7/10/04 Lakers/Miami deal for Shaq

[sunsfn]

Saturday, July 10, 2004

ESPN.com news services

Warm weather. Smaller centers. A star guard. Pat Riley. Life in South Florida sounds mighty nice to Shaq.

A source told ESPN's David Aldridge Saturday that the Lakers center has agreed to accept a proposed trade that would send him to the Miami Heat in exchange for guard Caron Butler and forwards Lamar Odom and Brian Grant.

The trade has not been finalized, but O'Neal has informed both the Lakers and Heat that he will not do anything to hinder the swap and would not opt out of his contract after next season.

Insider's Chad Ford wonders why the Heat would be willing to short-circuit a solid rebuilding project for a short-term run with Shaq. He also wonders why the Lakers would be willing to become the West coast version of the Heat.

Ford: Is Shaq worth it?

The Lakers may be forced to take this proposal, as there are no other prospective deals on which O'Neal has signed off.

Dallas was the early front-runner to acquire O'Neal, but a Mavericks source seemed resigned Saturday to O'Neal's going to Miami. The source said that if the Heat can work out a contract extension for O'Neal when his current deal expires in two years, there is nothing the Mavs can do to thwart the trade.

Miami is one of five cities that O'Neal has told the Lakers would be acceptable to him.

Despite O'Neal's smiling denial to The Associated Press on Saturday afternoon that he had met with Heat president Pat Riley, sources told Aldridge that O'Neal apparently agreed to accept the trade after spending part of Saturday morning in Orlando meeting with Riley and Miami general manager Randy Pfund.

Apparently, Riley, Pfund and O'Neal's representatives met for three hours. O'Neal was not present for the entire meeting, but hit it off immediately with Riley.

"He feels this is the environment he wants," a source who was at the meeting said of O'Neal. Riley "was really good about understanding what Shaquille wanted to accomplish," the source said. "He was a great listener."

According to the source, O'Neal likes how Riley used Kareem Abdul-Jabbar later in Abdul-Jabbar's career and believes a return to the Eastern Conference, with its relative lack of big men, will help extend his career. O'Neal also was excited about the prospect of playing with second-year guard Dwyane Wade, who he feels is a special player.

"You don't have to go back too far to see a guard and Shaquille being able to do some damage, even with role players surrounding them," the source said, referring to O'Neal's early years in the league with Orlando, when he and Penny Hardaway helped lead the Magic to the Finals in 1995.

O'Neal will remain in Orlando until the deal is finalized.

On Friday night, ESPN's Jim Gray reported that the Lakers had OK'd their end of the deal and the decision to make the trade, including either Butler or a first-round pick, was now in the Heat's hands. The Riverside (Calif.) Press-Enterprise had reported Thursday on the initial talks between the teams.

 

[F-Dog]

"You don't have to go back too far to see a guard and Shaquille being able to do some damage, even with role players surrounding them," the source said, referring to O'Neal's early years in the league with Orlando, when he and Penny Hardaway helped lead the Magic to the Finals in 1995.

See, this is the problem with reports that don't have anybody's name on them.

50/50 whether the writer is dumb as a rock, or just having his little joke at ESPN's expense...

 

[devilalum]

Miami's giving up a lot. It's hard to see how they're gonna be all that competitve with Shaq, Wade, E Jones and role players unless Wade really steps up.

 

[Dave64]

This trade is a small steal for the Heat!

 

[Dr. Dumas]

This trade is a small steal for the Heat!

Care to explain?

I think the heat are making a big mistake. Giving up Butler & Odom will take out some of this teams youth, not to mention that they will have a very small window with Shaq to win a championship.

 

[carey]

They'll be vastly competitive if (and this is a big if) Shaq comes in motivated. I have a feeling that he will have a huge chip on his shoulder and will report to Miami in the best shape he has been in for the past few seasons. If that's the case he will destroy everyone in his path.

Of course this is just my opinion. I could be wrong.

 

[Dave64]

I will take a pissed off Shaq with something to prove over a short old center with bad knees, and a pot smoking Odom who is one striike away from being banned. Butler is the best part of the deal for the Lakers.

 

[devilalum]

This trade is a small steal for the Heat!

IMO the most important aspect of this trade is Shaq going east.

I hope the Heat keeps Butler. If so a Laker team headlined by, Odom, Grant, Payton and Kobe is not nearly as good as the Suns.

Even better, if the Lakers really struggle the LA faithful will turn on Kobe big time. He thinks he's the next Jordan but I haven't seen the ability to lead that Mike showed during the 6peat and Rudy T isn't going to squeeze blood out those turnips either.

Of course this all gets that much better if Bryant jumps ship or goes to jail!

