6/23/04 Insider

sunsfn

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By Chad Ford
ESPN Insider

This is what happens when you let a hockey guy run an NBA team.
We're less than 36 hours away from Thursday's NBA draft and Magic general manager John Weisbrod, who happens to hold both the No. 1 pick and the NBA's hottest trading commodity, can't make up his mind about anything.


Tracy McGrady
Shooting Guard
Orlando Magic

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2003-2004 SEASON STATISTICS
GM
PPG
RPG
APG
FG%
FT%
67
28.0
6.0
5.5
.417
.796

The Tracy McGrady trade talk and the indecision it's creating over what Orlando should in the draft is wreaking total havoc in the league.
"This is nuts," one GM told Insider. "I've never seen such a high volume of trade talks in my life. Everyone's taking their shot at McGrady. Everyone's trying to move up or down. I'm not sure which way is up or down anymore."
As the picture gets fuzzier and fuzzier, we'll endeavor to pull things back into focus. Here's the latest around the league on the top 15 picks and the various scenarios in play:

Orlando Magic: As Insider first reported Tuesday morning, the Magic are indeed seeking other offers for McGrady while simultaneously trying to work out an understanding with Steve Francis, who has said he doesn't want to play in Orlando.
As of this morning, nothing is settled. Orlando's hottest talks Tuesday were with the Phoenix Suns, not the Houston Rockets, according to multiple league sources.
As we have reported throughout the week, the Magic are trying to pry Shawn Marion, Joe Johnson and the No. 7 pick in the draft away from the Suns. According to several sources, the Magic believe the Suns have the most to offer. However, Phoenix wants to keep Johnson and is reluctant to put him in the mix, preferring instead to deal Marion, Casey Jacobsen and the No. 7 for McGrady.
The stumbling block to making that deal happen may not turn on Johnson or Jacobsen, however. McGrady is still insisting he'll only sign a long-term contract extension with the Rockets. The Suns could and probably should call his bluff. Phoenix is a great place to play, and the Suns would be a loaded team next year if they add T-Mac and are able to use the $14.1 million in cap space they'll have this summer to bring in a top free agent.


Al Harrington
Small Forward
Indiana Pacers

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2003-2004 SEASON STATISTICS
GM
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RPG
APG
FG%
FT%
79
13.3
6.4
1.7
.463
.734

The Pacers (with Al Harrington and Ron Artest as the bait) and the Heat (with Eddie Jones, Caron Butler and the No. 19) also have tried to get into the mix. However, it sounds like the Magic aren't as high on either offer.
The Rockets obviously are still in the mix. On Monday, Francis told his agent he did want to play in Orlando. Francis' dig, combined with a flurry of criticism around the league about the lopsided deal, sent the Magic looking for alternative trade partners late Monday night. The Magic spoke with Francis' agent, Jeff Fried, on Tuesday, and feelings seem to be thawing a bit. The base-year compensation concerns about Francis are overblown, according to sources. There are workable combinations of players that would make Francis tradable immediately if the Magic choose to pull the trigger.


Okafor

Howard

All of this trade talk is creating enormous confusion around the league. According to several sources, the Magic were leaning toward taking Dwight Howard with the No. 1 pick if they made the trade with the Rockets. But if they pull the trigger on the Phoenix deal, Emeka Okafor appears to make more sense to them, according to sources.
That's assuming the Magic keep the pick. There's also talk the Hawks, who are desperately trying to get their hands on Howard, still are talking to Orlando about acquiring the No. 1 pick.
The Magic's indecision also is holding up several other deals.
While the Suns are dangling their No. 7 in trade talks with the Magic, sources claim they have several other potential deals in the works for the No. 7, as well.
The Pacers also are in limbo because of the deal. They've been trying to move up into the top 10 picks, using Harrington as trade bait. Obviously their preference would be to get McGrady for Harrington rather than a draft pick, but at some point they'll have to cut their losses and try to get another deal with Harrington.
Chicago Bulls: The Bulls at three also are causing some trouble. It appears they've narrowed their choices to Luol Deng, Ben Gordon or Andre Iguodala. Deng and Gordon are both coveted by teams below them, which could put the Bulls in a good trade situation.

