3rd down FG

[TheCardFan]

All of this, imo, MORE THAN COMPLETELY counterbalances any benefit we might get from his playcalling.

Sorry this doesn't cut it. Kliff wants to be the show on offense and refuses to either give up the play calling or bring in anyone to be an OC

My point is Kliff is too stubborn or blind to acknowledge that maybe a bit of help would be useful and productive.

You guys are getting too emotional.
Cardpa - with all due respect, you have no idea what Kliff is really like.

Kliff has taken the worst NFL team in 2018 to a top 10 offense, 10 wins, and the playoffs.

2019 - 5 wins, scoring offense rank 22nd, red zone offense rank 29th.
2020 - 8 wins, scoring offense rank 6th, red zone offense rank 10th.
2021 - 10 wins, scoring offense rank 8th, red zone offense rank 8th.

Guys -that's progress and why I want KK calling the plays. He is the OC - that is why we hired him. We didn't hire him because he is a "leader of men" like Wilkes or McGinnis. He has a different style and he needs a strong supporting cast. You have to take the good with the bad - try and improve on the bad.

Mcvay, Shanahan, Payton, Lafleur, Reich, Stefanski, Zac Taylor, Sirianni, and Nagy all all their own plays. With KK in the mix, that is 10 off the top of my head.
8/10 are going to the playoffs? Coincidence?

Hiring KK and then not allowing him to call the plays is ridiculous. Maybe when he is as old as Reid and Arians but not anytime soon.

 

[gimpy]

I know nothing about football other than I played it in high school some 50-60 years ago.
I thought we brought him here for his offense, not necessarily for his play calling. How did we do the week kk was out with covid? We used his offense, but with a different play caller. Were there fewer questionable (by us) plays called?

I would like to see someone else call the plays, but with occasional input from kk.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

You guys are getting too emotional.
Cardpa - with all due respect, you have no idea what Kliff is really like.

Kliff has taken the worst NFL team in 2018 to a top 10 offense, 10 wins, and the playoffs.

2019 - 5 wins, scoring offense rank 22nd, red zone offense rank 29th.
2020 - 8 wins, scoring offense rank 6th, red zone offense rank 10th.
2021 - 10 wins, scoring offense rank 8th, red zone offense rank 8th.

Guys -that's progress and why I want KK calling the plays. He is the OC - that is why we hired him. We didn't hire him because he is a "leader of men" like Wilkes or McGinnis. He has a different style and he needs a strong supporting cast. You have to take the good with the bad - try and improve on the bad.

Mcvay, Shanahan, Payton, Lafleur, Reich, Stefanski, Zac Taylor, Sirianni, and Nagy all all their own plays. With KK in the mix, that is 10 off the top of my head.
8/10 are going to the playoffs? Coincidence?

Hiring KK and then not allowing him to call the plays is ridiculous. Maybe when he is as old as Reid and Arians but not anytime soon.

You completely misunderstood my post you quoted. I wrote that all his other failings outweigh the good he brings play calling. So if the play calling is his lone positive why in the world would I want to remove the only thing he’s good at from his responsibilities? I just want him gone for all the other reasons.

Also, there’s no emotion there. That perspective is based on facts kliff has proven over the three years here and his time with Texas Tech.

 

[TheCardFan]

That perspective is based on facts kliff has proven over the three years here and his time with Texas Tech

The FACT is he has improved every year, has won 10 games (with two left), got this team into the playoffs, and a chance to win the division title. Top 10 offenses in the NFL the last two years. Those are the facts that matter most.

He is doing with with a 3rd year QB and an All-Pro WR. Outside of that, our talent is weak sauce.

Name a team with at least 10 wins that has less offensive talent than us:

You must be registered for see images attach

 

[cardpa]

You guys are getting too emotional.
Cardpa - with all due respect, you have no idea what Kliff is really like.

Kliff has taken the worst NFL team in 2018 to a top 10 offense, 10 wins, and the playoffs.

2019 - 5 wins, scoring offense rank 22nd, red zone offense rank 29th.
2020 - 8 wins, scoring offense rank 6th, red zone offense rank 10th.
2021 - 10 wins, scoring offense rank 8th, red zone offense rank 8th.

