2017-2018 Draft Prospects watch.

hsandhu

Hall of Famer
Joined
Feb 23, 2004
Posts
2,485
Reaction score
197
You can't simply look at stats with college players. In that case I guess we should just draft Young since he put up arguably the best stat line in college? Embiid and Towns played on stacked college teams and only played 21 minutes per game. They were also both very good defenders at the college level and Bagley struggled on defense this year. Bagley is simply not the prospect that those two guys were. I added Embiid because his stats were nearly identical in college to Towns. Oddly enough JJJ is putting up a nearly identical stats to those two as well.

Towns has turned into a top 15 player... and he was the safe #1 pick, but in real time in 2015 no way he was considered a better prospect than bagley was going back to bagley's high school career.

The beauty of youtube, 2017 was a stacked draft, here is jeff goodman saying 18 year old bagley have gone #1:

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media

That's why i posted towns nbadraft.net bio, that's how he was viewed in real time, no revisionist history.
 

CardsSunsDbacks

Not So Skeptical
Joined
Aug 26, 2012
Posts
10,154
Reaction score
6,609
Please, he clearly could not shake him, if that is devin booker is he getting to the rim or not??

Every nba team has more capable bigs than kevin seraphin, let alone the wings that will be defending him.
Didn't seem like he tried that hard to get past him. He tried to cross him up and get him leaning hard one way or the other and Seraphin kept his balance and thus it didn't work. Booker has had his struggles getting by some big guys as well, but when he does blow by them it is because he gains some speed first and then can use a pretty simple dribble move to get by them. Trying to dribble around a good athlete without starting on the run is not easy and the only guys that tend to do it well are extremely quick guys like Kyrie, Iverson, Francis. Guys that are quick and have great ball handling.
 

CardsSunsDbacks

Not So Skeptical
Joined
Aug 26, 2012
Posts
10,154
Reaction score
6,609
Towns has turned into a top 15 player... and he was the safe #1 pick, but in real time in 2015 no way he was considered a better prospect than bagley was going back to bagley's high school career.

The beauty of youtube, 2017 was a stacked draft, here is jeff goodman saying 18 year old bagley have gone #1:

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media

That's why i posted towns nbadraft.net bio, that's how he was viewed in real time, no revisionist history.
You used one draft sites opinion of him to make your point. There are mock drafts right now that have Bagley going as low as 5th in the draft.

https://www.si.com/nba/nba-mock-draft-2018

Does this somehow prove that JJJ and Bamba are better prospects than Bagley?
 

hsandhu

Hall of Famer
Joined
Feb 23, 2004
Posts
2,485
Reaction score
197
You used one draft sites opinion of him to make your point. There are mock drafts right now that have Bagley going as low as 5th in the draft.

https://www.si.com/nba/nba-mock-draft-2018

Does this somehow prove that JJJ and Bamba are better prospects than Bagley?

I'm comparing him to towns as a prospect from highschool to their freshman year. If 2015 karl towns was in this draft he would not have been considered far and away the number 1 prospect, which you suggested.
 

hsandhu

Hall of Famer
Joined
Feb 23, 2004
Posts
2,485
Reaction score
197
I'm open minded to doncic being this incredible player some are saying, which is why I'm watching film to try and see it.

But the doncic defenders, it's getting to the point where doncic can shoot somebody on 5th avenue and not lose a single fan.


When the suns take him, I will gladly hope that me, cheesebeef, jcsunsfan and others look like complete idiots. Nothing would make me happier.