Deng

One rumor that won't go away? The Bulls swapping the No. 3 to Washington for the No. 5 and Jarvis Hayes. The Wizards would then select Luol Deng at No. 3. The Bulls would take Iguodala at No. 5. The Bulls also still are considering a trade of Scottie Pippen and the No. 3 pick to Indiana for Harrington. If the Pacers got the No. 3 pick, they'd likely take Shaun Livingston. The Bulls also might try to move down to get two first-round picks a little later. They, too, are high on Luke Jackson.
Meanwhile, the Arlington Daily Herald reported Wednesday that the Bulls and Celtics were talking about a Paul Pierce for the No. 3 and Tyson Chandler. That deal doesn't even come close working salary-wise, and it seems like an awful deal for the Celtics -- regardless of who they'd pick at No. 3. If the Celtics did this deal, they'd have to take back one more burdensome salary from the Bulls -- likely either Jerome Williams or Eddie Robinson. The deal would be a slam dunk for the Bulls, who have wanted to trade the No. 3 and Chandler all along.

Los Angeles Clippers: There's still a ton of confusion over who the Clippers will draft at No. 4. The growing consensus is they're leaning toward Ben Gordon, who shut down the rest of his workouts after a stellar performance in L.A. on Sunday. However, other sources insist the Clippers haven't made a decision yet and are still considering Devin Harris (of whom coach Mike Dunleavy is very fond) and Shaun Livingston (considered one of the top two or three prospects in the draft). Why do the Clippers matter? Several veteran teams are trying to trade into the top 10 in an effort to land Livingston. If the Clippers take him at four, there's no use. If they take Gordon, there could be a deal made below that.

Washington Wizards: The Wizards aren't going to find anything at No. 5 that makes a lot of sense for them. They too have been active in trade talks, either trying to move up (to Chicago for the No. 3) or to possibly move out of the first round all together. The Pacers, Rockets and Mavericks all have been talking with Washington about a swap of the No. 5 for a veteran.

Atlanta Hawks: The Hawks still are licking their wounds after watching the Bobcats pull off the deal they couldn't to move up to No. 2. Atlanta wanted Howard desperately and still is talking with the Magic in an effort to get the No. 1 pick. It probably isn't going to happen. At No. 6 and No. 17, the returns begin diminishing. Everyone assumes the Hawks will take Livingston if he's still on the board at No. 6, but don't be surprised if they end up moving the pick for a veteran. They have enough cap space to absorb just about any salary a team wants to throw at them. If Josh Smith doesn't go here, he could be in free fall.

Phoenix Suns: If the Suns land McGrady, the No. 7 is going to Orlando. If they don't, there's still a decent chance they'll move their pick. Suns sources told Insider on Tuesday they might end up sending their pick to a team under the cap who's willing to give up a good player and absorb a contract or two (Howard Eisley, anyone?), giving the Suns more cap flexibility down the road.

Toronto Raptors: Portland has targeted the Raptors as a possible trade partner, as have the Jazz and the Pacers. The Raptors are said to be leaning toward taking Luke Jackson at No. 8. For teams like Indiana that are trying to grab Jackson, this may be the place they have to be to land him.

Philadelphia 76ers: They're still trying to move up to No. 3 with the Bulls. However the Bulls are asking for Samuel Dalembert, which is way too high a price. The Sixers aren't trading Dalembert. If they stay at No. 9, the word around the league Tuesday night was that they're leaning toward selecting Latvia's Andris Biedrins.
Biedrins blew off the Sixers for a meeting on Tuesday in an apparent effort to get him to drop to Golden State, but the Sixers are saying they still are considering drafting him. If that happens, Stanford's Josh Childress could be a guy who starts free-falling.

