2012 Draft and Early round history

[Bodha]

Do you think we should make it a priority to regain that 2nd round pick in the 2012 draft, or just accept not having it.


IMO, 2 rounders are the most valuable guys in the draft. 1st round talent for half the price and half the attitude. Often, a 1st round guys ability is overblown with hype. 2nd rounders are who they are. Theres no wool with these guys. Forget the stigma of "Cards have bad luck with 2nd rounders" thats ridiculous, we arent 4. coodies arent real. Daryl Washington and Ryan Williams the 2 brightest stars on this team. If anything our 1st round picks have been the cursed ones.

Would you be willing to give up 2 or 3 picks to pick up that 2nd? Usually the Patriots have a bunch of picks stocked up. Say give them our 4th and 5th for one of their 2nds. And then give up a 3rd and swap 2nds with someone lower down? We need stars on this team. Guys in the late rounds very rarely make a difference. Id rather come out of this draft with 2 or 3 solid guys than having 6 or 7 guys who will probably wash out.

So FYI, heres our 1st and 2nd round draft history from the past decade. Embarassing, as expected. Our 2nd round history isnt nearly as bad as guy make it out to be. Seeing this, if we dont get Kalil or Blackmon, Id be 100% eager to trade out of the top 10. Could pick up probably a 2nd and a 3rd (plus wed just swap 1sts).


1st round picks:


2000Thomas Jones7thRunning Back2001Leonard Davis 2ndTackle2002Wendell Bryant 12thDefensive Tackle2003Bryant Johnson 17thWide Receiver2003Calvin Pace 18thDefensive End2004Larry Fitzgerald 3rdWide Receiver2005Antrel Rolle 8thCornerback2006Matt Leinart 10thQuarterback2007Levi Brown 5thLeft Tackle2008DRC 16thCornerback2009Beanie Wells 31stRunning Back2010Dan Williams 26thDefensive Tackle2011Patrick Peterson 5thCornerback

Red = Bust
purple = 1/2 bust
blue = TBD
gold = star

2nd rounders

2000Raynoch ThompsonLinebacker2001Kyle Vanden BoschDE
2002Levar FisherLinebacker2003Anquan BoldinWide Receiver2004Karlos DansbyLinebacker2005JJ AringtonRunning back2006Deuce LutuiGuard2007Alan BranchDefensive Tackle2008Calais CampbellDefensive end2009Cody BrownLinebacker2010Daryl WashingtonLinebacker2011 Ryan WilliamsRunning back

 

[Phrazbit]

Do you think we should make it a priority to regain that 2nd round pick in the 2012 draft, or just accept not having it.


IMO, 2 rounders are the most valuable guys in the draft. 1st round talent for half the price and half the attitude. Often, a 1st round guys ability is overblown with hype. 2nd rounders are who they are. Theres no wool with these guys. Forget the stigma of "Cards have bad luck with 2nd rounders" thats ridiculous, we arent 4. coodies arent real. Daryl Washington and Ryan Williams the 2 brightest stars on this team. If anything our 1st round picks have been the cursed ones.

Would you be willing to give up 2 or 3 picks to pick up that 2nd? Usually the Patriots have a bunch of picks stocked up. Say give them our 4th and 5th for one of their 2nds. And then give up a 3rd and swap 2nds with someone lower down? We need stars on this team. Guys in the late rounds very rarely make a difference. Id rather come out of this draft with 2 or 3 solid guys than having 6 or 7 guys who will probably wash out.

So FYI, heres our 1st and 2nd round draft history from the past decade. Embarassing, as expected. Our 2nd round history isnt nearly as bad as guy make it out to be. Seeing this, if we dont get Kalil or Blackmon, Id be 100% eager to trade out of the top 10. Could pick up probably a 2nd and a 3rd (plus wed just swap 1sts).


1st round picks:


2000Thomas Jones7thRunning Back2001Leonard Davis 2ndTackle2002Wendell Bryant 12thDefensive Tackle2003Bryant Johnson 17thWide Receiver2003Calvin Pace 18thDefensive End2004Larry Fitzgerald 3rdWide Receiver2005Antrel Rolle 8thCornerback2006Matt Leinart 10thQuarterback2007Levi Brown 5thLeft Tackle2008DRC 16thCornerback2009Beanie Wells 31stRunning Back2010Dan Williams 26thDefensive Tackle2011Patrick Peterson 5thCornerback

Red = Bust
purple = 1/2 bust
blue = TBD
gold = star

2nd rounders

2000Raynoch ThompsonLinebacker2001Kyle Vanden BoschDE
2002Levar FisherLinebacker2003Anquan BoldinWide Receiver2004Karlos DansbyLinebacker2005JJ AringtonRunning back2006Deuce LutuiGuard2007Alan BranchDefensive Tackle2008Calais CampbellDefensive end2009Cody BrownLinebacker2010Daryl WashingtonLinebacker2011 Ryan WilliamsRunning back

Wow... you have some pretty high standards for a guy to not be a bust... Kyle Vanden Bosch, Antrel Rolle, DRC and Thomas Jones have played in a combined 7 pro bowls.

