2018-19 Season | Point Guard Discussion

[1Sun]

Especially if we can start winning with him here. Which with him we should realistically only be a couple solid vet rotation players from being pretty good.

And a coach who knows what the heck he's doing...

 

[overseascardfan]

I was reminiscing about the Big 0 -- the great Oscar Robertson. Take a look at his first 5 years and his overall stats. As a Point Guard, he averaged a triple-double in his 2nd season and narrowly missed it in his rookie, 3rd, 4th and 5th seasons. Over his first five seasons, he averaged a triple-double! He also averaged a triple-double in his first playoff series and came close in each of his next four.

Oscar is 80 years old. How about we sign him to work with our Point Guards. Hell, let's sign him to play Point Guard! Betcha he could make Ayton a 30-point scorer and play defense the same as Booker.

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I honestly consider Big O the greatest NBA player. The near triple double averages through the first 5 years of his career was impressive but he also shot 48% FG / 84% FT for his career and was a very good defensive player despite steals, blocks and 3PT stats not recorded back then.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I honestly consider Big O the greatest NBA player. The near triple double averages through the first 5 years of his career was impressive but he also shot 48% FG / 84% FT for his career and was a very good defensive player despite steals, blocks and 3PT stats not recorded back then.

Having grown up watching him play (occasionally, they weren't on TV much back then) I honestly consider him to be one of the more overrated "greats". He was good but he had nowhere near the impact that Russell or Wilt had. IMO far too much has been made of his historic triple double season and his stretch of averaging triple doubles.

I remember reading an analysis of his top year versus Magic's best and Johnson beat him, pace adjusted, quite easily (according to the article, I didn't do the math). Consider that, back then, they were putting up something like 20+ shots a game more than any other era although I'd imagine our current era is gaining on them. For decades, though, he was the prototype of the "empty stats" player and he never enjoyed any real team success until he was arguably the 3rd best player on his team behind Jabbar and Dandridge. From a pure stats standpoint, he's a top 5 player, but I wouldn't even put him in the top 20.

 

[overseascardfan]

Having grown up watching him play (occasionally, they weren't on TV much back then) I honestly consider him to be one of the more overrated "greats". He was good but he had nowhere near the impact that Russell or Wilt had. IMO far too much has been made of his historic triple double season and his stretch of averaging triple doubles.

I remember reading an analysis of his top year versus Magic's best and Johnson beat him, pace adjusted, quite easily (according to the article, I didn't do the math). Consider that, back then, they were putting up something like 20+ shots a game more than any other era although I'd imagine our current era is gaining on them. For decades, though, he was the prototype of the "empty stats" player and he never enjoyed any real team success until he was arguably the 3rd best player on his team behind Jabbar and Dandridge. From a pure stats standpoint, he's a top 5 player, but I wouldn't even put him in the top 20.

Jabbar didn't come into the league until 1968, Robertson carried CIN until he was dealt to MIL where he and Jabbar guided them to their first title. No one had as much impact than Russell or Chamberlain in that era but before there was a Magic Johnson or Jason Kidd there was Oscar. No guard up until Magic or Kidd had that capability to put up triple doubles with regularity like Robertson. Hell it took 55 years to repeat his accomplishment in the 1961-62 season. He may not have the number of titles of a Bird, Magic, Kareem, Jordan, etc but if he was on the Boston Celtics in the 1960's he definitely would. Wilt, Russell, Jabbar & Johnson were on much more talented teams than Robertson in their careers.

 

[Mainstreet]

Jabbar didn't come into the league until 1968, Robertson carried CIN until he was dealt to MIL where he and Jabbar guided them to their first title. No one had as much impact than Russell or Chamberlain in that era but before there was a Magic Johnson or Jason Kidd there was Oscar. No guard up until Magic or Kidd had that capability to put up triple doubles with regularity like Robertson. Hell it took 55 years to repeat his accomplishment in the 1961-62 season. He may not have the number of titles of a Bird, Magic, Kareem, Jordan, etc but if he was on the Boston Celtics in the 1960's he definitely would. Wilt, Russell, Jabbar & Johnson were on much more talented teams than Robertson in their careers.

