nurkic did not affect the team's performance but gave a financial releif and a valuable role player in Allen.

 

[Carolinacacti]

If you play faster the other team will get more shots. I’d rather have Bud than the janitor we had last year. No offense to the janitors out their

 

[Hoop Head]

No, I think that the biggest mistake was to think that adding Durant makes a team that was holding together by the declining CP automatically a contender. It did not.

The basics of the Durant-trade were pretty much the same when Prokhorov traded the Nets' future for Garnett and Pierce. The Nets did not become a contender at all, but Boston did build a dynasty from that trade while the Nets went into the hell for years with no future and hope.

Trading for Beal was completing a suicide escpecially with the pick swaps included. Then even more pick swaps were traded for minor future 2nd rounders. Even Isiah Thomas would be (or even was?) proud of these trades which killed completely the Suns' flexibilty till 2030.

I have nothing against the Ayton-trade, we already had a hole in the middle with Ayton. Switching him to Nurkic did not affect the team's performance but gave a financial releif and a valuable role player in Allen.

I agree with everything except the Beal trade. That was plugging in life support despite being completely comatose and letting nature take it's course. The cost for Beal wasn't high by any means. We traded 4 swap rights, 2 of which had already been made so they had second choice to swap 1st rounders with us. Outside of those we gave up 4 2nd round picks, which seems to be the rate midlevel players fetch now if teams won't/can't trade a 1st. Crowder and Saddiq Bey both were dealt for that many 2nd rounders. Point being we lost little flexibility for an outside chance to recover from the KD trade. Those swaps and 2nd's were never going to dig us out of the hole we were in. The major issue now is the financial hit the Suns took on by acquiring Beal. His NTC basically ensures we'll need to get worse before we get better.

 

[hcsilla]

I agree with everything except the Beal trade. That was plugging in life support despite being completely comatose and letting nature take it's course. The cost for Beal wasn't high by any means. We traded 4 swap rights, 2 of which had already been made so they had second choice to swap 1st rounders with us. Outside of those we gave up 4 2nd round picks, which seems to be the rate midlevel players fetch now if teams won't/can't trade a 1st. Crowder and Saddiq Bey both were dealt for that many 2nd rounders. Point being we lost little flexibility for an outside chance to recover from the KD trade. Those swaps and 2nd's were never going to dig us out of the hole we were in. The major issue now is the financial hit the Suns took on by acquiring Beal. His NTC basically ensures we'll need to get worse before we get better.

I disagree.

Yes, the financial burden of Beal's contract is huge, his NTC makes him even more untradeable.

Only one swap right has been expired (without execution), the other 3 are still waiting to happen and these make any rebuilding trades painfully suicidical.

Besides and finally: Beal was not really needed, especially at this cost. I highly doubt that it was a heavy competition for Beal's services, yet the price paid for him was unreasonably high and the rigidity caused by his contract and the pick swaps makes it even worse.

 

[Hoop Head]

I disagree.

Yes, the financial burden of Beal's contract is huge, his NTC makes him even more untradeable.

Only one swap right has been expired (without execution), the other 3 are still waiting to happen and these make any rebuilding trades painfully suicidical.

Besides and finally: Beal was not really needed, especially at this cost. I highly doubt that it was a heavy competition for Beal's services, yet the price paid for him was unreasonably high and the rigidity caused by his contract and the pick swaps makes it even worse.

The swaps we traded in the Beal deal were traded already. The Wizards gained second or third dibs on swapping. Second or third rights to swap were never going to get much value.

We didn't pay much in terms of assets, financially is another story. I'd agree we didn't need him to fill a hole but we do need him if the Suns hope to compete for a title. KD and Booker weren't competing for a championship on their own. I'm not saying Beal makes us a favorite but he cracks that door a little bit.

In 2026 the Suns pick is the least favorable of our own, Orlando, Memphis, and Washington.

In 2028 the Suns pick is the least favorable of our own, Philadelphia, Brooklyn, and Washington.

In 2030 the Suns pick is least favorable of our own Memphis, and Washington.

The Brooklyn, Memphis, and Orlando deals were done before the Beal deal so the Wizards last behind them in priority. I'm not sure about Philadelphia but that's not a big deal. None of those swaps were going to garner any value. Washington took them to have something to show for Beal.