Guys -that's progress and why I want KK calling the plays. He is the OC - that is why we hired him. We didn't hire him because he is a "leader of men" like Wilkes or McGinnis. He has a different style and he needs a strong supporting cast. You have to take the good with the bad - try and improve on the bad.

Mcvay, Shanahan, Payton, Lafleur, Reich, Stefanski, Zac Taylor, Sirianni, and Nagy all all their own plays. With KK in the mix, that is 10 off the top of my head.
8/10 are going to the playoffs? Coincidence?

Hiring KK and then not allowing him to call the plays is ridiculous. Maybe when he is as old as Reid and Arians but not anytime soon.

You are correct, I don't know Kliff personally and neither does anyone else here. I'm simply going by what I have observed and making some assumptions which we all do here to the best of our abilities. It's all we have to go on. Harry might be the only one here that gets some additional insight because of his connections.

Take a look at the 2018 roster and the 2021 roster. Even Wilks could have won more games with the 2021 roster just based on talent alone. The 2018 roster was crappy. This roster is eons better than 2018. I'm not saying WIlks was a good HC by any means but he also didn't have the talent you have on the 2021 roster.

As Ouchie said for all the failings KK has shown, I (meaning me, I don't speak for Ouchie) don't buy into his play calling as enough to justify ignoring the other shortcomings he has exhibited.

If you, as a HC have a history of your teams nosediving in the second half of the season for nine years as a head coach, you should really stop and ask yourself why. Maybe I need to do something different or get some insight from someone else as to why this is happening. IMHO, I don't think KK can acknowledge that maybe its a good idea to do that. That is why I said he is either too stubborn to believe he's has a problem that needs some help or he is simply blind to it.

 

[pemory09]

You are correct, I don't know Kliff personally and neither does anyone else here. I'm simply going by what I have observed and making some assumptions which we all do here to the best of our abilities. It's all we have to go on. Harry might be the only one here that gets some additional insight because of his connections.

Take a look at the 2018 roster and the 2021 roster. Even Wilks could have won more games with the 2021 roster just based on talent alone. The 2018 roster was crappy. This roster is eons better than 2018. I'm not saying WIlks was a good HC by any means but he also didn't have the talent you have on the 2021 roster.

As Ouchie said for all the failings KK has shown, I (meaning me, I don't speak for Ouchie) don't buy into his play calling as enough to justify ignoring the other shortcomings he has exhibited.

If you, as a HC have a history of your teams nosediving in the second half of the season for nine years as a head coach, you should really stop and ask yourself why. Maybe I need to do something different or get some insight from someone else as to why this is happening. IMHO, I don't think KK can acknowledge that maybe its a good idea to do that. That is why I said he is either too stubborn to believe he's has a problem that needs some help or he is simply blind to it.

I like Keim in many ways, but this discussion reminds me that when a manager struggles (in any profession), it’s really the upper administration that needs to intervene and assist that manager and I don’t see any overt maneuvering in this regard by our GM. If you invest in a HC in whom you believe, you need to follow through to ensure that he gets the guidance and support necessary for success. In KK’s case, perhaps hiring a veteran OC as a mandate going forward would stop the historic trend of flaming out each season. The guy (KK) needs some help and guidance.

 

[Hoodhero]

Because Kyler would take a sack or throw it two yards past the LOS.

Yup. That's is exactly what happened in Rams game. Also if kicking team screws up with bad snap etc, got timeout & another down to possibly kick again.

 

[mjb21aztd]

Think kliff been drinkin to much with kiem another head scratchin decision lol

 

[TheCardFan]

Remember when BA was too stubborn to admit any mistakes and kept being loyal to bad players/coaches to the frustration of everyone on this board? Remember the rookie long snapper that cost us games in 2016? Remember how many times we risked it with no biscuit at the end of games instead of running the clock out?

Remember Ken Whisenhunt - trust the process?
Wilks -brick by brick?

Good times.