Cleveland Cavaliers: The trade for Aleksandar Pavlovic on Tuesday night addresses Cleveland's need for a swingman. The Cavs have been in heavy trade talks with several teams about moving the No. 10 pick. The Celtics are trying to get up here to make sure they land Robert Swift. The Pacers and Mavericks also have had their eyes on this pick.

Golden State Warriors: The 76ers really could screw things up for the Warriors if they select Biedrins. The Warriors essentially have promised Biedrins they'll take him at No. 11. Biedrins quit working out a few weeks ago with a "foot infection." If he's off the board, there's a lot of talk the Warriors may go ahead and grab Robert Swift here. That's the worst nightmare for the Celtics and Jazz.

Seattle SuperSonics: Again, the team prefers trading the pick, and depending on what happens ahead of them, they may find a willing partner in Utah or Boston. Utah would give the Sonics No. 16 and No. 21 in a heartbeat to get to No. 12. The Sonics probably could get their two targets -- Al Jefferson and Anderson Varejao -- with Utah's picks.

Portland Trail Blazers: The Blazers acquired the No. 22 pick from New Jersey and now own three picks in the first round. They'd like to package two and move up, but so far they've been stymied. Would they select Sebastian Telfair at No. 13? That's the other question that seems to be swirling around the league. The Blazers want him and aren't convinced he'll be there at No. 22.

Utah Jazz: The Jazz appear to be the most set team in the draft. There's roughly six guys they're seriously considering with their three picks. Sergei Monya and Rafael Araujo appear to be locks if they're on the board at Nos. 14 and 16. Robert Swift is also in the mix there. Kris Humphries, Al Jefferson and Anderson Varejao are the three players that will get a look at No. 21. The Jazz still could move up, but as of Tuesday night, that appears unlikely.
Boston Celtics: With three first-round picks and two of them (Nos. 24 and 25) losing value by the day, the Celtics are trying to salvage something out of what they once believed was a deep draft. The Celtics appear convinced Swift, the guy they want, won't be on the board at No. 15. They're trying to move up, but they're not getting a lot of interest in No. 24 and No. 25.
 

Chaplin

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schutd said:
Heh. Im so confused.

Where the heck have you been? You're one of the originals--got to participate here, chief! :) These are HUGE 3 days here! (Yesterday, today, tomorrow)
 

schutd

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Chaplin said:
Where the heck have you been? You're one of the originals--got to participate here, chief! :) These are HUGE 3 days here! (Yesterday, today, tomorrow)

The days of working in front of a computer are LONG GONE for me. Im a kitchen slave now. Dont get NEARLY as much time to read and contribute. But I still try and stay caught up, obviously coming in a few days behind.

Life is a wonderful mess right now. Glad you guys are here to keep me posted.
 

thegrahamcrackr

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sunsfn said:
Phoenix Suns: If the Suns land McGrady, the No. 7 is going to Orlando. If they don't, there's still a decent chance they'll move their pick. Suns sources told Insider on Tuesday they might end up sending their pick to a team under the cap who's willing to give up a good player and absorb a contract or two (Howard Eisley, anyone?), giving the Suns more cap flexibility down the road.


Ok, so how many of us have to eat our words if THIS happens?? I know I sure as hell would.

I mean not just getting out of the contract, but a "good" player too??
 

Chaplin

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thegrahamcrackr said:
Ok, so how many of us have to eat our words if THIS happens?? I know I sure as hell would.

I mean not just getting out of the contract, but a "good" player too??

I'm wondering if we have ever talked to Atlanta, they seem to be a good trading partner with all that space they have. The problem is that nobody wants to go there--we haven't heard ANYTHING about the Hawks except that they are mad that they didn't get the #2 and Dwight Howard.
 
