2011 Draft Thread

[slinslin]

Lawal works as a backup?

Are we talking about the same player who only had a few decent summer league games, couldn't get any minutes for the Suns, did not do anything noteworthy in the d-league and blew out his knee?

 

[slinslin]

I don't see the problem with Fredette... well, 'Jimmer' is a weird name but beyond that. As a shooter he doesn't have a flaw - a pure stroke with a very fast release, he can shoot from anywhere on the floor, pull up at any range. Close in he takes contact and stays under control, and is creative as Hell. One of the very few guys I've ever seen with a great step back shot from 3 point range. That kind of shooting translates perfectly to the NBA.

He's no slouch at getting himself open either - offensively he has terrific lateral movement, a good first step and surprisingly good elevation. You don't get him off his shot with a nudge or a bump.

He is worse defensively than even Nash. He is the worst defender coming out of the draft in a long time and that says a lot for a senior.

He won't get his shot off like that in the NBA and he is not a true PG. He got his assists in college because he drew so much defensive attention. In the NBA teams will put guys like Tony Allen on him and he is toast unless he is simply hot.

Best case Mo Williams imo...

 

[slinslin]

Burks at #13
Selby at #13-20
Tyler at #20-25

Those are the picks I would like to see.

Much rather get Tyler even at #13 than picking Markieff Morris, yuck.

 

[Magnus]

I didn't understand the above comment. I'm not sure if Brooks is tall enough to even regularly start at PG much less play PF.

Seriously I enjoyed reading posts by Irish and Magnus.

Haha, shoot, mixed up Lawal and Dowdell... Oh well, it happens

 

[Folster]

Burks at #13
Selby at #13-20
Tyler at #20-25

Those are the picks I would like to see.

Much rather get Tyler even at #13 than picking Markieff Morris, yuck.

I'm on board with Burks. He has the key ball-handling ability necessary for a dynamic wing. Selby reminds me of Monta Ellis from the few clips tht I have seen. He would be a bit of a change at the pg position for this franchise, but I would welcome something new. After watching clips of Biyombo, I'd have to think that he would be considered with the 13th pick if he were available. He is raw offensively similarly to Stoudemire out of highschool, but defensively he is a freak. What do you think of the Euro bigs in the draft?

 

[Superbone]

I don't understand this comment. He played pg his entire senior year. He distributed very well considering he was also his team's primary offensive threat. His skills are very similar to Steve Nash's. He doesn't have the same level of passing creativity, but who does. Steve didn't when he was drafted.

The key to JImmer's nba success will be the system he lands in. If he goes to the Knicks, he will do very well.

It's actually pretty interesting. If you go back and compare their college stats, they're pretty similar.

 

[slinslin]

They are not similiar at all... only the shooting percentages.

Nash averaged a full 2 apg more than Fredette and did not hoist as many shots. Their games were totally different. Nash was getting assists because of vision and passing ability. Fredette scored first and assists resulted mostly due to him being a scorer.

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/f/fredeji01.html
http://www.databasebasketball.com/players/playerpage.htm?ilkid=nashst01

 

[JCSunsfan]

I'm on board with Burks. He has the key ball-handling ability necessary for a dynamic wing. Selby reminds me of Monta Ellis from the few clips tht I have seen. He would be a bit of a change at the pg position for this franchise, but I would welcome something new. After watching clips of Biyombo, I'd have to think that he would be considered with the 13th pick if he were available. He is raw offensively similarly to Stoudemire out of highschool, but defensively he is a freak. What do you think of the Euro bigs in the draft?

I agree with this take on Biyombo. He is raw like Stoudemire was, but he is primarily a defensive inside presence where Amare was primarily an offensive inside presence. He is maybe a little bit of a Dwight Howard. Strong, fast, deceptively long arms. He averaged 6.4 pts 5.1 reb 2.3 blocks .5 steals 56% shooting in 17 mpg playing time. He did this as an 18 year old playing against players much older than himself

 

[slinslin]

Biyombo is a risk, that does not matter much. But he will go top 7 and will be costly to trade up for...

I'd rather take a risk on Jeremy Tyler who would be cheaper to acquire and is bigger and more skilled but a potential headcase. Both would not suck either.

Tyler
Biyombo
Williams(Leonard)
Burks
Selby

If I could cherry pick a rookie lineup.

 

[JCSunsfan]

They are not similiar at all... only the shooting percentages.

Nash averaged a full 2 apg more than Fredette and did not hoist as many shots. Their games were totally different. Nash was getting assists because of vision and passing ability. Fredette scored first and assists resulted mostly due to him being a scorer.