 

[TheCardFan]

Think kliff been drinkin to much with kiem another head scratchin decision lol

Can we stop with the personal attacks. Keim has done his time on this board.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

I would love if we could go back and actually talk about the 3rd down FG. My complaint? He should have kicked the FG earlier!

The conventional wisdom is that it is harder to get the TD than the FG so you should focus on that. You still need 2 scores no matter what. You still need a successful onside kick anyway. We tried that strategy just a couple weeks earlier and we were only left with what, 25 seconds on the clock and no timeouts?

Which would you prefer? Both assume a successful onside kick completion...

Kick a 45-50 yard FG and leave nearly 2 min left on the clock AND a timeout to go ~55 yards for a TD?
Score a TD and need to go 25 yards to get into FG range with 25 seconds to go and No timeouts?

Give me option A every time. With option A, the team on offense has all of the momentum and nearly your entire playbook is available to you.

Both assume that your kicker can nail a 45-50+ yard field goal, yet an earlier FG takes some of the pressure off of the kicker. Furthermore, most of us can agree that clock management hasn't actually been a strong suit for KM/KK, so go with the option that gives the team the most time to work with...

 

[Russ Smith]

I would love if we could go back and actually talk about the 3rd down FG. My complaint? He should have kicked the FG earlier!

The conventional wisdom is that it is harder to get the TD than the FG so you should focus on that. You still need 2 scores no matter what. You still need a successful onside kick anyway. We tried that strategy just a couple weeks earlier and we were only left with what, 25 seconds on the clock and no timeouts? Most of us can agree that

Which would you prefer? Both assume a successful onside kick completion...

Kick a 45-50 yard FG and leave nearly 2 min left on the clock AND a timeout to go ~55 yards for a TD?
Score a TD and need to go 25 yards to get into FG range with 25 seconds to go and No timeouts?

Give me option A every time. With option A, the team on offense has all of the momentum and nearly your entire playbook is available to you.

Most of us can agree that clock management hasn't actually been a strong suit for KM/KK, so go with the option that gives the team the most time to work with...

yes but we already said that pages ago (-:

You are 100% right if he wasn't locked in on the TD he should have kicked the FG on first down from the 20. The idea is as you said the TD is the harder one to get so kick the FG then if you can pull off the onside kick, you have more time to work your way into hail murray range.

Of course making sure everyone including Kyler is aware you may have to spike the ball at some point which killed us against the Rams

 

[dreamcastrocks]

yes but we already said that pages ago (-:

You are 100% right if he wasn't locked in on the TD he should have kicked the FG on first down from the 20. The idea is as you said the TD is the harder one to get so kick the FG then if you can pull off the onside kick, you have more time to work your way into hail murray range.

Of course making sure everyone including Kyler is aware you may have to spike the ball at some point which killed us against the Rams

It was said, but the overwhelming majority in the thread is saying it was the wrong decision. It wasn't.

 

[cardcrazy]

In this situation there is no legitimate excuse for kicking the FG on 3rd down!
With the ball on the 10 yd line, another shot into the end zone would only burn 5 maybe 6 more seconds. The odds are not good that it will end in a sack, fumble or interception, so you must take the gamble. The possible reward is to great. A touchdown dramatically increases your chances of winning if the onsides kick is successful because you will have the ball near midfield with 35 seconds and a TO left and a kicker with a strong leg (albeit having a bad day).
The excuse of saving as much time as possible doesn’t hold water as we are talking 5 seconds less.
The excuse of “just in case something goes wrong with the hold/snap” also isn’t justified because you can’t worry about that sh*t when you’re trying to win against all odds.
If we had been successful with the onside kick my bet is this decision would have been criticized even more!
Bottom line is KK made a really dumb*SS decision under pressure.

 

[Russ Smith]

It was said, but the overwhelming majority in the thread is saying it was the wrong decision. It wasn't.

Yeah I think the tendency is people think it's hindsight but it really isn't.

In fact even during the game they talked about it on air they were just surprised we did it on 3rd down as if you were going to do that you should have done it on first and saved the time.