 

[Bodha]

Wow... you have some pretty high standards for a guy to not be a bust... Kyle Vanden Bosch, Antrel Rolle, DRC and Thomas Jones have played in a combined 7 pro bowls.

Was it really necessary to quote my entire post? Your the 1st person to respond, I dont think anyones going to be confused by who youre referencing.

KVB - His career began post Cardinals. What do I care how many sacks he got when he was with the Titans? As a Cardinal he was an injury plagued bust.

Rolle was Drafted to be a CB, not a safety. That doesnt sound like a success to me.

DRC - We really need to discuss this?

Thomas Jones is much like KVB, what he does not on the Cardinals doesnt help us.

 

[Phrazbit]

So what if Rolle was selected as a corner... he made a pro-bowl, he has been an all-pro. Its not as though safety is not an important position.

DRC also, made a pro bowl and earned it that season. And his value around the league was high enough that the Cards used him to get duped by the Eagles.

Calvin Pace was a defensive end, who was moved to linebacker played all of his best years outside of Arizona, has never made a pro bowl... yet you list him as a "star", while guys who played in pro bowls in Arizona are busts.

Even if you dont want to call a guy like Rolle a "star" he certainly was not a bust. Maybe you should make a new rank and call it "solid", otherwise your rankings are rather absurd.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

I see your point but you do seem to have pretty high standards. Maybe it's the wording, but I don't consider guys like Leonard Davis to be any sort of bust. He was a solid starter for many years. You have Pace as a star and Rolle and Jones as busts. That seems off. Rolle made the pro bowl for the Cards. Who cares if he was drafted as a CB and switched. Ronnie Lott was drafted as a CB, was he a bust? Also, I would call JJ Arrington a full bust. Even Levi Brown I would call 1/2 bust. It's hard, to me, to call a guy a bust who has started about every game in his career. If the Cards had left him at RT he'd probably be listed in gold.

To me, it looks like other than 2002, Leinart, and the horrendous 2003 trade, the Cards have done average to above average in round 1. In round 2, Fisher,Thompson, Arrington, and Brown, have been wasted picks so there is a higher % of failures in round 2 but that's to be expected.

However, as you are pointing out, 4 of the best Cards players have come from round 2 in Boldin, CC, Dansby, and Washington and they have outperformed most of the #1 picks.

 

[Buckybird]

Do you think we should make it a priority to regain that 2nd round pick in the 2012 draft, or just accept not having it.


IMO, 2 rounders are the most valuable guys in the draft. 1st round talent for half the price and half the attitude. Often, a 1st round guys ability is overblown with hype. 2nd rounders are who they are. Theres no wool with these guys. Forget the stigma of "Cards have bad luck with 2nd rounders" thats ridiculous, we arent 4. coodies arent real. Daryl Washington and Ryan Williams the 2 brightest stars on this team. If anything our 1st round picks have been the cursed ones.

Would you be willing to give up 2 or 3 picks to pick up that 2nd? Usually the Patriots have a bunch of picks stocked up. Say give them our 4th and 5th for one of their 2nds. And then give up a 3rd and swap 2nds with someone lower down? We need stars on this team. Guys in the late rounds very rarely make a difference. Id rather come out of this draft with 2 or 3 solid guys than having 6 or 7 guys who will probably wash out.

So FYI, heres our 1st and 2nd round draft history from the past decade. Embarassing, as expected. Our 2nd round history isnt nearly as bad as guy make it out to be. Seeing this, if we dont get Kalil or Blackmon, Id be 100% eager to trade out of the top 10. Could pick up probably a 2nd and a 3rd (plus wed just swap 1sts).


1st round picks:


2000Thomas Jones7thRunning Back2001Leonard Davis 2ndTackle2002Wendell Bryant 12thDefensive Tackle2003Bryant Johnson 17thWide Receiver2003Calvin Pace 18thDefensive End2004Larry Fitzgerald 3rdWide Receiver2005Antrel Rolle 8thCornerback2006Matt Leinart 10thQuarterback2007Levi Brown 5thLeft Tackle2008DRC 16thCornerback2009Beanie Wells 31stRunning Back2010Dan Williams 26thDefensive Tackle2011Patrick Peterson 5thCornerback

Red = Bust
purple = 1/2 bust
blue = TBD
gold = star

2nd rounders

2000Raynoch ThompsonLinebacker2001Kyle Vanden BoschDE
2002Levar FisherLinebacker2003Anquan BoldinWide Receiver2004Karlos DansbyLinebacker2005JJ AringtonRunning back2006Deuce LutuiGuard2007Alan BranchDefensive Tackle2008Calais CampbellDefensive end2009Cody BrownLinebacker2010Daryl WashingtonLinebacker2011 Ryan WilliamsRunning back

Hows all that talent & trades working out for the Pats now? I would say that their drafts in the last 5 years with all the trading has been less than stellar. If I'm the Cards stay where ever you are in Rd 1 & draft the best player on the board...that generally works out IMO.