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/f/fredeji01.html
http://www.databasebasketball.com/players/playerpage.htm?ilkid=nashst01

Fredette averaged 3.7 and Nash averaged 4.5. I think 4 to 5 apg is considered very good for a college pg and pretty typical of pg's drafted in the 1st round. Nash would get alot less assists if he wasn't such a good shooter. His shooting opens up the driving lanes for him alot.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Biyombo is a risk, that does not matter much. But he will go top 7 and will be costly to trade up for...

I'd rather take a risk on Jeremy Tyler who would be cheaper to acquire and is bigger and more skilled but a potential headcase. Both would not suck either.

Tyler
Biyombo
Williams(Leonard)
Burks
Selby

If I could cherry pick a rookie lineup.

I would love to try to buy a late first round pick and snag Selby. He seems to be a sleeper. He probably should have stayed in school another year. Getting Biyombo/Selby in this draft would be sweet.

 

[Errntknght]

He is worse defensively than even Nash. He is the worst defender coming out of the draft in a long time and that says a lot for a senior.

He won't get his shot off like that in the NBA and he is not a true PG. He got his assists in college because he drew so much defensive attention. In the NBA teams will put guys like Tony Allen on him and he is toast unless he is simply hot.
Best case Mo Williams imo...

Well, if it was anyone else but you, slin, I'd put some credence in what you say about his defense but you form a quick opinion and subsequent events never cause you to budge - I almost never agree with you on players we've both observed. Not that I expect him to be a first rate defender, those are always guys that had to defend like demons to stay on the team or to get in the game.

Unless Warrick skipped college there has to be one recent player coming from college thats a worse defender than Fredette is - I simply won't believe someone is worse than Hakim without watching him for several games.

Its true that many prolific scorers from the college ranks don't cut it in the NBA but usually they are guys that have some physical ability that gives them an edge on their one favorite shot. Some rely on a relatively subtle offensive foul in order to get a clear shot. Fredette just relies on a complete repretoire of shots and tremendous range - heck, he'll probably find the NBA easier because he won't be the focus of the other teams defense every minute he's on the floor - at least, not until he proves its necessary. (Of course, at that point you'll have lost this dispute.)

I'm not predicting he'll be an all-star and maybe he won't even be a starter but I am predicting he'll be able to score a bunch. I think he'll have to learn to be a PG in order to be a starter - just like Nash had to. And the odds are he doesn't have the freakish peripheral vision that Steve does to help him along. Thus he'll have to be in a conventional offense to succeed.

I'd say Mo Williams is his worst case...

 

[Russ Smith]

Biyombo is a risk, that does not matter much. But he will go top 7 and will be costly to trade up for...

I'd rather take a risk on Jeremy Tyler who would be cheaper to acquire and is bigger and more skilled but a potential headcase. Both would not suck either.

Tyler
Biyombo
Williams(Leonard)
Burks
Selby

If I could cherry pick a rookie lineup.

Tyler is a pretty scary risk though. He has reportedly matured and interviewed well but he was about the most immature kid I've seen in years when he was a junior in HS. He played against Renardo Sidney on ESPN that year and he made Sidney look well behaved. His team was getting creamed so he just started taking cheapshots at Sidney either trying to start a fight, or get himself kicked out so he didn't have to finish the game. It was embarassing and remember Sidney is the kid who fought a teammate in the crowd on national tv last year.

I read somewhere his trainer thinks Tyler might measure 40 inches on his vertical leap. I'll believe it when I see it but he is awfully athletic. Had no skill at all beyond dunking but hopefully he learned something since he left HS.

The first time he and Sidney played in HS he was a soph, Sidney a junior, and Sidney shut out Tyler and fouled him out.

 

[slinslin]

Fredette averaged 3.7 and Nash averaged 4.5. I think 4 to 5 apg is considered very good for a college pg and pretty typical of pg's drafted in the 1st round. Nash would get alot less assists if he wasn't such a good shooter. His shooting opens up the driving lanes for him alot.

Nash averaged 6.4 apg as a junior and 6 as a senior, not 4.5

 

[PhxGametime]

If the Suns don't Draft a PG with the #13 Pick; I'd like to get Iman Shumpert G Georgia Tech in the late 1st/high 2nd Round. That dude can defend and measured better than i even thought, at 6'5.5. He's as close to sleeper i have with Prospects not being mentioned...

 

[slinslin]

More athletic testing results.

Derrick Williams ranked #1 among all player with 19 in the bench press.

Josh Selby recorded a 42" max vertical leap, would put him in the top 10 of DX all time database.