But if he isn't a game changer, and some of the players taken after him end up being... who knows that might be the last chance in a long ass time suns had to build a championship team
 

CardsSunsDbacks

Not So Skeptical
Joined
Aug 26, 2012
Posts
10,154
Reaction score
6,609
I'm comparing him to towns as a prospect from highschool to their freshman year. If 2015 karl towns was in this draft he would not have been considered far and away the number 1 prospect, which you suggested.
Uhhh no I didn't. I said he would be ahead of Bagley and I stand by that. I personally have Bagley somewhere between 3-4 in this draft. I like Ayton and Doncic more, but am on the fence with putting JJJ ahead of him as well. The question with JJJ is if his lack of numbers (similar to that of Towns and Embiid) were because of being on a stacked team that didn't ask too much of him (they were pretty stacked) or because he just didn't have the talent to take over games? I tend to lean more towards the former as he appears to have all of the talent needed to be a great player, but just didn't seem to be asked to play a big role on offense and also played low minutes. All of which is very similar to the situation of Town and Embiid in college.
 

CardsSunsDbacks

Not So Skeptical
Joined
Aug 26, 2012
Posts
10,154
Reaction score
6,609
I'm open minded to doncic being this incredible player some are saying, which is why I'm watching film to try and see it.

But the doncic defenders, it's getting to the point where doncic can shoot somebody on 5th avenue and not lose a single fan.


When the suns take him, I will gladly hope that me, cheesebeef, jcsunsfan and others look like complete idiots. Nothing would make me happier.

But if he isn't a game changer, and some of the players taken after him end up being... who knows that might be the last chance in a long ass time suns had to build a championship team
Which is why I wouldn't dare take him over Ayton. Ayton to me is probably the most sure fire game changer in this draft. His combination of size, skill, strength, athleticism and production would be impossible to pass on. I just don't feel as strongly about the other bigs in this draft to feel much pressure taking Doncic over them. If I had a higher opinion of Bagley than I might agree that he should go over Doncic.
 

JCSunsfan

ASFN Icon
Joined
Oct 24, 2002
Posts
22,114
Reaction score
6,547
Atyon, Bagley, Young, Bamba, Jackson, Doncic, Porter.

That's my order as of today. I would be intrigued by putting Porter above Doncic, but there are just too many unknowns with Porter. I would absolutely consider putting Mikal Bridges above Doncic, but the Suns can't really use another wing.
 

hsandhu

Hall of Famer
Joined
Feb 23, 2004
Posts
2,485
Reaction score
197
Uhhh no I didn't. I said he would be ahead of Bagley and I stand by that. I personally have Bagley somewhere between 3-4 in this draft. I like Ayton and Doncic more, but am on the fence with putting JJJ ahead of him as well. The question with JJJ is if his lack of numbers (similar to that of Towns and Embiid) were because of being on a stacked team that didn't ask too much of him (they were pretty stacked) or because he just didn't have the talent to take over games? I tend to lean more towards the former as he appears to have all of the talent needed to be a great player, but just didn't seem to be asked to play a big role on offense and also played low minutes. All of which is very similar to the situation of Town and Embiid in college.

He would be ahead maybe in some mocks, and surely not ahead in others. It wouldnt be clear cut. You stated matter of factly he was a better prospect. In 2015, he wasnt considered a clear better prospect than.... Jahlil Okafor!

https://www.si.com/nba/2015/04/02/jahlil-okafor-karl-anthony-towns-nba-draft-duke-kentucky

BTW it's hilarious reading supposedly competent nba writers like chris mannix and lee jenkins in this piece... Clear cut okafor, with comparisons to tim duncan.

The only place there is no accountability for being so wrong is sports writers. A gm messes up like that they are done forever.
 

CardsSunsDbacks

Not So Skeptical
Joined
Aug 26, 2012
Posts
10,154
Reaction score
6,609
He would be ahead maybe in some mocks, and surely not ahead in others. It wouldnt be clear cut. You stated matter of factly he was a better prospect. In 2015, he wasnt considered a clear better prospect than.... Jahlil Okafor!

https://www.si.com/nba/2015/04/02/jahlil-okafor-karl-anthony-towns-nba-draft-duke-kentucky

BTW it's hilarious reading supposedly competent nba writers like chris mannix and lee jenkins in this piece... Clear cut okafor, with comparisons to tim duncan.