I think Kliff panicked after Kyler threw to Ertz in basically triple coveraged thinking if he does that again, or throws underneath we're going to lose too much time so I'm kicking now and then it'll be easier to control if we get the onside kick as you will have to take risky deep shots at that point

 

[Russ Smith]

In this situation there is no legitimate excuse for kicking the FG on 3rd down!
With the ball on the 10 yd line, another shot into the end zone would only burn 5 maybe 6 more seconds. The odds are not good that it will end in a sack, fumble or interception, so you must take the gamble. The possible reward is to great. A touchdown dramatically increases your chances of winning if the onsides kick is successful because you will have the ball near midfield with 35 seconds and a TO left and a kicker with a strong leg (albeit having a bad day).
The excuse of saving as much time as possible doesn’t hold water as we are talking 5 seconds less.
The excuse of “just in case something goes wrong with the hold/snap” also isn’t justified because you can’t worry about that sh*t when you’re trying to win against all odds.
If we had been successful with the onside kick my bet is this decision would have been criticized even more!
Bottom line is KK made a really dumb*SS decision under pressure.

yes but as DCR said the "right" decision is probably kick on first down. I think because we'd missed 3 kicks Kliff felt he had to get closer but the 20 should have been good enough

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Yeah I think the tendency is people think it's hindsight but it really isn't.

In fact even during the game they talked about it on air they were just surprised we did it on 3rd down as if you were going to do that you should have done it on first and saved the time.

I think Kliff panicked after Kyler threw to Ertz in basically triple coveraged thinking if he does that again, or throws underneath we're going to lose too much time so I'm kicking now and then it'll be easier to control if we get the onside kick as you will have to take risky deep shots at that point

Everyone has talked about Kliff not 'taking points' and yet that is exactly what he tried to do this week. It ended up as 2 missed FGs and a missed extra point. If you have a problem with Kliff, you can find it. (you always can during losing streaks with every coach)

 

[TheCardFan]

yes but as DCR said the "right" decision is probably kick on first down. I think because we'd missed 3 kicks Kliff felt he had to get closer but the 20 should have been good enough

How roasted would KK have been if we had kicked it on first down? What is we missed...again?

 

[dreamcastrocks]

yes but as DCR said the "right" decision is probably kick on first down. I think because we'd missed 3 kicks Kliff felt he had to get closer but the 20 should have been good enough

If I were the coach, I would have kicked it from the 35 on 2nd down with 2:22 to go. Here's why.

1. As stated before, to get back into the game, you are likely going to need to kick a 50+ yard FG anyway.
2. You make the FG, you STILL have a chance to get the ball back, even if you don't secure the onside kick. You have 1 timeout and the two minute warning. You can stop them on defense. (who am I kidding)

The scenario I showed above, gives your team the most chances.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

How roasted would KK have been if we had kicked it on first down? What is we missed...again?

He gets roasted every game no matter what he does. So what? Again, my scenario above gives this team the most chances to come back.

 

[TheCardFan]

He gets roasted every game no matter what he does. So what? Again, my scenario above gives this team the most chances to come back.

Agreed. That wasn't a shot at your post - just an observation.

 

[TheCardFan]

Stop hiking the ball past the QB, missing kicks, and making stupid penalties and we wouldn't be having a conversation about a 3rd down FG.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Agreed. That wasn't a shot at your post - just an observation.

I feel like I have become a KK apologist and I don't think he is doing a tremendous job.

It is just the complains he is receiving is just hindsight like Russ stated...

 

[Shane]

I feel like I have become a KK apologist and I don't think he is doing a tremendous job.

It is just the complains he is receiving is just hindsight like Russ stated...

Thats a fact. So much of the “that’s a horrid play call“ when something doesn’t Work. But if an amazing play happens it’s all on the players then. Not the play itself. Or you see open WRs running free and Kyler doesn’t take advantage or throws a bad ball it’s all on the coach he’s a bum. Way too much hindsight involved.

 

[cardcrazy]

I don’t blame KK at all for continuing the drive for the TD. But to commit to the TD and then give up on 3rd down to save 5 seconds?!?
That’s what’s baffling and also the point of this thread.