3-4 defense

[Shane]

Ok I dont understand all the nuances of this defense. Based on the following list of players who do you 3-4 experts expect to be starting? Where do you expect them to start? How exactly do their individual responsabilities change in this defense compared to what we did with a 4-3? Do our our players overall seem suited to be able to play this type of D? Any and all ?'s that can be answeed will be much appreciated!

We have the following players:

LB's:

Carlos Dansby
Gerald Hayes
Buster Davis
Darryl Blackstock
Monty Beisel
Brandon Johnson

DL:

Alan Branch
Bertrand Berry
Chike Okeafor
Kendrick Clancy
Gabe Watson
Darnell Dockett
Calvin Pace
Johnathan Lewis
Antonio Smith

 

[ThunderCard]

Looking over the personnel this team should actually be more at a 5-2 then a 4-3 or a 3-4. On the line we could start

Bertrand Berry RDE
Darnell Dockett RDT
Alan Branch NT
Kendrick Clancy LDT
Chike Okeafor LDE

w two MLB/OLB
Gerald Hayes MLB/OLB
Carlos Dansby MLB/OLB

Theoretically we should be able to stop the run really well.

 

[ThunderCard]

Also I realize we are not going to the 5-2, but looking at the personnel it might not be a bad idea

 

[nathan]

For reference here's the size of the Steelers' front 7 last year:
LDE Aaron Smith-6'5" 298
NT Casey Hampton-6'1" 325
RDE Brett Keisel-6'5" 285

LOLB Clark Haggans-6'4" 243
LILB James Farrior-6'2" 243
RILB Larry Foote-6'1" 239
ROLB Joey POrter-6'3" 250

 

[RON_IN_OC]

OLB's - Okeafer and Dansby
ILB's - Davis and Hayes

Everyone else rotates in and out.

 

[Redsz]

Generally, the D-line in the 3-4 has more of a 2 gap responsibility. Meaning that they have to protect the backers and stop the run.

However, the Cowboys are moving towards more one gap for their D-line so that they can get after the passer. Luis Castillo, who is a 3-4 DE for SD had 7 sacks this year. So just because they are 3-4 doesn't mean the line can't get after the passer (which is good news for Dockett).

I'm guessing we will see:

DE: Dockett.
NT: Clancy.
DE: Branch.

Gabe Waston will back up/rotate the nose. While Smith will back up/rotate at DE.

The OLB's in the 3-4 are generally bigger. They are almost 4-3 DE's in terms of size. This is because they are more exposed and have to take on linemen while still stopping the run and rushing the passer.

IMO, Chike Okeafor is going to blow up in this scheme because he is so effective standing up as a roaming rush backer. It will be intreasting to see how Berry adjusts to playing standing up, but he is a former LB, so I doubt this will be too much of a shock too him. He has the size at 6'3 270, but will he hold up against the run?

OLB: Berry.
MLB: Hayes.
MLB: Dansby.
OLB: Chike.

Blackstock and Pace will back up/rotate at OLB. Beisel and Davis will back up/roate at MLB.

I personally think it looks pretty solid.

 

[CtCardinals78]

We need secondary help very badly. If you can't get to the passer in the 3-4 you're toast. Everything is predicated on speed. Branch is not fast, or a pass rusher. Dockett is good but he needs to show more effort. Berry needs to stay healthy. We have a good starting point but if we are going to be primarily a 3-4 we are in for a very long year.

 

[Redsz]

The 3-4 DE's responsibility is not to rush the passer, CT. It's two gap. The fact that a 6'6 330 lb linemen isn't 'fast' dosn't mean 2/5ths of crap all.

 

[Skkorpion]

Also I realize we are not going to the 5-2, but looking at the personnel it might not be a bad idea

Thunder, Pendergast loves playing a 5 man line as a change-up. I think you'll see it often. You're on to something.

 

[CtCardinals78]

The 3-4 DE's responsibility is not to rush the passer, CT. It's two gap. The fact that a 6'6 330 lb linemen isn't 'fast' dosn't mean 2/5ths of crap all.

