2016-17 Around the NBA

Mainstreet

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I think most of us that noticed him did, MS. Looking over his career stats he's dropped quite steadily since his rookie year, hitting a near record low in offensive efficiency for a PF this past year - Beasley type numbers (when he played for us.) I wonder if he mentally hitched his star to 3 pt shooting and when that fell apart this year his whole game collapsed. His 3pt shooting kept rising in frequency and accuracy until year before last - he peaked at 36% - then it plummeted to 19% last year. And his minutes fell with it. His steals trebled last season, too - like he suddenly started chasing them instead of defending properly...

Nicholson played fairly well when he got the minutes in Orlando then his game seemed to slip away. He is the type player one can speculate that if he played for a different team he might have had a better career. However, more likely, he lacked the physical strength to be much more than a journeyman player like Earl Clark.
 

Hoop Head

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Gambo also says the Suns will not include Jackson. I'm not sure if the Bleacher Report article credits him as the source or not because that link won't populate but I think Gambo saying that carries more weight than Bleacher Report.

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overseascardfan

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Gambo also says the Suns will not include Jackson. I'm not sure if the Bleacher Report article credits him as the source or not because that link won't populate but I think Gambo saying that carries more weight than Bleacher Report.

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Everyone including Gambo & Ash are in agreement that adding Jackson would be too much to give up for a guy who can opt out in 2 years. Gambo mentioned this almost assures CLE two way deal is dead but a 3 team trade may be possible with Irving going elsewhere. The only reason I see PHX's interest is Irving is considered a star player and fits the time line PHX is planning being only 25 years old but IMO he is too selfish and would kill team chemistry. Imagine if PHX landed him and Drummond, on paper they are two big acquisitions but I doubt they would take PHX to a contender level even if we managed to keep Booker & Jackson.
 

Mainstreet

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Everyone including Gambo & Ash are in agreement that adding Jackson would be too much to give up for a guy who can opt out in 2 years. Gambo mentioned this almost assures CLE two way deal is dead but a 3 team trade may be possible with Irving going elsewhere. The only reason I see PHX's interest is Irving is considered a star player and fits the time line PHX is planning being only 25 years old but IMO he is too selfish and would kill team chemistry. Imagine if PHX landed him and Drummond, on paper they are two big acquisitions but I doubt they would take PHX to a contender level even if we managed to keep Booker & Jackson.

I'm not a big fan of bringing Kyrie to Phoenix, however, the Suns would at least be in the conversation which is about all one can ask.
 

Hoop Head

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Everyone including Gambo & Ash are in agreement that adding Jackson would be too much to give up for a guy who can opt out in 2 years. Gambo mentioned this almost assures CLE two way deal is dead but a 3 team trade may be possible with Irving going elsewhere. The only reason I see PHX's interest is Irving is considered a star player and fits the time line PHX is planning being only 25 years old but IMO he is too selfish and would kill team chemistry. Imagine if PHX landed him and Drummond, on paper they are two big acquisitions but I doubt they would take PHX to a contender level even if we managed to keep Booker & Jackson.

I don't want to see Irving brought in but I'm all for going after Drummond. The only downside to him is his awful FT shooting. He's a solid rim protector though which helps make up for that some but knowing we'd have Jackson and Drummond as liabilities at the line towards the end of games would be a bit hard to swallow. The league is always talking about combating the Hack-A-Shaq tactics though so I guess if we got Drummond I'd jump on that bandwagon to see the rules changed.

I assume Bledsoe would be sent out in a trade to bring Drummond in, which would leave us needing a PG but maybe we could get Ish Smith back in a trade with Detroit to backup Ulis.

Ulis, Booker, Jackson, Chriss, Drummond is a solid starting 5 for the next 3-4 years.
With Reed, Warren, Bender, Williams off the bench as our 2nd unit. We'd need to draft a PG or sign one next year but I think Ish could fill the backup role for a year.
 

SirStefan32

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You know, I was all in for Drummond, but I looked at his stats, and it was quite disappointing. I don't know why, but I thought he was a better scorer. I thought he was closer to 20 points per game and closer to 60% from the free throw line. I also thought he was a better shot-blocker. It's funny how "observations" can turn out to be really distant from reality. I wouldn't trade for him if I were McD.
 

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You know, I was all in for Drummond, but I looked at his stats, and it was quite disappointing. I don't know why, but I thought he was a better scorer. I thought he was closer to 20 points per game and closer to 60% from the free throw line. I also thought he was a better shot-blocker. It's funny how "observations" can turn out to be really distant from reality. I wouldn't trade for him if I were McD.

