2014 NFL Draft: Prospects Too Good To Pass On

[WildBB]

I dunno about Barr. I used to be really interested in him. Todd McShay really doesn't like him as a Top 20 prospect, and Mel Kiper originally liked him and then turned around on him in the last month or so. They think that Barr lacks instincts and an aggressive defensive mentality. They thought he played without passion this season.

I think that Barr's a mixed enough prospect that the Cards would consider trading down some, particularly if Bowles' 3-4 defense is one in which the OLB is primarily attacking the line of scrimmage.

Chris Sanders was saying that the Cards are putting a lot of commentary out there about how much the love Johnny Manziel. I'm not seeing it. I think it's very possible that Manziel falls out of the top 12.

Saw him in the ASU game, and he definitely didn't jump out at you the way you would think he would.

I'd lean more towards Dee Ford who has great attributes and whose hustle is without question. He's just a bit smaller. If he were Barr's size there wouldn't be any discussion. He wouldn't be available.

Do you think Bridgewater should go higher? To who?

 

[bankybruce]

This one is a tough one for me because I like all of those names, but only one fills a week 1 need and that is Taylor Lewan at RT. All the rest would not start. Gilbert would be #3 or #4 CB and groomed for next year. Same with Donald and it would most likely be the end of DD after this season. Then there is Bridgewater. How long do you sit him? Of course, I am a fan, so I want impact now, not next year. If I were going BPA, I would go Gilbert, but that just feels so unsexy and I guess that is why I wish we could get the best TE in the draft.

I am so glad I do not have to make these decisions.

 

[kerouac9]

This one is a tough one for me because I like all of those names, but only one fills a week 1 need and that is Taylor Lewan at RT. All the rest would not start. Gilbert would be #3 or #4 CB and groomed for next year. Same with Donald and it would most likely be the end of DD after this season. Then there is Bridgewater. How long do you sit him? Of course, I am a fan, so I want impact now, not next year. If I were going BPA, I would go Gilbert, but that just feels so unsexy and I guess that is why I wish we could get the best TE in the draft.

I am so glad I do not have to make these decisions.

First: let me say that this is largely and academic/philosophical discussion for me. Keim and Arians have earned my trust w/r/t draft matters, and I'm probably not going to squeal no matter what they do.

Second: I think that people are really overrating the necessity to have impact immediately or in the first year for our top pick. I think that Arias expressed that about our pick last year, but he was talking about a Top 10 pick, not a player in the Top 25. I also think that Keim's actions speak louder than his words. When the Cards took Michael Floyd when they had Fitz, Doucet, and Roberts under contract, they weren't looking for instant impact. When Keim took Kevin Minter last year when they already had Daryl Washington under contract and had just signed Jasper Brinkley to a multi-year deal, they weren't looking for or depending on instant impact.

 

[Totally_Red]

First: let me say that this is largely and academic/philosophical discussion for me. Keim and Arians have earned my trust w/r/t draft matters, and I'm probably not going to squeal no matter what they do.

Second: I think that people are really overrating the necessity to have impact immediately or in the first year for our top pick. I think that Arias expressed that about our pick last year, but he was talking about a Top 10 pick, not a player in the Top 25. I also think that Keim's actions speak louder than his words. When the Cards took Michael Floyd when they had Fitz, Doucet, and Roberts under contract, they weren't looking for instant impact. When Keim took Kevin Minter last year when they already had Daryl Washington under contract and had just signed Jasper Brinkley to a multi-year deal, they weren't looking for or depending on instant impact.

Agree to a point. I think they want players who CAN contribute right away and don't require a year or two to coach up to the point where they can contribute. The difference is that between Jonathan Cooper and Earl Watford. While most draft evaluators felt Cooper was a day one starter, they also felt that Watford would need at least a year before he would be ready to be an NFL starter. Cooper without the injury would have contributed year one. Watford did not.

I still remember Keim's veiled reference to one of the top-ranked pass rushers and how the Cardinals wouldn't draft him though one of the coaches loved him. The reason: he wouldn't contribute in year one.

