35 years and counting? Maybe not...

thegrahamcrackr

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Originally posted by elindholm
BC gets way to much flak. Judging by his drafts, and his personel moves from a long term perspective have ranked him in the top third of GMs easily.

I've always gotten the sense that Bryan is a puppet. Major signings or trades are almost always announced by Jerry. Why? On other teams, it's the GM or coach who makes those announcements, not the owner.

I think Bryan is the "day to day" general manager but that it's still Jerry's team -- for the time being. Yes, I know that there have been statements from both Colangelos to the contrary, suggesting that Bryan really is the one running the show. I don't buy it. I think that, once Jerry walks away, Bryan won't have a clue what he's doing -- which will be irrelevant, because the new owner will axe him anyway.

I think you are right for most of the deals pre JK trade. Jerry obviously has a lot of say, since he is not only the owner, but a former GM himself. However, the Marbury deal was announced by BC. Also, in an interview after the trade, Jerry said something to the effect that it needs to work out for BCs sake.

I do agree he will be axed by a new owner (if they immediately gain control).
 

slinslin

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Colangelo exploring sale of the Phoenix Suns


By Mike Tulumello, Tribune
March 8, 2004

Jerry Colangelo, the major force in building the Valley of the Sun into a big-league sports town, is exploring the sale of the Suns, Colangelo said Monday.

Ideally, Colangelo wants to find a buyer who will agree to be a minority partner for several years, "learn the business" from him and then agree to purchase the club. Under these circumstances, Colangelo, now the club's chairman, would remain in charge for several more years.

Colangelo indicated he thinks the Suns are worth more than the $300 million recently paid to purchase the New Jersey Nets. At the same time, Colangelo said the sale price isn't the only factor, that he wants to find a buyer who shares his "passion" for charity work and community involvement.

Colangelo indicated he owns about 18 percent of the club, while his partnership group owns about 36 percent. Another major partner is El Dorado Investment Co., a subsidiary of Pinnacle West, which he said owns. 21.7 percent of the club.

The team's original owners from the expansion days of 1968 — Richard Bloch, Donald Pitt and Don Diamond — own 13 percent. Other investors own small shares, he said.

As the club's general partner, however, he said, "This is my call all the way," and that the process would involve the purchase of the entire club.

Colangelo, 64, had talked a few years ago about finding an investor who would purchase some of his own share of the club. But he had downplayed this subject in recent years.


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be sure to visit eastvalleytribune.com
When the Suns made a surprising mid-season trade that got rid of Stephon Marbury and Penny Hardaway — who had long-term contractual obligations of about $150 million — one Suns official indicated the deal was made in part so that Colangelo could avoid bringing in a partner.

Colangelo said Monday that the Marbury trade was unrelated to the current events.

The current process, in which the Suns have hired Lehman Brothers Holdings Inc. to search for potential buyers, is intended to lead to a sale, not about finding another minority partner, Colangelo said.

"If somebody is interested in purchasing half of the Suns with an option to buy the other half, that would be something I'd be interested in doing," he said.

"With the right equity partner, I would be interested in doing a deal with the Suns to begin a transition that would be a total sale down the road."

Along the way, Colangelo indicated he'd like to remain the Suns' chairman.

Noting the Suns have been well regarded in the sports world over the years, he said, "It would behoove someone coming in to learn the business for a while, wouldn't it?"

While saying, "I think we're worth more" than the Nets' $300 million purchase price, Colangelo said, "This is not just about money."

It's also about "legacy and putting the right people in place," he said.

In searching for a buyer, Colangelo said he is looking for "people who share the same passion for the community" and who will continue the Suns' tradition of being donors to charitable causes.

The Suns "will be in the black" this season, after a series of moves cut the team's payroll from about $66 million to less than $55 million, Colangelo said. A Suns official indicated a year ago that the club lost about $5 million last season.

Colangelo told Bloomberg News Service that he would like to be involved as long as he can with the Suns. He added, "But I'm realistic. My partner may not want to wait that long."

Colangelo said he hasn't had any discussions with Michael Jordan, the five-time NBA most valuable, who is seeking majority control of an NBA team.

Colangelo, a basketball star in college at Illinois, started out in sports with the Chicago Bulls. He took over as general manager of the expansion Suns in 1968 at age 28. He led the investment group that bought the Suns for $44.5 million in 1987.

Colangelo also was the key figure who put together baseball's Arizona Diamondbacks.