Agree. Oscar Robertson was definitely not overrated.

 

[GatorAZ]

Give me The Logo...

In the seventh game of the 1969 Finals, West played with a leg injury and had 42 points, 13 rebounds and 12 assists -- and his Los Angeles Lakers lost. The performance moved Celtics center Bill Russell to say, "Los Angeles has not won the championship, but Jerry West is a champion."

 

[sunsfan88]

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[Mainstreet]

Jackson and Warren are reportedly not on the trading block.

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[Phrazbit]

Jackson should be viewed as an premium asset. He has a path to stardom in him. He's a different player than Shawn Marion, but he can totally fill that role, a swiss army knife defender who can help on offense in a lot of different ways.

IMO, Ball is more quantifiable as a decent starter and at a position of need for us... but I see zero path to stardom for him. I don't see how a team in contention can make consistent use of a "playmaker" who cannot shoot and can't be left in the game late because they are, truly, historically bad at the line.

Factor in Ball's dad being cancer by proxy... IMO, JJ for Ball isn't even a discussion. And I don't think Ball's dad can simply be ignored. I have little doubt that his recent bombastics has made an already tense Laker locker-room even worse. His, somewhat, silence this year was only because LeBron is on the Lakers had has far more clout than Ball, but with the Lakers struggling and trying to make trades he's raised the bar on all levels of his toxicity.

Unless the Suns win rate immediately went up and Lonzo was playing hefty minutes LaVar would be even worse here. Demanding the Suns bring in his lousy other kids and campaigning to be named the team's head coach. It isn't even a reach... he basically has called for the Suns to do all that while Lonzo is still on the Lakers.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Jackson should be viewed as an premium asset. He has a path to stardom in him. He's a different player than Shawn Marion, but he can totally fill that role, a swiss army knife defender who can help on offense in a lot of different ways.

IMO, Ball is more quantifiable as a decent starter and at a position of need for us... but I see zero path to stardom for him. I don't see how a team in contention can make consistent use of a "playmaker" who cannot shoot and can't be left in the game late because they are, truly, historically bad at the line.

Factor in Ball's dad being cancer by proxy... IMO, JJ for Ball isn't even a discussion. And I don't think Ball's dad can simply be ignored. I have little doubt that his recent bombastics has made an already tense Laker locker-room even worse. His, somewhat, silence this year was only because LeBron is on the Lakers had has far more clout than Ball, but with the Lakers struggling and trying to make trades he's raised the bar on all levels of his toxicity.

Unless the Suns win rate immediately went up and Lonzo was playing hefty minutes LaVar would be even worse here. Demanding the Suns bring in his lousy other kids and campaigning to be named the team's head coach. It isn't even a reach... he basically has called for the Suns to do all that while Lonzo is still on the Lakers.

Who cares what Lavar thinks or calls for? Lonzo does not listen to him. No one else should either.

 

[Mainstreet]

Listening to the recent Lavar Ball interview locally took away my interest. I guess if the Suns could get Lonzo for expiring contracts like Daniels and Bender and the Bucks pick it might be worth considering.

 

[overseascardfan]

Listening to the recent Lavar Ball interview locally took away my interest. I guess if the Suns could get Lonzo for expiring contracts like Daniels and Bender and the Bucks pick it might be worth considering.

Supposedly LA is only interested in trading Ball in a package for AD. Burns & Gambo (take it for what’s it worth) mentioned yesterday only way to get Ball is to get him from NO as LA has no interest in any PHX wing player.

 

[Mainstreet]

Supposedly LA is only interested in trading Ball in a package for AD. Burns & Gambo (take it for what’s it worth) mentioned yesterday only way to get Ball is to get him from NO as LA has no interest in any PHX wing player.

I think this is the only way the Suns acquire Ball if it happens.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Jackson should be viewed as an premium asset. He has a path to stardom in him. He's a different player than Shawn Marion, but he can totally fill that role, a swiss army knife defender who can help on offense in a lot of different ways.

IMO, Ball is more quantifiable as a decent starter and at a position of need for us... but I see zero path to stardom for him. I don't see how a team in contention can make consistent use of a "playmaker" who cannot shoot and can't be left in the game late because they are, truly, historically bad at the line.