 

[Russ Smith]

Saw him in the ASU game, and he definitely didn't jump out at you the way you would think he would.

I'd lean more towards Dee Ford who has great attributes and whose hustle is without question. He's just a bit smaller. If he were Barr's size there wouldn't be any discussion. He wouldn't be available.

Do you think Bridgewater should go higher? To who?

7 tackles 5 solo 2 assists 1 sack. And that's with ASU's QB running for nearly 100 yards and with UCLA's 2nd best defender, Myles Jack, barely playing defense because they had moved him to RB due to injuries(and boy can he play RB).

Wasn't Barr's best game but even ASU's coach said after the game their entire game plan on offense was keep #11(Barr) off our QB, that's why Kelly ran so much they were trying to slow down Barr's pass rush. If you saw the post game feature they did on the pac 12 network on that game they asked Graham about that and he said well Taylor can run, and we didn't think we could block #11.

If you want to see a game where he was a non factor that was Arizona last year. They ran the ball constantly and he was completely taken out of the game.

 

[Krangodnzr]

First: let me say that this is largely and academic/philosophical discussion for me. Keim and Arians have earned my trust w/r/t draft matters, and I'm probably not going to squeal no matter what they do.

Second: I think that people are really overrating the necessity to have impact immediately or in the first year for our top pick. I think that Arias expressed that about our pick last year, but he was talking about a Top 10 pick, not a player in the Top 25. I also think that Keim's actions speak louder than his words. When the Cards took Michael Floyd when they had Fitz, Doucet, and Roberts under contract, they weren't looking for instant impact. When Keim took Kevin Minter last year when they already had Daryl Washington under contract and had just signed Jasper Brinkley to a multi-year deal, they weren't looking for or depending on instant impact.

I know we have our share of disagreements, but I'm with you 100% here. I think this is a very competent front office/coaching staff and I trust their decisions. I think they 1) understand what the team needs 2) understand value.

I think the Cardinals have moved to the groom and replace approach that all good teams are doing now. You draft player B to replace starter A when he is no longer fiscally viable to have on your roster.

I think the Cardinals would dance if Teddy Bridgewater fell to them. He has all the traits you look for in a very good QB. I'm not sure he can ever be great however, which is why I think you see his draft stock (supposedly) falling.

 

[Totally_Red]

I know we have our share of disagreements, but I'm with you 100% here. I think this is a very competent front office/coaching staff and I trust their decisions. I think they 1) understand what the team needs 2) understand value.

I think the Cardinals have moved to the groom and replace approach that all good teams are doing now. You draft player B to replace starter A when he is no longer fiscally viable to have on your roster.

I think the Cardinals would dance if Teddy Bridgewater fell to them. He has all the traits you look for in a very good QB. I'm not sure he can ever be great however, which is why I think you see his draft stock (supposedly) falling.

I think if Bridgewater fell to them, they'd entertain trade offers.

 

[kerouac9]

I think the Cardinals would dance if Teddy Bridgewater fell to them. He has all the traits you look for in a very good QB. I'm not sure he can ever be great however, which is why I think you see his draft stock (supposedly) falling.

Yeah... but I think that predicting greatness is an impossible task, particularly at the quarterback position. If it had been easy to predict that Drew Brees would become one of the most productive quarterbacks ever, he probably wouldn't have fallen to the second round. Even with four or five years of NFL play, it was difficult to envision that he would become the player he did.

Reasonably enough, coaches don't talk specifically about how they evaluate QBs. We see the results, but not the process.

I think if Bridgewater fell to them, they'd entertain trade offers.

Maybe, but who's trading up at that point? Cleveland didn't like him enough to use their top pick on him, but they'd give up Indy's pick plus more to take him later?

Who's still available to the Cards at #20 in a scenario where Bridgewater falls that would be a superior prospect? That's kind of the discussion that I'm trying to have here.

 

[Totally_Red]

Yeah... but I think that predicting greatness is an impossible task, particularly at the quarterback position. If it had been easy to predict that Drew Brees would become one of the most productive quarterbacks ever, he probably wouldn't have fallen to the second round. Even with four or five years of NFL play, it was difficult to envision that he would become the player he did.