He indicated his son Bryan would remain as the Suns' president. "I'm not worried about Bryan," he said. "Bryan can take care of himself. He's well regarded in the industry."

Colangelo said he hired Lehman Brothers a couple of months ago and is in no hurry to sell the club.

"If nothing happens, that's fine with me, too."

What if Bryan Colangelo and Michael Jordan bought the 18% that Colangelo owns and remain with the investment partners?

Make Bryan the president and MJ the GM.

Wouldn't it be pretty difficult to buy the Suns? There is no single group that owns the majority of the franchise.
 

thegrahamcrackr

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I think as the general partner of the suns he can sell the full thing. If not, he obviously has the consent to sell the entire team.

MJ and BC won't be able to buy the 18%. Michael doens't want to put any of his own money into it (according to the Magic owner), and wants an investment group to actually purchase it. He just wants to be the general partner.

Also, Michael won't have the patience to be groomed by Jerry. That right away makes him a suspect canidate.
 

SunsTzu

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I don't get the fascination with MJ being brought in. What has he done to prove he is a compotent front office man? He was able to clear some cap in Wash but didn't use it wisely. Also his talent evaluation seems below average.
 

slinslin

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1. I don't think MJ ever got to use the capspace he cleared.

2. Kwame Brown will still be a top5 player in that draft if he isn't already. Who is really better? Jefferson? Johnson? Richardson? Gasol? Randolph? Cross Jefferson, Johnson and Richardson off of that list because small guys aren't as valueable.

3. Even the best GM drafts busts, 1 draft is not enough to make an evaluation.
 

BC867

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Looking at all the articles seem to recap Jerry's intentions as follows.

-- He wants to divest himself of his 18% ownership in the Suns, to save his children inheritance taxes when he passes on.

-- He still wants to retain control of the Suns for five to eight years, but realizes that a new owner may want immediate control.

Unless Jerry has some health concerns which are not public, there would be no rush for him to complete a deal. Finding someone to invest, but leave Jerry in control, could drag this on for quite awhile, before he relents.

He was able to work that type of deal with the Diamondbacks. He recently gave up his Managing General Partner title (the ownership side) for that of CEO (still running things).

I think we'll still see Jerry, rather than the Suns or D'backs General Managers, making the major announcements and decisions for some time.
 

Gee!

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Originally posted by slinslin
1. I don't think MJ ever got to use the capspace he cleared.

2. Kwame Brown will still be a top5 player in that draft if he isn't already. Who is really better? Jefferson? Johnson? Richardson? Gasol? Randolph? Cross Jefferson, Johnson and Richardson off of that list because small guys aren't as valueable.

3. Even the best GM drafts busts, 1 draft is not enough to make an evaluation.

:doi:

:D
 

thegrahamcrackr

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MJ as a GM wasn't bad. He had the balls to a big house cleaning (first since the new CBA).

MJ as a player/GM was horrible. However, that was to be expected. Dual roles never work out.


I still don't understand the infatuation with him being an owner here though.
 

Joe Mama

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Originally posted by thegrahamcrackr
MJ as a GM wasn't bad. He had the balls to a big house cleaning (first since the new CBA).

MJ as a player/GM was horrible. However, that was to be expected. Dual roles never work out.


I still don't understand the infatuation with him being an owner here though.

I think when he was still a general manager players probably would have loved to play for him. Now I'm not so sure about that. The rumors were that he was very unpopular with other players, the younger ones especially, in Washington.

Joe Mama
 

sly fly

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So, who are the candidates????

Wonder if Arte Moreno is interested? I want someone who belongs to the Valley.

No former players. No Mark Cuban-types.

Just someone with wads of cash, likes good ball, and stays out of the limelight.
 

SunsTzu

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Originally posted by slinslin
1. I don't think MJ ever got to use the capspace he cleared.

2. Kwame Brown will still be a top5 player in that draft if he isn't already. Who is really better? Jefferson? Johnson? Richardson? Gasol? Randolph? Cross Jefferson, Johnson and Richardson off of that list because small guys aren't as valueable.

3. Even the best GM drafts busts, 1 draft is not enough to make an evaluation.

1. I believe he never really got to use it because of trades that followed the trades that would have created the cap space. The wiz had space this past year, but they would have had it even if they never made the trades a couple years ago.

2. I wasn't even thinking about Kwame when I said he had a poor eye for talent, but since you brought it up when lets compare him to other recent #1 picks: LeBron, Ming, Martin(selected in the weakest draft since '88), Brand. All those guys had an impact their 1st year and were at least in the running for ROY.