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sunsfn

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Chaplin said:
I'm wondering if we have ever talked to Atlanta, they seem to be a good trading partner with all that space they have. The problem is that nobody wants to go there--we haven't heard ANYTHING about the Hawks except that they are mad that they didn't get the #2 and Dwight Howard.


I think Atlanta might be a good choice.

The suns may draft Josh Smith who is probably Atlantas 2nd choice in the draft, trade him and Eisley to Atlanta for ???
(I think Smith is from Atlanta??)
 

Chaplin

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sunsfn said:
I think Atlanta might be a good choice.

The suns may draft Josh Smith who is probably Atlantas 2nd choice in the draft, trade him and Eisley to Atlanta for ???
(I think Smith is from Atlanta??)

Man, that team has a lot of crap on it. The only good players are probably Boris Diaw and Jason Terry. The other "semi-decent" players on that roster are all free agents.
 

George O'Brien

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Chaplin said:
Man, that team has a lot of crap on it. The only good players are probably Boris Diaw and Jason Terry. The other "semi-decent" players on that roster are all free agents.

It is too bad the second Atlanta pick is so late. If it was in the #10 -#11 range and trade down with Eisley would make sense. But I don't like anyone in the #17 range this year.
 

Biclops

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I love this line...

"Francis' dig, combined with a flurry of criticism around the league about the lopsided deal, sent the Magic looking for alternative trade partners late Monday night."
Hopefully this will make the Magic desperate and take Marion+Casey+7 deal
 

Chaplin

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The question is that while we know for certain that McGrady would go long-term with Houston, how do we know if he'll go long-term with us?
 

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Chap, mah man, nothing in life seems certain. Even if TMac says he likes Houston, things may turn south real fast after he gets there. By the same token, he may be damn pleased once he gets to Phoenix. Nobody really knows for sure. Although you guys had an experience with Dice, don't let it haunt ya forever. I thought you are pithy enough to go for this type of deal despite a minor chunk of uncertainty. :cool: I really think the Suns' front office is dancing. If they stick to their assessment of value regarding this matter, Chap, you are the only one who can plow the opposition to make it happen. Please, not to disappoint me. :self:
 

Dr. Dumas

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It is rare that someone comes out and blasts the Suns organization as not being top notch. If McGrady comes to Phx, I have no doubt that after two years he will feel the same.
 
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sunsfn

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Chaplin said:
The question is that while we know for certain that McGrady would go long-term with Houston, how do we know if he'll go long-term with us?


Good Question!!!

I for one hope the suns do not make this trade without a commitment from McGrady.

Actually, I do not think they will!

:cool:
 

Cog

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I dunno, guys. I think the Suns can put up a pretty competitive team on the floor with TMac, Amare, and the cap room to be used this summer or so. TMac's concern seems to be whether or not he is to be on a good team. So, what do you think? If you do not think adding TMac (sans the players traded out of the Suns) is going to help, then you do not go with TMac at all from the get go. If you think adding TMac is going to upgrade and craft your team into that of championship caliber in two years, you won't have to worry about his commitment from the get go. So, I think the issue will resolve down to whether or not TMac will push your team over the hump as that ultimately is the determining factor in regards to TMac's long term commitment to the Suns. Well, unless you believe that the Suns suck in some way so badly that players are repelled by it -- I doubt it.
 
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Cog

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Chap, you should not subscribe to such a defeatist mentality. :p Just teasing ya. I do understand the concern and think is legit. But, should it be so big a factor? I think not. Some may argue that it is almost moot.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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Cog said:
Chap, you should not subscribe to such a defeatist mentality. :p Just teasing ya. I do understand the concern and think is legit. But, should it be so big a factor? I think not. Some may argue that it is almost moot.


not a single knowledgeable suns fan would consider it moot. we will not trade for mcgrady w/o some waiver of his opt-out next year and promise of an extension. the dice defection took too much outta this franchise to even ponder letting it happen again.
 