The only place there is no accountability for being so wrong is sports writers. A gm messes up like that they are done forever.
Towns was the consensus #1 pick on all of the draft sites and according to all of the experts. Here is a link that actually lists a whole bunch of draft sites mock drafts and also has consensus listings as well. I can't find one that suggested that Okafor should go ahead of Towns.

http://www.nba.com/news/2015-consensus-mock-draft/
 

AzStevenCal

ASFN IDOL
Supporting Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2004
Posts
36,760
Reaction score
16,531
Towns was the consensus #1 pick on all of the draft sites and according to all of the experts. Here is a link that actually lists a whole bunch of draft sites mock drafts and also has consensus listings as well. I can't find one that suggested that Okafor should go ahead of Towns.

http://www.nba.com/news/2015-consensus-mock-draft/

By the end of the season Towns was the clear leader IMO. However, there were a lot of us that had Okafor at the top of the draft early in the season. I think I was maybe the last fan to jump off the Okafor bandwagon that year.
 

hsandhu

Hall of Famer
Joined
Feb 23, 2004
Posts
2,485
Reaction score
197
Towns was the consensus #1 pick on all of the draft sites and according to all of the experts. Here is a link that actually lists a whole bunch of draft sites mock drafts and also has consensus listings as well. I can't find one that suggested that Okafor should go ahead of Towns.

http://www.nba.com/news/2015-consensus-mock-draft/

Was there LARGE separation in how he was viewed compared to okafor, was he head and shoulders above him? i just posted an article 2 months before the draft with credible nba writers split.

The point being 2015 towns would not be considered in a separate tier than 2018 bagley or a clearly better prospect as you stated. if you are arguing that you are just changing history.
 

Hoop Head

ASFN Icon
Joined
Feb 4, 2005
Posts
17,377
Reaction score
12,560
Location
Tempe, AZ
Towns is clearly a Center in the NBA while Bagley projects to be a PF. I get that you're comparing hype but those 2 don't really register as comparable talent to each other, IMO. I think too much is being made about the hype surrounding them. I think Bagley will be a good pro, not a franchise player like Ayton could be but he could end up being a really good #2 or #3 for a team for years to come. Since we have Booker and Jackson, he'd fit nicely with the Suns core. If we didn't have those 2 and our first piece of a rebuild was Bagley, I'd be worried about his future.
 

CardsSunsDbacks

Not So Skeptical
Joined
Aug 26, 2012
Posts
10,154
Reaction score
6,609
Was there LARGE separation in how he was viewed compared to okafor, was he head and shoulders above him? i just posted an article 2 months before the draft with credible nba writers split.

The point being 2015 towns would not be considered in a separate tier than 2018 bagley or a clearly better prospect as you stated. if you are arguing that you are just changing history.
And yet there is plenty of split between Bagley, JJJ, Doncic by experts right now. Not everyone is as high as you are on Bagley and that includes some of the experts too. He seems to be somewhat of a love/hate prospect. Some think he will be great and should go top two and some have him as low as 5th or 6th in the draft. If he is such a can't miss prospect than why isn't he consistently listed next to Ayton at the top of draft boards? Are you suggesting that all of the top 5 in this draft were better prospects than Towns? Because Bagley goes as low as 5th in some of the mock drafts. Towns was a two way prospect coming out of college and Bagley's struggles on defense are well noted at this point.
 

hsandhu

Hall of Famer
Joined
Feb 23, 2004
Posts
2,485
Reaction score
197
I said "Do i think bagley can be at the level of say karl anthony towns, yes I do."

I said i think, my opinion, not a sure thing. But go ahead and misrepresent what i said.

"Are you suggesting that all of the top 5 in this draft were better prospects than Towns? "

I also said 2015 towns would be ahead of bagley in some mocks but easily could be behind him others, and showed you what people were writing in 2015. Again misreprenting what I said
 

CardsSunsDbacks

Not So Skeptical
Joined
Aug 26, 2012
Posts
10,154
Reaction score
6,609
I said "Do i think bagley can be at the level of say karl anthony towns, yes I do."

I said i think, my opinion, not a sure thing. But go ahead and misrepresent what i said.