 

[Billythekid]

Massive key to this is Butler, I'd love this trade for the heat if say they'd give Odom, Grant and a 1st rounder. Adding Butler just seems like it's too much. Then again without him it seems like too less for the Lakers to accept.

 

[Cheesebeef]

IMO the most important aspect of this trade is Shaq going east.

I hope the Heat keeps Butler. If so a Laker team headlined by, Odom, Grant, Payton and Kobe is not nearly as good as the Suns.

Even better, if the Lakers really struggle the LA faithful will turn on Kobe big time. He thinks he's the next Jordan but I haven't seen the ability to lead that Mike showed during the 6peat and Rudy T isn't going to squeeze blood out those turnips either.

Of course this all gets that much better if Bryant jumps ship or goes to jail!

if that team gets Butler - I think it's a decent enough deal for the Lakes considering Shaq is so difficult to trade for - a lot of people forget that Butler was an absolute Stud his first year in the league - I'd see us and the Lakers being competitive if that trade went down as far as this year goes - GP isn't as bad as he showed last year in the trinagle and Rudy is a very good coach - With Kobe, Butler and Odom as their main three - it's a pretty solid team 1-3 - however - they are hurting big up front - unless they Malone to come back healthy and Brian Grant can stay healthy - if that happens - don't be surprised to see that team in the second round of the playoffs next year.

 

[elindholm]

I think it's a good trade for Miami. Odom had a breakout year, and it's difficult to trade players when their stock is high, but he is a risk to regress and everyone knows it. Grant has worn out his effectiveness. O'Neal could easily play four more dominant years in the East, and the Heat will certainly be a top-four seed as long as he has a pulse.

So the only real risk for the Heat is that either Odom or Butler becomes a long-term stud. That may happen, but it's more likely that it won't.

 

[Dave64]

I think there has been some talk about replacing Butler with 18 year phenom Dorrell Wright, who is from LA.

 

[F-Dog]

Sorry, but I don't think Caron Butler is a big loss for the Heat.


Butler was supposed to be another PP coming out of college, but his rookie year was a major disappointment. (He was one of the three least-efficient scorers in the league IIRC.) This year Butler didn't show nearly the improvement you'd expect, although his injury may have been part of the reason.

When you consider that Butler's barely 6'6" and not athletic enough to play SG, I can't see how you'd see much upside in him. He'll probably always be pretty much what he is now: a decent rotation player, but just another guy in the grand scheme of things.


The main reason Caron Butler is even worth mentioning is because Miami is so thin already. Still, the Heat have the MLE--Trenton Hassell is still available, and he's probably better than Butler--and they should be able to fill out with veteran minimum players, the way the T-Wolves did this year.



The Heat make a killing in this deal--it really shows how desperate the Lakers were to get rid of Shaq before the beginning of FA. The Heat would probably have given up Butler just to move Grant's contract, so the main piece was Odom, whom the Heat picked up in free agency just last year.

I guess Shaq should give a shout-out to Anthony Carter if this goes through.

 

[Evil Ash]

I think there has been some talk about replacing Butler with 18 year phenom Dorrell Wright, who is from LA.

Thats what the Heat are hoping for, and if they do that deal it is a flat out steal for Miami (IMO even with the trade including Butler its still a steal for Miami)

 

[Cheesebeef]

Sorry, but I don't think Caron Butler is a big loss for the Heat.


Butler was supposed to be another PP coming out of college, but his rookie year was a major disappointment. (He was one of the three least-efficient scorers in the league IIRC.) This year Butler didn't show nearly the improvement you'd expect, although his injury may have been part of the reason.

When you consider that Butler's barely 6'6" and not athletic enough to play SG, I can't see how you'd see much upside in him. He'll probably always be pretty much what he is now: a decent rotation player, but just another guy in the grand scheme of things.

If Butler was supposed to be another PP coming out of college do you really think he would have lasted till the 10th pick in the draft. Give me a break man - people were talking about Butler being the real Rookie of the Year in some circles last year and a guy who can come in immediately and average 15 .7 points per game on 42 percent shooting while being measured at 6'7 - kinda like another small forward who everyone here gushes over - is pretty impressive - he was injured on and off this season limiting his effectiveness but you're analysis of him is just way off base IMO.

 

[Dave64]

A newsapaper in Florida is no reporting that the deal is for Odom, Grant, Butler, and a 1st rounder in 2006 or later.

 

[F-Dog]

If Butler was supposed to be another PP coming out of college do you really think he would have lasted till the 10th pick in the draft. Give me a break man - people were talking about Butler being the real Rookie of the Year in some circles last year and a guy who can come in immediately and average 15 .7 points per game on 42 percent shooting while being measured at 6'7 - kinda like another small forward who everyone here gushes over - is pretty impressive - he was injured on and off this season limiting his effectiveness but you're analysis of him is just way off base IMO.