Reasonably enough, coaches don't talk specifically about how they evaluate QBs. We see the results, but not the process.



Maybe, but who's trading up at that point? Cleveland didn't like him enough to use their top pick on him, but they'd give up Indy's pick plus more to take him later?

Who's still available to the Cards at #20 in a scenario where Bridgewater falls that would be a superior prospect? That's kind of the discussion that I'm trying to have here.

That is the $64,000 question. I contend that Calvin Pryor is. And if the Cardinals don't want him, then someone who wants to get ahead of Philly could potentially trade up even if Bridgewater is there.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Yeah... but I think that predicting greatness is an impossible task, particularly at the quarterback position. If it had been easy to predict that Drew Brees would become one of the most productive quarterbacks ever, he probably wouldn't have fallen to the second round. Even with four or five years of NFL play, it was difficult to envision that he would become the player he did.

Reasonably enough, coaches don't talk specifically about how they evaluate QBs. We see the results, but not the process.

Brees was a special case, as is Russell Wilson.

He was about as good as he is now at Purdue, but nearly all 6'0 and below QBs have not been good throughout the history of the NFL. I mean, we're talking like 2 or 3 6'0" QBs in the modern era. That basically guaranteed that Brees was NOT going in the first round.

But he was the 1st pick in the second round, which basically meant that the Chargers had him with a first round grade.

There is a chance that Bridgewater can be as good as he was in college. But I think that even if he isn't that good, his ceiling is still pretty high.

So basically, I do agree with you here, just had to point out how I arrive at my projection for Bridgewater. All in all, I think Bridgewater is immediately better than Lindley and is a better option than Stanton once Palmer retires based almost purely on pedigree.

 

[kerouac9]

Brees was a special case, as is Russell Wilson as well.

He was about as good as he is now at Purdue, but nearly all 6'0 and below QBs have not been good throughout the history of the NFL. I mean, we're talking like 2 or 3 6'0" QBs in the modern era. That basically guaranteed that Brees was NOT going in the first round.

But he was the 1st pick in the second round, which basically meant that the Chargers had him with a first round grade.

There is a chance that Bridgewater can be as good as he was in college. But I think that even if he isn't that good, his ceiling is still pretty high.

So basically, I do agree with you here, just had to point out how I arrive at my projection for Bridgewater. All in all, I think Bridgewater is immediately better than Lindley and is a better option than Stanton once Palmer retires based almost purely on pedigree.

Erm... No he wasn't.

http://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/drew-brees-1.html

61% career completions, nearly a half-point worse than that his senior year. Ran a spread offense for the Boilermakers when it was still considered a gimmick, and was widely panned for having a noodle arm. He was a prospect who was your classic game-manager type.

I don't know if you're overrating how Brees played at Purdue, or underrating how fantastic he's been with the Saints. Even for his four years with the Chargers, he was an average starter.

 

[bankybruce]

Second: I think that people are really overrating the necessity to have impact immediately or in the first year for our top pick.

I agree 100%, I absolutely overrating it, which is why I would be no good at running a team.

 

[Krangodnzr]

I think if Bridgewater fell to them, they'd entertain trade offers.

You're probably correct in the end; Steve Keim has certainly been very clear on how the Cardinals have felt about the draft without giving too much information up. This may be a case of fans (such as myself) wanting something to be true despite what the indicators are showing.

Last year the team said they wanted to improve the offensive line, and the team used 2 picks on linemen.

This year Keim says the team wants to get longer and faster on the edges, and if we take him for his word, Anthony Barr is 100% the pick if available. Outside of Clowney or Khalil Mack, no other prospect better meets that assessment.

 

[Russ Smith]

I've always suspected Brees is to football what several guys are to baseball where they get hurt and come back with a stronger arm. In baseball it's the Tommy John surgery where the transplanted tendon actually makes the arm stronger.