Everything you said is true but:

Any player the Suns trade for is going to have a red flag or two. Guys that don't have red flags don't get traded.

You have to hope that in the Suns system they will be even more productive.


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GatorAZ

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You know, I was all in for Drummond, but I looked at his stats, and it was quite disappointing. I don't know why, but I thought he was a better scorer. I thought he was closer to 20 points per game and closer to 60% from the free throw line. I also thought he was a better shot-blocker. It's funny how "observations" can turn out to be really distant from reality. I wouldn't trade for him if I were McD.

From what I've gathered around some of the Pistons' forums is that he kinda mailed-it-in after getting paid. That's just a dysfunctional team in general. No leadership at all.

He's making 25+ mil a year and can't hit a FT. That's a big no for me
 

SirStefan32

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Everything you said is true but:

Any player the Suns trade for is going to have a red flag or two. Guys that don't have red flags don't get traded.

You have to hope that in the Suns system they will be even more productive.


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Oh I agree. Leonards and Durants don't get traded. Larger problem is that the Suns don't really have a system as of yet. Now, that's understandable- they are a very young team with a point guard who is not really a good facilitator, and a head coach who is not very experienced.
 

devilalum

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Oh I agree. Leonards and Durants don't get traded. Larger problem is that the Suns don't really have a system as of yet. Now, that's understandable- they are a very young team with a point guard who is not really a good facilitator, and a head coach who is not very experienced.

Instead of system maybe you have to decide if the player fits with our best players.


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Part of the issue with not having an offensive system is that our PG doesn't have a real high BB IQ that allows him to create offense for his teammates, he's capable of creating for himself and driving and dishing but that's seem to be the extent of his abilities when the coach isn't calling plays from the sideline. I think that is something both Watson and Hornacek found out after taking over as our head coach, that Bledsoe isn't that creative or good at improvising offensive sets on his own. He needs that structure on offense for him to execute well. He didn't really have that with the Clippers before coming here or at Kentucky because he backed up Chris Paul and John Wall before joining the Suns. Those 2 are probably the best pure PG's in the NBA today with really high BB IQ's.

Dragic was able to improvise and freestyle as a PG better when he was here, which is why Jeff had some success his first year coaching the team because he didn't have much of a system either. Bledsoe needs that structure though. Both Watson and Hornacek seem like motivators rather than tacticians who are good at X's and O's. Hopefully Watson has a good assistant to step up and help install an offensive system during training camp to be able to get the most out of our players this coming season. We're not going to be tanking out of the gate and I think we could surprise some teams but we need to show some improvement. I think any less than 30 wins would make this year a failure, which isn't aiming very high but around 35 wins seems like an obtainable goal.
 

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Irving strikes me as a similar player to Knight in that he's a black hole on offense. Am I wrong?
 

SirStefan32

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Irving strikes me as a similar player to Knight in that he's a black hole on offense. Am I wrong?

Well, yes and no. Biggest difference is that Irving can actually score at will. As much as he chucks, his effective field goal percentage is not bad at all. He is definitely a better player than Knight, but he has major issues. He cannot guard a chair, and he cannot really distribute that well either. I just think he is not a good fit alongside Booker.
 

Mainstreet

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Getting REALLY sick of Journalists (Bickley) saying we should trade Jackson for Irving... plus using faulty logic doing it. Irving is a lousy two year rental and Golden State is a brick wall to get through. :bang: END OF STORY!


Ahhh... that felt better! :)

I didn't read the Bickley article. If there is anything controversial he will be there digging for it.

When I read I look for new information.
 

Mainstreet

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Part of the issue with not having an offensive system is that our PG doesn't have a real high BB IQ that allows him to create offense for his teammates, he's capable of creating for himself and driving and dishing but that's seem to be the extent of his abilities when the coach isn't calling plays from the sideline. I think that is something both Watson and Hornacek found out after taking over as our head coach, that Bledsoe isn't that creative or good at improvising offensive sets on his own. He needs that structure on offense for him to execute well. He didn't really have that with the Clippers before coming here or at Kentucky because he backed up Chris Paul and John Wall before joining the Suns. Those 2 are probably the best pure PG's in the NBA today with really high BB IQ's.