"Are you suggesting that all of the top 5 in this draft were better prospects than Towns? "

I also said 2015 towns would be ahead of bagley in some mocks but easily could be behind him others, and showed you what people were writing in 2015. Again misreprenting what I said
I think Towns would be consistently be ahead of Bagley in this draft. He was the better two way prospect and thus I suspect that would have had teams consistently putting him with Ayton at the top of the draft.
 

pokerface

ASFN Addict
Joined
May 20, 2004
Posts
5,369
Reaction score
807
To me Doncic seems the next sure fire player behind Ayton. In one way he even surpasses Ayton with a stronger desire to win. I don't read any chatter about Doncic taking games off...everyone that knows him or plays with him refers to him as a winner.
 

hsandhu

Hall of Famer
Joined
Feb 23, 2004
Posts
2,485
Reaction score
197
Coach k in jan:

"He's the most unique player we've had here at Duke during my 38 years," says Blue Devils coach Mike Krzyzewski. "He has everything. In some respects, Kyrie [Irving] was like that. But Kyrie got hurt after eight games."

"He is not a good runner; he's an amazing runner. And then he's an amazing repeated jumper. In other words, he doesn't really take time to even land, he just pops right back up. He wants to learn, he has no demons, he's a great kid, he's smart, and has an incredible motor. He never has a bad day. He's a treasure, really. He's going to be one of the great players in the NBA during his time."

The athletic stuff he describes is not debateable, watch the video it's obvious.
 

pokerface

ASFN Addict
Joined
May 20, 2004
Posts
5,369
Reaction score
807
good gravy... we're going to have this argument for another 2.5 months, huh? blegh.

Well jeesh cheese this is like the most important suns draft I can remember. This could be like the 1984 draft. They still talk about that draft!
 

hsandhu

Hall of Famer
Joined
Feb 23, 2004
Posts
2,485
Reaction score
197
good gravy... we're going to have this argument for another 2.5 months, huh? blegh.

More like 5 years when they take doncic.

But I'll probably have tapped out at some point, as doncic can't get by brook lopez on a switch and people here are telling you and I how lopez's lateral quickness is underrated.
 

CardsSunsDbacks

Not So Skeptical
Joined
Aug 26, 2012
Posts
10,154
Reaction score
6,609
More like 5 years when they take doncic.

But I'll probably have tapped out at some point, as doncic can't get by brook lopez on a switch and people here are telling you and I how lopez's lateral quickness is underrated.
And you complain about me taking your comments out of context...

There is a world of difference between the lateral quickness of Lopez and Seraphin. Sure Lopez is a solid NBA player and Seraphin washed out, but it isn't because of his lateral quickness.........................
 

SirStefan32

Krycek, Alex Krycek
Joined
Oct 15, 2002
Posts
18,495
Reaction score
4,905
Location
Harrisburg, PA
So, I didn't watch that clip, and I don't recall that game, but we are literally talking about one possession here. When you have a mismatch, you make a call. Start driving, keep driving, step back and take a three, etc. Even Westbrook steps back every now and then. The whole argument is silly. Sometimes you shoot a jumper over someone, and sometimes you drive.
 

hsandhu

Hall of Famer
Joined
Feb 23, 2004
Posts
2,485
Reaction score
197
So, I didn't watch that clip, and I don't recall that game, but we are literally talking about one possession here. When you have a mismatch, you make a call. Start driving, keep driving, step back and take a three, etc. Even Westbrook steps back every now and then. The whole argument is silly. Sometimes you shoot a jumper over someone, and sometimes you drive.

I watched the whole game, there are more possessions like that, I can pull more out.

dragic got by defenders pretty easily
 

hsandhu

Hall of Famer
Joined
Feb 23, 2004
Posts
2,485
Reaction score
197
Go watch 1:39:40, some impressive dribbling but not going anywhere as he can't shake the defender.

Unless this diot guy is the French Bruce Bowen, that's not encouraging.
 
Top