 

[Garthshort]

We need at least one OT from the Draft, with maybe the second one from FA. I would think that if we have a high pick, and it sure looks that way, then we hold on to it and take the OT. Now if our season turns around and we fall into the middle of the pact, then it might make sense to try to recover the second rounder, and hope we get lucky with a second tier OT.

 

[Duckjake]

I can't see calling Ryan Williams one of the brightest stars on the team when he's never played a down in a regular season game.

But what your post clearly points out is the Cards problem with not being able to keep guys past their first contract and not getting them to play to the max of their ability while they are in Arizona.

I wonder how the Cards stack up with other teams in the # of 1st and 2nd round picks who were better for other teams than for the Cards.

 

[PDXChris]

Pace was drafted as a DE and ended up playing LB for the Cards. Your logic is flawed if he is a star and Rolle is a bust for moving to S.

 

[Bodha]

Hows all that talent & trades working out for the Pats now? I would say that their drafts in the last 5 years with all the trading has been less than stellar. If I'm the Cards stay where ever you are in Rd 1 & draft the best player on the board...that generally works out IMO.

? Whats this Patriots talk. I was just pointing out that If we were to make a deal to pick up a second rounder, the PAtriots usually have a stockpile.

Has nothing to do with the Pats draft history.

Again, IMO:

1st + 2nd round guys > 4th,5th,6th,7th round value. thats saying id give up late rounds to get that 2nd back.

I can't see calling Ryan Williams one of the brightest stars on the team when he's never played a down in a regular season game.

Having a bright future is just saying we have high expectations. Has nothing to do with what they actually do. Is there any question everyones excited about what Ryan can do for us? So its not a reflection of actions, just people being pumped hes here.

DWash is currently a major force on this team, but theres no question alot of people think hes just going to keep rising. So his current and future are both bright.

But what your post clearly points out is the Cards problem with not being able to keep guys past their first contract and not getting them to play to the max of their ability while they are in Arizona.

I was going to make that point. because I agree, but I had to stop an think about it. Kyle Vanden Bosch, how the heck could we let him go? He got 14 sacks the season after we cut him. Thats just crap luck, he was the Bob Sanders of this team during. Constantly hurt. Cant really knock a team for cutting a guy whos always on the bench. Just terrible luck he turned out to be a beast.

I wonder how the Cards stack up with other teams in the # of 1st and 2nd round picks who were better for other teams than for the Cards.

Same, anyone is welcome to compile that list. This one took me quite awhile.

Pace was drafted as a DE and ended up playing LB for the Cards. Your logic is flawed if he is a star and Rolle is a bust for moving to S.

Calm down, I didnt realize that. So yes, in that situation, Pace would fall under the half bust tag. Hes not a total bust because he posted most of his career high while in AZ. thats saying alot considering how talented he is.

 

[DoTheDew]

I think you're letting the fact that guys were drafted in the 1st round cause you to place higher standards on them.

For instance, JJ Arrington was horrible and out of the league now, yet somehow he's only half a bust whereas Thomas Jones is a total bust?

Rolle should be 1/2 bust. He was good enough to get a big deal with the Giants and be a pro-bowl alternate. If he were a 2nd rounder you would not have rated him a bust I suspect.

Same with Leonard Davis, if he were a 2nd rounder you'd have probably rated him a star. Guy was a starter and pro bowl alternate.

Back to your original point, I do think you can find great value in the 2nd round, particularly at the less "in-demand" positions like RB, LB, S, and interior OL. However, you'd be mistaken if you said that 2nd rounders are equal to 1st rounders in talent. If you actually look at the data league wide, the vast majority of pro-bowlers and hall of famers were 1st rounders. The price tag issue is a legitimate concern, but it's much less of one with the new rookie pay scale. The 5.5 million per year that Newton is getting is no where near as bad as the 10-15 million per year on average that Bradford is going to get.

 

[Duckjake]

I was going to make that point. because I agree, but I had to stop an think about it. Kyle Vanden Bosch, how the heck could we let him go? He got 14 sacks the season after we cut him. Thats just crap luck, he was the Bob Sanders of this team during. Constantly hurt. Cant really knock a team for cutting a guy whos always on the bench. Just terrible luck he turned out to be a beast.

That's the reason few people here count KVB and Andre Wadsworth among the numerous Cardinal failures.