2018 Playoffs Thread

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Neither Kobe or Ginobli were more thuggish than Raja Bell. That he hasn't been mentioned yet shows the sort of Phoenix bias. He's definitely in that class with them though, at his most thuggish around the same time period also. I don't mind players like that so much as long as they back it up to a degree. The ones that really bother me are the Morrii, the fake tough guys, who only try assaulting smaller players and then deny it when confronted. They've gotten tough with coaches and guards throughout their career, and managers, but no one that is close to the same size. They would have been knocked out of the league if they played in the 80's or 90's.

Hmm was Bell a thug? He was definitely our most hard nosed player and he DEFINITELY purposefully clotheslined Kobe, but I don’t remember him doing that stuff otherwise. I’m not saying he didn’t. I just don’t recall. And his clothesline was retaliation for Kobe’s elbow attack.

 

[Hoop Head]

Hmm was Bell a thug? He was definitely our most hard nosed player and he DEFINITELY purposefully clotheslined Kobe, but I don’t remember him doing that stuff otherwise. I’m not saying he didn’t. I just don’t recall. And his clothesline was retaliation for Kobe’s elbow attack.

I would say he was. The Kobe clothesline is unquestionable. If you don't call that dirty then you're not judging things fairly. It may have been retaliatory but that's no excuse. That's the only clothesline I've seen in retaliation before. Usually you'll see players hip check or take a shot at a guy when they go up for a dunk or layup. The clothesline wasn't close to a basketball move.

Beyond that, he would flop a lot, more than a player of his caliber should have. He's often listed on most "20 dirtiest players" lists and his time with the Jazz is mentioned as well as his time in Phoenix. So there is a lot we didn't see. I don't think he became known as a dirty player until the Kobe incident. After that he had a reputation and players would try him more, he also wouldn't allow others to get away with much in way of tossing elbows like Kobe. So I think it's sort of the case of 1 incident made the player rather than that incident being part of a string of bad behavior. I remember him getting in quite a few scuffles after that playoff series. So perhaps it's more of how he was viewed and smaller incidents were played up because of who he was. Like if Ron Artest looked at a player funny he would get T'd up for fear of another "Malice in the Palace" incident. He wasn't a choir boy by any means but he couldn't do much after that incident, similar to Bell, without being called out for it.

Here is one list that has him at #10, but it only talks up the Kobe clothesline.

https://www.complex.com/sports/2013/05/the-dirtiest-players-in-nba-history/

Another that talks up the Kobe hit, he's 29

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...ory?search_query=nba dirtiest players#slide23

 

[Western Font]

I was going to mention Bell as exactly the player we would forgive for the same kinds of infractions. If the clothesline had happened outside the paint and closer to the LA bench instead of the Suns, and a couple Lakers stepped onto the court... in isolation it wouldn’t be that different than what happened in San Antonio the following year.

Though I’d bet no Lakers would have been suspended, which is the continuing frustration of the Horry situation. Also, though Laker fans hate Bell, and the Suns eliminated them two years in a row, it was basically sandwiched by a Laker three-peat and repeat, so it’s not like the Suns really denied Laker fans anything as a franchise.

And, of course, the Spurs also had Bowen on the roster, so it’s easier to view it as part of the Spurs identity at the time.

 

[Russ Smith]

I would say he was. The Kobe clothesline is unquestionable. If you don't call that dirty then you're not judging things fairly. It may have been retaliatory but that's no excuse. That's the only clothesline I've seen in retaliation before. Usually you'll see players hip check or take a shot at a guy when they go up for a dunk or layup. The clothesline wasn't close to a basketball move.

Beyond that, he would flop a lot, more than a player of his caliber should have. He's often listed on most "20 dirtiest players" lists and his time with the Jazz is mentioned as well as his time in Phoenix. So there is a lot we didn't see. I don't think he became known as a dirty player until the Kobe incident. After that he had a reputation and players would try him more, he also wouldn't allow others to get away with much in way of tossing elbows like Kobe. So I think it's sort of the case of 1 incident made the player rather than that incident being part of a string of bad behavior. I remember him getting in quite a few scuffles after that playoff series. So perhaps it's more of how he was viewed and smaller incidents were played up because of who he was. Like if Ron Artest looked at a player funny he would get T'd up for fear of another "Malice in the Palace" incident. He wasn't a choir boy by any means but he couldn't do much after that incident, similar to Bell, without being called out for it.

Here is one list that has him at #10, but it only talks up the Kobe clothesline.

https://www.complex.com/sports/2013/05/the-dirtiest-players-in-nba-history/

Another that talks up the Kobe hit, he's 29

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/530978-the-50-dirtiest-players-in-nba-history?search_query=nba dirtiest players#slide23

The worst clothesline was the one on Rambis by Boston. Everyone remembers it as McHale taking him down but if you actually watch that play he got clotheslined twice. Gerald Henderson came first and got him up around the head with his right hand very briefly and then McHale finished him off with the left across the neck. I think if that happened in a playoff series today McHale would be suspended for several games.

 

[Russ Smith]

I would add, to my knowledge the dirtiest play in the Cavs/Warriors series wasn't even a play. It was kendrick Perkins, who wasn't even a player suited up he was in street clothes behind the bench. He stuck his foot out and tried to trip Curry as he was backing into the bench after shooting an off balance 3 at the end of teh quarter. I mentioned it before the Warriors announcing team said the reason it got so heated with him and Curry was that he was bragging to Curry that he tried to trip him.

I am pretty sure the NBA didn't even fine Perkins, remember he had "confrontation" with Drake during the Cavs and Raptors series so it wasn't his first rodeo. But I'm fairly sure we all consider him to be a thug.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I guess for me you’re a thug if you’re an instigator. I always thought bell would go off if retaliating. Not saying that’s right, but it’s certwinly different.

Comparing his clothesline to horrys hip check is apples and oranges. I’m pretty sure horry’s move was retaliation for the suns winning - no one cheap shorted him or any other spur. As detailed everywhere, raja clotheslined Kobe due to all the elbows to the head he was taking. Two very different scenarios.

 

[Western Font]

That’s true, which is why I said ‘in isolation,’ but it’s true he Horry check was unprovoked.

It’s funny, makes me think of the NHL instigator penalty, which was intended to prevent escalation, but also had the effect of letting minor dirty plays go unresponded to, and left stars and scorers more vulnerable to cheap play.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

That’s true, which is why I said ‘in isolation,’ but it’s true he Horry check was unprovoked.

It’s funny, makes me think of the NHL instigator penalty, which was intended to prevent escalation, but also had the effect of letting minor dirty plays go unresponded to, and left stars and scorers more vulnerable to cheap play.

But that kind of stuff doesn’t exist in quite the same environment in the nba as was the culture in the nhl.