In Brees' case it was his shoulder, I've always assumed the talk from his surgeon Andrews is true, that he worked so hard, harder than any other patient he's ever had, that he simply came back with a stronger arm.

Incredibly rare, Andrews himself was stunned he said I just hoped he'd have a functional shoulder again I never dreamed he'd be an elite QB after that injury.

Just an amazing guy apparently.

 

[Jay Cardinal]

Erm... No he wasn't.

http://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/drew-brees-1.html

61% career completions, nearly a half-point worse than that his senior year. Ran a spread offense for the Boilermakers when it was still considered a gimmick, and was widely panned for having a noodle arm. He was a prospect who was your classic game-manager type.

I don't know if you're overrating how Brees played at Purdue, or underrating how fantastic he's been with the Saints. Even for his four years with the Chargers, he was an average starter.

Brees was awesome in college. He still holds most of the major Big Ten passing records. Also took Purdue to the Rose Bowl his junior year, beat Michigan and Ohio State as well. That is pretty amazing to think he took Purdue ahead of Michigan, Ohio State, and Wisconsin.

His Purdue team was really bad, they put the entire offense on his shoulders. Teams geared up to stop him. I think the knock on him was height, ability to run a pro-style offense, and aforementioned weak senior year.

Regarding Bridgewater, I dont think the Cards think highly of him. Pete Prisco says Arians compared him to Troy Smith during league meetings. I am not sure I agree with Arians completely, but I do agree he is a fit for an AZ offense that highly values throwing the ball deep. I would value Bortles, Manziel, Mettenberger, and Carr ahead of him for scheme fit.

https://twitter.com/PriscoCBS/status/459380981846126592

 

[Krangodnzr]

Erm... No he wasn't.

http://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/drew-brees-1.html

61% career completions, nearly a half-point worse than that his senior year. Ran a spread offense for the Boilermakers when it was still considered a gimmick, and was widely panned for having a noodle arm. He was a prospect who was your classic game-manager type.

I don't know if you're overrating how Brees played at Purdue, or underrating how fantastic he's been with the Saints. Even for his four years with the Chargers, he was an average starter.

I think you're falling for a bit of the recency bias here. Back in 1998, 38 TDs for a QB was amazing, even for college where numbers can be skewed. He was the Maxwell award winner in 2000 (Best college QB). He was not a game manager by any stretch. I think you are the one underrating how good he was at Purdue. BTW thanks for the ammunition for my argument

And 61% completion was good back then, and still isn't terrible now.

Completion %
1998 NCAA 63.4 (8th)
1998 Big Ten 63.4 (1st)
1999 Big Ten 60.8 (2nd)
2000 Big Ten 60.4 (2nd)

Passing Touchdowns
1998 NCAA 39 (2nd)
1998 Big Ten 39 (1st)
1999 NCAA 25 (10th)
1999 Big Ten 25 (1st)
2000 NCAA 26 (4th)
2000 Big Ten 26 (1st)
Career Big Ten** 90 (1st)

The game has changed dramatically since Brees was at Purdue. I think he has gotten better, and I may be underrating that aspect, but Drew Brees was NOT a game manager, and was one of the premier college QBs in the country playing in one of the toughest defensive leagues.

 

[kerouac9]

The game has changed dramatically since Brees was at Purdue. I think he has gotten better, and I may be underrating that aspect, but Drew Brees was NOT a game manager, and was one of the premier college QBs in the country playing in one of the toughest defensive leagues.

I probably am suffering from some rounds of recency bias, but also keep in mind that the 2001 draft was terrible for QBs. Vick went first, then Brees was the next one taken.

If Brees was a major playmaker in college, then how do you explain what happened when he went to San Diego? Bonus points if you can not use the words "Marty Schottenheimer".

 

[Buckybird]

If Brees was a major playmaker in college, then how do you explain what happened when he went to San Diego? Bonus points if you can not use the words "Marty Schottenheimer".

To think playing for "Martyball" didn't affect Bree's & his statistics is being naive IMO, especially when he had a HOF RB in LT. Similar to how #22 affected Aikmans stats.