Source for swap rights

 

[Mainstreet]

No, I think that the biggest mistake was to think that adding Durant makes a team that was holding together by the declining CP automatically a contender. It did not.

The basics of the Durant-trade were pretty much the same when Prokhorov traded the Nets' future for Garnett and Pierce. The Nets did not become a contender at all, but Boston did build a dynasty from that trade while the Nets went into the hell for years with no future and hope.

Trading for Beal was completing a suicide escpecially with the pick swaps included. Then even more pick swaps were traded for minor future 2nd rounders. Even Isiah Thomas would be (or even was?) proud of these trades which killed completely the Suns' flexibilty till 2030.

I have nothing against the Ayton-trade, we already had a hole in the middle with Ayton. Switching him to Nurkic did not affect the team's performance but gave a financial releif and a valuable role player in Allen.

We disagree. Overpaying for Durant was the Suns' biggest mistake. It set off a chain reaction of after effects.

I definitely would not have included Mikal Bridges in any trade. This has been my position all along.

If Beal had still waived his no trade clause to come to Phoenix, it was a risk worth taking, especially with Paul in decline.

When the Suns traded for Nurkic, trading for three players with a history of injury was asking too much.

Nurkic is not the same player physically as when he entered the NBA.

 

[Covert Rain]

I disagree.

Yes, the financial burden of Beal's contract is huge, his NTC makes him even more untradeable.

Only one swap right has been expired (without execution), the other 3 are still waiting to happen and these make any rebuilding trades painfully suicidical.

Besides and finally: Beal was not really needed, especially at this cost. I highly doubt that it was a heavy competition for Beal's services, yet the price paid for him was unreasonably high and the rigidity caused by his contract and the pick swaps makes it even worse.

Yep. What makes Beal’s contract an albatross is his availability and the NTC. Trade value is determined by production return on said deal. Beal’s productivity return has been abysmal and the inability to move him makes it even worse.

 

[hcsilla]

The swaps we traded in the Beal deal were traded already. The Wizards gained second or third dibs on swapping. Second or third rights to swap were never going to get much value.

We didn't pay much in terms of assets, financially is another story. I'd agree we didn't need him to fill a hole but we do need him if the Suns hope to compete for a title. KD and Booker weren't competing for a championship on their own. I'm not saying Beal makes us a favorite but he cracks that door a little bit.

In 2026 the Suns pick is the least favorable of our own, Orlando, Memphis, and Washington.

In 2028 the Suns pick is the least favorable of our own, Philadelphia, Brooklyn, and Washington.

In 2030 the Suns pick is least favorable of our own Memphis, and Washington.

The Brooklyn, Memphis, and Orlando deals were done before the Beal deal so the Wizards last behind them in priority. I'm not sure about Philadelphia but that's not a big deal. None of those swaps were going to garner any value. Washington took them to have something to show for Beal.

Source for swap rights

No, only the 2028 1st rounder swap (from the Durant-trade) did happen before the Beal-deal, the others came after.

The pick swaps make any rebuilding moves more risky since if the Wizards' rebuilding sooner or later ends, our pick might worsen easily.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

No, only the 2028 1st rounder swap (from the Durant-trade) did happen before the Beal-deal, the others came after.

The pick swaps make any rebuilding moves more risky since if the Wizards' rebuilding sooner or later ends, our pick might worsen easily.

Wake me when this happens.

 

[hcsilla]

Yes, it is not likely to happen anytime soon, but if it does even in 2029, it still might hurt our possibe rebuilding.

 

[hcsilla]

We disagree. Overpaying for Durant was the Suns' biggest mistake. It set off a chain reaction of after effects.

I definitely would not have included Mikal Bridges in any trade. This has been my position all along.

If Beal had still waived his no trade clause to come to Phoenix, it was a risk worth taking, especially with Paul in decline.

When the Suns traded for Nurkic, trading for three players with a history of injury was asking too much.

Nurkic is not the same player physically as when he entered the NBA.

Yes, overpaying or not is debatable but Bridges was a key part of the deal, without him the Nets wouldn't even have started the negotiations.

I don't think that the Suns traded for Nurkic. Instead they did get rid of Ayton and Nurkic (together with Allen) seemed a servicable return. Injury prone or not, the Suns probably did not have the luxury of entertaining multiple offers for Ayton, they took what they could.