Cheesebeef

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JJ, Marion AND the 7th pick is really steep - I mean really steep - we would have to go all out in free agency and make the wisest moves possible signing guys if that happened - JJ and Marion for T-Mac - great - add the pick in there and I think we might be getting hosed - either way - it sure as hell would be exciting and we'd be the talk of basketball - which means attention - which once again makes us a very good looking FA destination. I'm torn because I want T-Mac on this club to team with Amare to dominate for years - but that is an awful lot to give up - and more importantly replace - should be an interesting couple days.
 

Cog

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I understand your sentiment, Ouchie. However, the reason I said that the committment issue was almost moot was that the issue is dependent upon another factor, namely the team's performance with TMac as far as TMac is concerned. So, if you have a rationale for having TMac or not in terms of team's outlook, you really don't have to make the commitment factor bigger than it is. I mean, how do you know if TMac will stick to Houston? Now, he says this and that. But, what if things don't really work out with Ming? Then, he will be no longer committed. Does it really matter what he says now? Again, I do understand your sentiment due to the Dice affair. But you would be better off letting it go once in a while. Well, that is my observation. Obviously, I may be wrong. :)
 

Cog

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I was reading other threads and have found that the prevailing thoughts in regards to value, many of you feel that you may be on the short end of the bargain. Well, I can sure understand it, as well -- assessing players is quite subjective and of context with respect to team make-up, outlook, etc., although I am not you in that regard. So, bear with me and my own thoughts of who is better off. It seems if you are into long term planning, you may take a safer course with Marion, JJ, and #7 and see if anything better comes along. You have a shorter time to make it happen with TMac. I am sure that the Suns will have to show him that they can be quite competitve at least with a first round homecourt advantage in two years. I think there is a good chance that happening with a solid use of the monies available. I guess it will come down to risk-averse vs. risk-taking and the chance of draino vs. payoff. I have seen many arguing on risk factors, explicitly or otherwise. However, I have not seen a good debate on draino vs. payoff -- maybe, I missed them. You can be risk averse or risk taking. Each strategy seems to have its own advantages. Yet, the more dicisive factor should be the chance of draino vs. payoff. I just want to see more debates on the issue. Not being sarcastic. I really wanna see enlightening expositions in this regard and learn as I am quite mesmerized into this TMac, Shaq, etc. stuffs.
 

elindholm

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Each strategy seems to have its own advantages. Yet, the more dicisive factor should be the chance of draino vs. payoff. I just want to see more debates on the issue.

It might help if you explain what you mean by "draino" if you'd like us to discuss it. I personally would like to see more discussion of farglebinkup, but the board won't respond to my request.
 
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sunsfn

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Oh no!!!

This thread has turned into a

TRAVSHAMMOCKERY..........BERGELFICKEL!!

:D
 

Cog

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Until I gather clouds and rain the scorched Earth to feed the hungry.. Until I demolish all the mountains to pave a way to the greater enlightenment, I have little time for travashamockery.
 

Cog

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Very nice, elindholm. :) I am not talking about anything fancy like yours. Simply put..... The chance of getting TMac and things not working out (hence, no payoff whatsoever or a mish mesh result) vs. payoff if things work out. This again is very subjective, I presume. For instance, one may argue that there is a reasonable chance of things working out. Amare and TMac are quite complementary in style. Both are young and grow together. Etc. Adding one more star caliber player, though a lesser one, with a couple of solid changes will put the Suns in the position to contend for the title in 3 to 4 years. A huge payoff with a reasonably good chance of things working out. TMac and Amare can easily be the foundation for it. Of course, the collaboration of Amare and TMac can break down. A more informed contributor such as you can present more incisive and objective explanations as to what to be done, weighing pro's and con's rationally. I wish I could. But, I am not as familiar with the Suns as you guys are. I am sure that is the reason that I do not see that many negatives potentially holdin down the TMac and Amare connection -- not being sarcastic. How about it, elindholm?
 
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