Also, doesn't hurt Bree's that he's playing under a great play caller in Payton, though I'm sure Bree's became a better & smarter player with age too. For comparison's sake: how good was Jim Hart in Coryell years vs others as well as Dan Fouts? Hmmm the offense plays a big factor in a players career IMO K9. Not saying your totally wrong about his college career, but it is also somewhat apples to oranges when Bree's went to the NFL.

 

[Krangodnzr]

I probably am suffering from some rounds of recency bias, but also keep in mind that the 2001 draft was terrible for QBs. Vick went first, then Brees was the next one taken.

If Brees was a major playmaker in college, then how do you explain what happened when he went to San Diego? Bonus points if you can not use the words "Marty Schottenheimer".

I remember thinking he looked in over his head early on in his career. He just didn't look ready to play, which may be a function of coming from a spread offense.

But by his 3rd year in the league he had already turned his career around. I remember thinking San Diego was making a mistake letting him go and drafting Rivers. Not that I didn't like Rivers; he's one of my all time favorite QBs.

Brees is one of those cautionary tales of how not all QBs develop at the same rate. Coming out of college he looked like he would be ready to play fairly early based on his mental attributes, but he struggled mightily early on.

 

[Snakester]

My top three in the first three rounds are. Johnny Manziel, Anthony Barr and Taylor Lewan. 2nd rd. Dee Ford, Stephon Tuit and Kyle Van Noy. 3rd rd. Gabe Jackson, Trent Murphy and Chris Borland.

 

[oaken1]

Prior to the 2004 season in Sandy Eggo Brees hired a personal QB coach in the off season,....the results showed on the field....but Rivers was on the sidelines, shoulder hurt,.....new team,...history, etc.

 

[Denny Green Fan]

I dunno about Barr. I used to be really interested in him. Todd McShay really doesn't like him as a Top 20 prospect, and Mel Kiper originally liked him and then turned around on him in the last month or so. They think that Barr lacks instincts and an aggressive defensive mentality. They thought he played without passion this season.

I think that Barr's a mixed enough prospect that the Cards would consider trading down some, particularly if Bowles' 3-4 defense is one in which the OLB is primarily attacking the line of scrimmage.

Chris Sanders was saying that the Cards are putting a lot of commentary out there about how much the love Johnny Manziel. I'm not seeing it. I think it's very possible that Manziel falls out of the top 12.

I think Johnny football goes to the Bucs or Vikings. The Bucs would then try

to trade Glennon. The Vikings have a defensive minded coach but Johnny

would be the last missing piece to go with Peterson, Patterson, Rudolph and

Kalil.

 

[Denny Green Fan]

I see Gilbert going to the Lions and Donald goes to the Bears or Cowboys.

The Lions have to face those 2 Bear receivers and aaron Rodgers twice.

They have ignored that position for years. The Titans or Steelers could

also take him.

 

[Jetstream Green]

Erm... No he wasn't.

http://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/drew-brees-1.html

61% career completions, nearly a half-point worse than that his senior year. Ran a spread offense for the Boilermakers when it was still considered a gimmick, and was widely panned for having a noodle arm. He was a prospect who was your classic game-manager type.

I don't know if you're overrating how Brees played at Purdue, or underrating how fantastic he's been with the Saints. Even for his four years with the Chargers, he was an average starter.

Makes me think of a QB like AJ McCarron. He is a game manager but when your on a good team surrounded by talent your job is just to keep it moving and he did deliver when he had to. He could be one of those QBs that has a lot more in him than his college tenure showed but it was not required of him in order to win and he played smart without taking chances

 

[TJ]

Saw him in the ASU game, and he definitely didn't jump out at you the way you would think he would.

I'd lean more towards Dee Ford who has great attributes and whose hustle is without question. He's just a bit smaller. If he were Barr's size there wouldn't be any discussion. He wouldn't be available.

Do you think Bridgewater should go higher? To who?

Barr was also shut down against UofA. That'd make at least two consecutive games in which he didn't contribute (without me looking anything up).

I don't care for prospects who don't have a continuous motor, particularly pass rushers.