Factor in Ball's dad being cancer by proxy... IMO, JJ for Ball isn't even a discussion. And I don't think Ball's dad can simply be ignored. I have little doubt that his recent bombastics has made an already tense Laker locker-room even worse. His, somewhat, silence this year was only because LeBron is on the Lakers had has far more clout than Ball, but with the Lakers struggling and trying to make trades he's raised the bar on all levels of his toxicity.

Unless the Suns win rate immediately went up and Lonzo was playing hefty minutes LaVar would be even worse here. Demanding the Suns bring in his lousy other kids and campaigning to be named the team's head coach. It isn't even a reach... he basically has called for the Suns to do all that while Lonzo is still on the Lakers.

Absolutely. If Ball was always healthy, had a set of parents that could pass for the Cleavers, shot 90% from the free throw line and truly wanted to play in Phoenix, I still wouldn't trade Josh for him. I might give up Warren and even a pick or two but Jackson, Bridges, Ayton and Booker are only available for superstar trades IMO. And no, I'm not suggesting any of them are superstars but none of them have hit their ceiling and I wouldn't trade off of them until they did unless a very good player was coming our way.

 

[Mainstreet]

I'm still looking for a minor trade for a point guard (involving a second round pick) to appease my trade appetite.

 

[1Sun]

I'm still looking for a minor trade for a point guard (involving a second round pick) to appease my trade appetite.

Unfortunately it looks like ownership/management is going to be dumb enough to think that Tyler Johnson is a point guard.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Listening to the recent Lavar Ball interview locally took away my interest. I guess if the Suns could get Lonzo for expiring contracts like Daniels and Bender and the Bucks pick it might be worth considering.

LaVar is our best friend at the moment. He lowers his own son's trade value.

 

[JCSunsfan]

All JJ has to do to really make a difference in his game is to stop the stinking turnovers.

 

[Mainstreet]

LaVar is our best friend at the moment. He lowers his own son's trade value.

I think so. He sure did it for me.

 

[Hoop Head]

I'm still looking for a minor trade for a point guard (involving a second round pick) to appease my trade appetite.

Hate to break it to you but I believe the Tyler Johnson trade is the closest we'll come to trading for a PG this deadline.


I know one of the talking heads said they were surprised this deal took so long to materialize because it had been something that both Miami and Phoenix had worked on since December but I don't know if I buy that. I know Tyler Johnson isn't a big name but it seems like every move the Suns make or don't make now has one "insider" saying they knew about it months ago yet they have zero proof they did. If they were truly an insider of some sort then they would have floated the rumor out there, like other deals get talked about, even if they don't happen.

 

[ColdPickleNachos]

LaVar is our best friend at the moment. He lowers his own son's trade value.

Speaking of which...

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[JCSunsfan]

Hate to break it to you but I believe the Tyler Johnson trade is the closest we'll come to trading for a PG this deadline.


I know one of the talking heads said they were surprised this deal took so long to materialize because it had been something that both Miami and Phoenix had worked on since December but I don't know if I buy that. I know Tyler Johnson isn't a big name but it seems like every move the Suns make or don't make now has one "insider" saying they knew about it months ago yet they have zero proof they did. If they were truly an insider of some sort then they would have floated the rumor out there, like other deals get talked about, even if they don't happen.

I think lots of discussions go on. Most don't happen.

 

[Hoop Head]

I think lots of discussions go on. Most don't happen.

I agree with that but I follow the NBA as a whole and not just the Suns. It seems to be a pattern ever since McD was let go that every Suns move that has happened causes someone to claim they had knowledge of it but they never discussed it previously, despite their job is discussing potential trades they hear about. The Suns seem to have that happen more than most other teams and I'm not sure why. I know we suck but the Bulls, Magic, and Cleveland do also and they get talked about a lot in regards to potential moves that are just adding a bench player.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Speaking of which...

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I hate that anyone gives that buffoon a platform.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I hate that anyone gives that buffoon a platform.

Earl Watson said yesterday that he is a typical AAU dad, its just that people pay attention to him for some reason.