Trading Rip Hamilton for Stackhouse is one of the poor decisions I was thinking about. Also his proclaiming that Courtney Alexander was the most talented player in his draft a few years ago also scares me off of him calling the shots.

3. Yes every team makes bad moves and I accept that. I do not want a team that makes more bad moves than good moves which is what we'd get with MJ calling the shots IMO.
 

Joe Mama

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Originally posted by SunsTzu

2. I wasn't even thinking about Kwame when I said he had a poor eye for talent, but since you brought it up when lets compare him to other recent #1 picks: LeBron, Ming, Martin(selected in the weakest draft since '88), Brand. All those guys had an impact their 1st year and were at least in the running for ROY.

You must be joking. It's one thing to compare Brown to the players drafted after him in the same draft. That's fair. It is not fair to compare him to #1 draft picks in other drafts. So far this year's draft looks quite weak. If none of the lottery picks ever play as well as LeBron James, Yao Ming, or Kenyon Martin does that mean that the GM's who drafted in the lottery did a poor job? I think not.

Gasol is the only guy in that draft who really looks like he is better and going to be better than Brown.

Joe Mama
 

slinslin

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Michael Jordan didn't draft Courtney Alexander. He was a throw-in when he dumped Howard on the Mavs.

Jerry West said Rodney White was the most talented player a few seasons ago.

Stackhouse for Hamilton wasn't looked at as a poor decision at first. Most people were wondering why Detroit did that.
Stackhouse is cheap when he is on his game and healthy.

Unfortunately he never really was.
 

George O'Brien

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Originally posted by slinslin

Jerry West said Rodney White was the most talented player a few seasons ago.


I'm not sure I understand how this fit into the conversation.

Actually, I think Rodney White IS a very talented offensive player, although I understand he is not much on defense. He averages 7.5 ppg in only 13.4 minutes and shoots 46.1% with 38.7% for three. (He will be a free agent this summer, but I can't really see him being a particularly good fit for the Suns).
 

slinslin

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Because a lot of people think that Jerry West is the godfather of GMs but blame Jordan for supposedly saying that Courtney Alexander was the best player in that draft.

Courtney Alexander was a great scorer in college and could have been good in the NBA but he was often injured.

In fact Alexander averaged 17ppg for the rest of his rookie season when MJ traded for him. 45%FG 39%3s.
 

thegrahamcrackr

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On that note, Jerry West also proclaimed early last season that Gooden would be ROY. (This is after he saw Amare in summer leagues)
 

George O'Brien

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Originally posted by thegrahamcrackr
On that note, Jerry West also proclaimed early last season that Gooden would be ROY. (This is after he saw Amare in summer leagues)

Gooden was very highly rated coming out of college: great talent, good program, etc. Yet he apparently has worn out his welcome in two cities in two years.

The thing that is impossible to measure is just how much the player wants to be great. Amare has the desire and will do whatever it takes to become an elite player. Gooden has the talent, but not the character.
 

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Originally posted by Joe Mama
You must be joking. It's one thing to compare Brown to the players drafted after him in the same draft. That's fair. It is not fair to compare him to #1 draft picks in other drafts. So far this year's draft looks quite weak. If none of the lottery picks ever play as well as LeBron James, Yao Ming, or Kenyon Martin does that mean that the GM's who drafted in the lottery did a poor job? I think not.

Gasol is the only guy in that draft who really looks like he is better and going to be better than Brown.

Joe Mama

I'm not comparing him to those guys. Like i said I didn't really hold it against him. My only point was that teams with the #1 pick usually get a get one of if not the biggest impact player from that draft.

Michael Jordan didn't draft Courtney Alexander. He was a throw-in when he dumped Howard on the Mavs

MJ wanted him because he thought he was talented and was able to get him. Instead of keeping and trying to develop this great talent what does he do? trades him(i believe for a 2nd rounder).

Trying to compare MJ to west is pretty weak. West built 2 dynasties from the front office MJ didn't do anything.
 

slinslin

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Gooden doesn't even have the talent.

Being a great college player doesn't translate into being a great NBA player.

Gooden even if he took advantage of all his talents would probably only be a Juwan Howard.

He is a black hole. He is a tweener. Too soft and weak to play PF, too slow and inconsistent shooter to be a SF.
Plus he has off-court issues.

Perfect example that there is absolutely no sure thing that college players are more mature than highschool players even if they were highly regarded.
 

slinslin

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Originally posted by SunsTzu
I'm not comparing him to those guys. Like i said I didn't really hold it against him. My only point was that teams with the #1 pick usually get a get one of if not the biggest impact player from that draft.