Draft measurements--2002

Caron Butler is 6'5 1/4" in socks.

Butler was projected to go in the top 5, but he dropped like a rock on draft day--just like Paul Pierce. From there the hype spun out of control.

He was a ROY candidate because he was from the East and led rookies in points scored. The fact is that he put up 14 shots per game and his assist/turnover ratio was 1, but raw numbers are what's important to a lot of NBA 'analysts'.

Butler's ineffectiveness as a rookie was also glossed over because it was supposed to be so difficult to be a difference-maker for the Heat, but Dwyane Wade gave the lie to that last year, didn't he?

 

[Cheesebeef]

Draft measurements--2002

Caron Butler is 6'5 1/4" in socks.

Butler was projected to go in the top 5, but he dropped like a rock on draft day--just like Paul Pierce. From there the hype spun out of control.

He was a ROY candidate because he was from the East and led rookies in points scored. The fact is that he put up 14 shots per game and his assist/turnover ratio was 1, but raw numbers are what's important to a lot of NBA 'analysts'.

Butler's ineffectiveness as a rookie was also glossed over because it was supposed to be so difficult to be a difference-maker for the Heat, but Dwyane Wade gave the lie to that last year, didn't he?

right because Lamar Odom had nothing to do with the Heat's rise either? Butler's ineffectiveness - that's a freaking joke - but then again you are the guy who wanted Okur so I guess I have to take everything you say with a grain of salt.

 

[JCSunsfan]

right because Lamar Odom had nothing to do with the Heat's rise either? Butler's ineffectiveness - that's a freaking joke - but then again you are the guy who wanted Okur so I guess I have to take everything you say with a grain of salt.

Your posts are getting quite troll-like. Is it really necessary to argue with everyone about everything, and top it off with personal attacks?

 

[Cheesebeef]

yeah - the Okur thing was out of line - but I'm sorry JC - I just see a hell of a lot of myopia on these baords in the last couple weeks and I do believe I am entitled to my opinion as everyone else.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Your posts are getting quite troll-like. Is it really necessary to argue with everyone about everything, and top it off with personal attacks?

besides - if someone rebuts my idea of Butler with information that I believe to be contrary and there is more discussion to be had about the subject should I just shut my mouth and tuck my tail between my legs - I thought this was a place to discuss things - apparently only good things or things I can agree on with people - give me a break.

 

[JCSunsfan]

yeah - the Okur thing was out of line - but I'm sorry JC - I just see a hell of a lot of myopia on these baords in the last couple weeks and I do believe I am entitled to my opinion as everyone else.

Sure, you're entitled to your opinion, but finding a silver lining, and a little optimism somewhere would be nice every once-in-a-while. Maybe it would even rub off a little on elindhom.

We are fans after all.

Sure we'll disagree with one another, but overstating a position in order to "balance things out" generally leads to fruitless arguments where everyone ends up overstating their own position.

 

[Bada0Bing]

I can't wait to see a pissed off shaq in the east. I can see 32 and 15 no problem. Wade will have a huge year. Jones was great playing off shaq in LA. With some decent role players this team can contend in the east.

 

[George O'Brien]

Calm down.

Supposedly Butler played pretty well late in the season. None the less, the Heat were trying to move him so I would guess they aren't that excited about his potential.

My guess is that the Lakers will do better with this deal than with the other actual proposed deals they were being offered. I'm not sure it works for either team, but it is not horribly one sided either.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Sure, you're entitled to your opinion, but finding a silver lining, and a little optimism somewhere would be nice every once-in-a-while. Maybe it would even rub off a little on elindhom.

We are fans after all.

Sure we'll disagree with one another, but overstating a position in order to "balance things out" generally leads to fruitless arguments where everyone ends up overstating their own position.

obviously the above is the case - but I'm not doing anything to balance things out - I can assure you that - there really isn't that much for-though that goes into these posts - they're responses - nothing more, nothing less and my response to what I believe to be a lot of opinions that just don't jive with what I've seen in the NBA over the course of the last couple years comes out as such - and as far as optimism - people read what they want to read - I'm hping like hell Q signs that offer sheet because it will give us a very dangerous back-court and have said so many times - but when I see someone coming off with statements that we'd be better than the Kings backcourt which singlehandedly drove them to the best record in the NBA until Webber got back - I'm going to comment on that - but that doesn't mean I wouldn't love our possible backcourt - but if people can't see that there are usually two sides to my arguments - such as acknowledging that we will likely be back in the playoffs - yet at the same time being deathly afraid that we just - ah forget it - I guess I should just say at least we should be fun to watch this year (I was just hoping for more).