 

[PhxGametime]

Marshon Brooks tested really well! I was considering him at #13 after watching a game the other day, didn't know much about him or Charles Jenkins.


but Brooks tested well, measured well, and put up numbers across the board in College. He's probably an option at #13. I'd like to see the rest of Selby's numbers though.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Marshon Brooks tested really well! I was considering him at #13 after watching a game the other day, didn't know much about him or Charles Jenkins.


but Brooks tested well, measured well, and put up numbers across the board in College. He's probably an option at #13. I'd like to see the rest of Selby's numbers though.

Jimmer tested as the quickest first round prospect period. So much for all the slow white guy talk. Best lateral quickness too and very strong. Cant see why he does not have the tools to play d if he wants to.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Marshon Brooks tested really well! I was considering him at #13 after watching a game the other day, didn't know much about him or Charles Jenkins.


but Brooks tested well, measured well, and put up numbers across the board in College. He's probably an option at #13. I'd like to see the rest of Selby's numbers though.

Not a lot of talk about him, but seems like a decent prospect. We certainly need a #2 of the future.

 

[devilalum]

Jimmer tested as the quickest first round prospect period. So much for all the slow white guy talk. Best lateral quickness too and very strong. Cant see why he does not have the tools to play d if he wants to.

Why again won't the Jazz take this guy?

 

[slinslin]

Jimmer tested as the quickest first round prospect period. So much for all the slow white guy talk. Best lateral quickness too and very strong. Cant see why he does not have the tools to play d if he wants to.

He did not finish well shooting on the move and off the dribble.

He can't play defense...

I just don't see it. Jordan Farmer also tested out as an athletic freak and well..

 

[Errntknght]

They are not similiar at all... only the shooting percentages.

Nash averaged a full 2 apg more than Fredette and did not hoist as many shots. Their games were totally different. Nash was getting assists because of vision and passing ability. Fredette scored first and assists resulted mostly due to him being a scorer.

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/f/fredeji01.html
http://www.databasebasketball.com/players/playerpage.htm?ilkid=nashst01

I checked those stat charts and came to quite a different conclusion. Fredette had more assists in his 4 year college career than Nash did in his 4 - 515 to 510. Yes he played in more games but its not clear that he played more total minutes than Nash did. For some reason they did not list Fredette's minutes for his first two years but his points his first two years add to the same number of points he got in his third year so its not unreasonable to assume his playing time those first two years was about the same as his playing time the third year. Also suggestive of this is that Fredette's scoring from year 3 to year 4 scaled with his increase in minutes played. Using that number he played 3500 minutes to Nash's 3400 so their assist rates were almost identical!

Your claim to 'know' Nash and Fredette got their assists in such different ways is pure balderdash... though, of course, quite typical for you.

 

[Covert Rain]

Jimmer tested as the quickest first round prospect period. So much for all the slow white guy talk. Best lateral quickness too and very strong. Cant see why he does not have the tools to play d if he wants to.

That's what people said about Nash and Amare when it came to defense when they were drafted. You either have defensive skills or you don't. If he sucks at defense in college he will at the NBA level as well IMO.

The Suns organization will never change it stripes if it continues to draft offensive minded guys with no defensive skills.

 

[slinslin]

I checked those stat charts and came to quite a different conclusion. Fredette had more assists in his 4 year college career than Nash did in his 4 - 515 to 510. Yes he played in more games but its not clear that he played more total minutes than Nash did. For some reason they did not list Fredette's minutes for his first two years but his points his first two years add to the same number of points he got in his third year so its not unreasonable to assume his playing time those first two years was about the same as his playing time the third year. Also suggestive of this is that Fredette's scoring from year 3 to year 4 scaled with his increase in minutes played. Using that number he played 3500 minutes to Nash's 3400 so their assist rates were almost identical!

Your claim to 'know' Nash and Fredette got their assists in such different ways is pure balderdash... though, of course, quite typical for you.

Who cares about total numbers?

Fredette 36mpg 4.3apg as a senior
Nash 34mpg 6.0apg as a senior

Fredette 31mpg 4.7apg as a junior
Nash 33mpg 6.4apg as a junior

Fredette took twice as many shots as Nash as a senior. Don't even try to tell me their games are similiar, they are not.

 

[Errntknght]

Jimmer tested as the quickest first round prospect period. So much for all the slow white guy talk. Best lateral quickness too and very strong. Cant see why he does not have the tools to play d if he wants to.

I tend not to use that argument since Barbosa - heck in his case, leading up to the draft, he was said to be a very good defender. He was atrocious when he came into the league and improved some (giving out fewer and1's)but he never did have a clue as to which hand to 'shade'. Fredette figures to have a higher bball IQ, but when it comes to defense, potential just isn't a reliable indicator.