Not so fast, not so fast.

2003 1. Lebron James - sure pick
2002 1. Yao Ming - sure pick
2001 1. Kwame Brown -no sure picks, weak draft
2000 1. Kenyon Martin, almost sure pick in weak draft
1999 1. Elton Brand, sure pick in one of the strongest drafts ever
1998 1. Michael Olowakandi, bad pick
1997 1. Tim Duncan, sure pick
1996 1. Allen Iverson, wrong pick in hindsight (Kobe, Jermaine etc)
1994 1. Glenn Robinson, wrong pick (Hill, Kidd..)
1993 1. Chris Webber , sure pick
1992 1. Shaq, sure pick
1991 1. Larry Johnson, Mutombo was on the board #4
1990 1. Derrick Coleman, Gary Payton was on the board #2
1989 1. Pervis Ellison, bad pick


When MJ drafted Kwame, not only was it probably one of the 3 weakest drafts since the 2-rounds system. It also had no clear #1 pick and no players that were looked at as impact players.

Gasol was a high risk pick and the only player with real impact in his first year.

The other alternatives to Kwame would have been Zach Randolph who was passed up on by half of the NBA and needed time to devellop even after a year college or Eddy Curry and Tyson Chandler who have done no better than Kwame.

Originally posted by SunsTzu

MJ wanted him because he thought he was talented and was able to get him. Instead of keeping and trying to develop this great talent what does he do? trades him(i believe for a 2nd rounder).

Alexander played well when MJ traded for him. He diminished when MJ returned as a player because of playing less minutes and injuries.

And he didn't trade Alexander for a 2nd rounder. He traded him for a first rounder. Juan Dixon probably not the best pick but except for Flip Murray there weren't better guards picked later in the draft unless you consider Kareem Rush, Casey Jacobsen, Frank Williams better.
And Dixon was a hometown pick.
 
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Joe Mama

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There's no doubt that Yao Ming and Amare Stoudemire are better players and Drew Gooden. However I contend that if Drew Gooden had played for the Phoenix Suns his rookie year or even played with Orlando the entire season he would have been a favorite for ROY. He put up fantastic numbers for a rookie once he moved to Orlando last season. He was sharing time with Gasol, Shane Battier, Stromile Swift, etc. in Memphis.

Joe Mama
 

George O'Brien

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Originally posted by Joe Mama
There's no doubt that Yao Ming and Amare Stoudemire are better players and Drew Gooden. However I contend that if Drew Gooden had played for the Phoenix Suns his rookie year or even played with Orlando the entire season he would have been a favorite for ROY. He put up fantastic numbers for a rookie once he moved to Orlando last season. He was sharing time with Gasol, Shane Battier, Stromile Swift, etc. in Memphis.

Joe Mama

He's been sharing time with Juwan Howard this season. I'm told that Howard did not work out at SF and is mostly playing PF, still Gooden's minutes are about the same as last year.

The hard part about looking at a guy who plays on a team that gets little TV time is that things like defense, hustle (or lack), and doing the little things is not easily evaluated.

A similar issue could be brought up over Rodney White. He puts up great numbers for someone playing only 13 minutes a game - but you have to assume his overall game is not there or he'd play more.
 

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MJ was one of the few GM types to publicly state that he preferred Carmelo over LeBron last summer. That alone should be enough to disqualify him from any future NBA personnel work.
 

thegrahamcrackr

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Originally posted by F-Dog
MJ was one of the few GM types to publicly state that he preferred Carmelo over LeBron last summer. That alone should be enough to disqualify him from any future NBA personnel work.

I dont remember reading that, although I know that MJ likes Carmelo a lot.

However, LBJ has worked out with Michael at the hoops gym in the summer since he was a junior in high school. MJ is the only GM in the league to see Lebron matched up against NBA players before he was drafted.
 

George O'Brien

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Originally posted by thegrahamcrackr
I dont remember reading that, although I know that MJ likes Carmelo a lot.

However, LBJ has worked out with Michael at the hoops gym in the summer since he was a junior in high school. MJ is the only GM in the league to see Lebron matched up against NBA players before he was drafted.

Actually, a lot of people felt Carmelo would have a bigger impact his first few years in the NBA. He has been pretty impressive even though his numbers have dropped off lately. In any case, LeBron's value to Cleveland goes well beyond his statistics in that he is from the area.
 
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