Dragic was able to improvise and freestyle as a PG better when he was here, which is why Jeff had some success his first year coaching the team because he didn't have much of a system either. Bledsoe needs that structure though. Both Watson and Hornacek seem like motivators rather than tacticians who are good at X's and O's. Hopefully Watson has a good assistant to step up and help install an offensive system during training camp to be able to get the most out of our players this coming season. We're not going to be tanking out of the gate and I think we could surprise some teams but we need to show some improvement. I think any less than 30 wins would make this year a failure, which isn't aiming very high but around 35 wins seems like an obtainable goal.

If the Suns would have been in position to draft Ball, he would helped the Suns tremendously on offense. His passing skills are unique. He would have been a coach on the floor much like Steve Nash. Even a player like Len might be productive getting the ball where he can handle it.
 

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I won't quibble with any of this. Just saying the Cavs record without LeBron is super ugly and that at least raises an eyebrow for me. But again, I'd prob make that deal as long we didn't give up Jackson and our own pick.
We are not quibbling. We are just discussing.:) And the record without LeBron is noted. It might be a real thing.
 

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Getting REALLY sick of Journalists (Bickley) saying we should trade Jackson for Irving... plus using faulty logic doing it. Irving is a lousy two year rental and Golden State is a brick wall to get through. :bang: END OF STORY!


Ahhh... that felt better! :)


Bickley is awful. Somehow he's worse in his columns than he is on the radio. You can tell by reading or listening to him though that he's only a casual NBA follower, and he's barely even that. He gushes over big names and that's extent of his "coverage".

I wonder how big of name Kyrie would even be if Lebron didn't return to Cleveland or if he was one of the young pieces traded for veterans when he arrived. I think he would have made a few All-Star teams but I'm not sure he would have made the playoffs as the best player on his own team.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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Bickley is awful. Somehow he's worse in his columns than he is on the radio. You can tell by reading or listening to him though that he's only a casual NBA follower, and he's barely even that. He gushes over big names and that's extent of his "coverage".

I wonder how big of name Kyrie would even be if Lebron didn't return to Cleveland or if he was one of the young pieces traded for veterans when he arrived. I think he would have made a few All-Star teams but I'm not sure he would have made the playoffs as the best player on his own team.
How big of a name? He already had a starting marketing character (uncle drew) created for him.
 

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He is a significantly better shooter. He is a better ball handler. He is more efficient than Eric. While its not saying much, he is healthier than Eric. He can take over games on the biggest stage, which Eric has never done. He naturally plays faster than Eric. Cleveland plays more of a slow down game for LeBron's benefit. He can create his own offense in a much bigger way than Eric.

Kyrie has warts, certainly, but my goodness.

He is unquestionably a more gifted talent than Bledsoe. Much better shooter, better ball handler... health stuff, I'd say is a tossup, when you factor in that Bledsoe's missed games last season were because we were tanking. Bledsoe has had his meniscus issues spaced between several fully healthy seasons, while Irving has consistently missed anywhere from 10-30 games a year with injuries. But... that is splitting hairs (or tendons... as it were).

Where I really disagree is the idea that Irving plays at a faster pace. I've seen a lot of media quotes about how the "half court style is because of LeBron", but this is another one of the things the stats do not bear out. Irving plays at a crawl.

I don't recall if this one was linked earlier:

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/kyrie-irving-wants-to-be-a-no-1-but-hes-better-as-a-sidekick/

I wish Bledsoe played consistently at a faster and occasionally he plays really quick, especially after defensive stops, but Irving isn't the answer if we want to kick to a higher gear. He likes to dribble... and dribble... and dribble some more. He would have felt at home playing in the NBA of about '98-2005.

And, as has been mentioned often. Irving is an absolutely awful defender, who's putrid defense metrics are probably made to look better than they really are by being the beneficiary of some strong defensive teammates.

In summary, Irving is unquestionably more talented than Bledsoe, much more. But I don't know that in a 5 on 5 basketball game where you need to involve teammates on offense and... actually do something on defense, Irving would actually make us any better than Bledsoe does. If he does make us better I think the improvement would be marginal, certainly not enough to even sniff contention and IMO not enough to make the playoffs before his contract is up.

Oh, another note. I also expect that if this trade were to happen we would see Bledsoe's efficiency go up by virtue of playing with LeBron, and Irving's go down by virtue of playing with himself... so to speak.
 

Phrazbit

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The situation in Portland with their cap is a clear example of why the Suns need to be weary when it comes to TJ Warren's situation and, so far, have been very wise with Alex Len. Even with this huge cap, you can still get into cap hell if you extend every one of your role players. You end up with a hugely expensive team. Yeah, they've got depth... they also only have about 3 guys worthy of being starters.
 

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