I know what you're saying but we will need to get penetration and if the OLB's aren't fast enough or powerful enough to get there youre screwed. That's the point I was trying to make sorry. Doesn't change the fact that we need to come out of this with a CB. I love the 3-4 it's my fav. defensive scheme but you really need the right personal to run it and I hope we do and we can.

 

[Nasser22]

Well I don't see a 2nd round CB helping us much at all. I was upset that they didn't pick up one of the free agent CB's the last two years. We are extremely weak at that position, but I think the rest of our D is pretty good now.

 

[Goldfield]

If you can't get to the passer in the 3-4 you're toast.

You can say that about any D.

Branch is not fast, or a pass rusher.

Branch is an athlete, he can put pressure on the QB and can run well for his size.

Dockett is good but he needs to show more effort.

I agree


The beauty of drafting Branch is that it give the Cards MANY options. They can play a 4-3, a 3-4, a 5-2.

Branch gives is tuffness, he gives us much needed size. I like Dockett but he does get pushed around at times.

I love the fact that we can put Branch next to Watson on goaline or short yardage & have a good chance of stuffing the middle.

 

[CtCardinals78]

You can say that about any D.


Branch is an athlete, he can put pressure on the QB and can run well for his size.

I agree


The beauty of drafting Branch is that it give the Cards MANY options. They can play a 4-3, a 3-4, a 5-2.

Branch gives is tuffness, he gives us much needed size. I like Dockett but he does get pushed around at times.

I love the fact that we can put Branch next to Watson on goaline or short yardage & have a good chance of stuffing the middle.

As long as we win I don't care who we get. This 13 years of waiting around yeah after year watching a sucky team is really getting old. But at least we have the talent we never had that before.

 

[Duckjake]

Looking over the personnel this team should actually be more at a 5-2 then a 4-3 or a 3-4. On the line we could start

Bertrand Berry RDE
Darnell Dockett RDT
Alan Branch NT
Kendrick Clancy LDT
Chike Okeafor LDE

w two MLB/OLB
Gerald Hayes MLB/OLB
Carlos Dansby MLB/OLB

Theoretically we should be able to stop the run really well

My word! It's the BIG NICKEL!

If anyone sees Keith Rucker or Reuben Davis on the sidelines as advisors at the next mini-camp we'll know you're on to something.

Bugel's BIG NICKEL held opponents to only 269 points in 1993 (7th in the NFL).

 

[CardinalLaw]

From I took from the articles Ive read about it. It would be something like this.

Ends
Dockett
Branch(play end and in the middle)

Middle
?

Outside Linebackers
Berry
Okefor

Middle LB's
Dansby
Hayes and Buster Davis

Thats what they were playing in mini camp anyway.

 

[100%CardsFan]

From I took from the articles Ive read about it. It would be something like this.

Ends
Dockett
Branch(play end and in the middle)

Middle
?

Outside Linebackers
Berry
Okefor

Middle LB's
Dansby
Hayes and Buster Davis

Thats what they were playing in mini camp anyway.

Im gonna get a ? jersey..

 

[ThunderCard]

My word! It's the BIG NICKEL!

If anyone sees Keith Rucker or Reuben Davis on the sidelines as advisors at the next mini-camp we'll know you're on to something.

Bugel's BIG NICKEL held opponents to only 269 points in 1993 (7th in the NFL).

I like the idea. Also with that many DT we should utilize them the best way possible. We just don't have the LB's to pull off a 3-4. Berry and Okeafor to OLB ?? Just does not look very enticing ...

 

[schwalbhimself]

its karlos not carlos

 

[100%CardsFan]

its karlos not carlos

With a sig like that. Thank God you dont post alot.

 

[kerouac9]

Ok I dont understand all the nuances of this defense. Based on the following list of players who do you 3-4 experts expect to be starting? Where do you expect them to start? How exactly do their individual responsabilities change in this defense compared to what we did with a 4-3? Do our our players overall seem suited to be able to play this type of D? Any and all ?'s that can be answeed will be much appreciated!

We have the following players:

LB's:

Carlos Dansby
Gerald Hayes
Buster Davis
Darryl Blackstock
Monty Beisel
Brandon Johnson

DL:

Alan Branch
Bertrand Berry
Chike Okeafor
Kendrick Clancy
Gabe Watson
Darnell Dockett
Calvin Pace
Johnathan Lewis
Antonio Smith

First, here are a couple of good briefs on the principles of the 3-4 defense:

Football 101: Defensive Line Adjustments
American Football Monthly, Sterling College's Principles of the 3-4 Defense

For what it's worth, here's how I break out the position potentials of our current defensive front-seven players:

ILBs: Gerald Hayes, Karlos Dansby, Monty Beisel, Daryl Blackstock
OLBs: Bertrand Berry, Chike Okeafor, Calvin Pace, Joe Tafoya, Darnell Dockett (?)
NTs: Kendrick Clancy, Gabe Watson, Jonathan Lewis (?)
DEs: Alan Branch, Chris Cooper, Antonio Smith, Ross Kolodziej

Branch can probably move inside or outside, but I'm betting that Clancy and Watson will take the lion's share of NT duties.

The big problem is the one player that didn't make the list and the one that nearly didn't. Brandon Johnson likely doesn't have a position in a 3-4 alignment; if he's going to make the roster next year, he's going to have to do it on special teams and maybe as a backup nickel linebacker. Darnell Dockett is a whole other issue. A much more difficult one.

Dockett is a one-gap penetrator. He has to be given that assignment, or he'll lose interest and effectiveness, as you saw two seasons ago when he wasn't protected by Russell Davis and had to take two-gap assignments. Likely, his best position in a 3-4 may be at strong-side OLB, where he may be able to out-quick right offensive tackles, or try to out-muscle them on the bull rush.

Otherwise, we just gave a big extention to a pass-down player that won't be starting a lot of games or playing in the base defense.

 

[Espo]

Im gonna get a ? jersey..

He has been the most consistent guy to appear on the cardinals depth chart year in and year out since 1988.

 

[Redsz]

. Darnell Dockett is a whole other issue. A much more difficult one.

Dockett is a one-gap penetrator. He has to be given that assignment, or he'll lose interest and effectiveness, as you saw two seasons ago when he wasn't protected by Russell Davis and had to take two-gap assignments.

I disagree. He was asked to contain because we had injuries across the D-Line. Pendergast confirmed this as a guest on the Dennis Green show.

Likely, his best position in a 3-4 may be at strong-side OLB, where he may be able to out-quick right offensive tackles, or try to out-muscle them on the bull rush.

Otherwise, we just gave a big extention to a pass-down player that won't be starting a lot of games or playing in the base defense.

How different is Dockett to Luis Castillo of the Chargers who just racked up 7 sacks as 3-4 DE?

 

[BigWatson]

castillo, overall, is just a better player than dockett. they have the same size but castillo is faster, stronger than dockett, and obviously more talented. i think dockett will be a pretty good DE though. he has all the tools.

re: branch
hes not going to play nose tackle in the 3-4. that would be insane. my guess is they will make him lose about 10 pounds (get him down to ~310ish) and then move him to DE in the 3-4. every 3-4 team plays the 4-3 as well, so the way i see it, we will move him around in the 3-4 (DE) and 4-3 (DT) defense. with watson and him in the middle (4-3), that would be ridiculous. kind of like the two guys in jacksonville (stroud and henderson). plus its another big body to protect our linebackers. two michigan guys anchoring the middle...looking forward to that.

 

[Doc Cardinal]

Buster Davis will do well in the 3-4.

We may need to pick up an NT off the waiver wire.

DE in the 3-4 looks good with one name to add as a possibility....Rodney Bailey played DE in the 3-4 for da Steelers.

 

[vinnymac]

I know what you're saying but we will need to get penetration and if the OLB's aren't fast enough or powerful enough to get there youre screwed. That's the point I was trying to make sorry. Doesn't change the fact that we need to come out of this with a CB. I love the 3-4 it's my fav. defensive scheme but you really need the right personal to run it and I hope we do and we can.

Blitzing is more about timeing. A good blitzing team can predict the snap count and they have good DL to absorb OL for blitzing linebackers and defensive backs. The cardinals outside linebackers are just as fast as any other outside linbacker. They are not as talented as the others. That is just something that has to be addressed next season. The cardinals are just going to have to do the best that they can with what they have at the linebacker position.