A Chilling Vision of Things to Come

[kerouac9]

I was thinking about these Kevin Kolb debates and they seem to come down to the question of whether the value is high enough to justify the cost. The main factor for those advocating for Kolb is that he answers the medium-term question of who is the starting quarterback for the Arizona Cardinals. That answer is enough for some to justify the difference between two second-round picks and one first-round pick.

If Kolb is a disaster, then the choice is wrong. If Kolb is a Top 5 quarterback, then the choice is a good one. But what if Kolb just ends up okay? What if he ends up being a Matt Hasselback/Jeff Garcia-type?

You get the Arizona Cardinals from 1999-2002.

If and when the Cards trade for Kolb, they'll have to make a commitment to him on the order of 6 years, $63 million with more than $40 million coming in the first three years. There is no drafting a quarterback in that scenario.

When Jake Plummer beat the New Orleans Saints 19-17 to give us the 2nd overall pick in the 1999 NFL draft, the Cards gave him a three-year contract extension worth $29.7 million. That was on par with the best quarterbacks in the NFL--on par with what Drew Bledsoe received earlier that season from the New England Patriots. Arizona was committed to Jake Plummer as their quarterback of the present and future.

Plummer was a leader, could make all the throws, and was a gunslinger.

The rest of his time in Arizona Plummer's QB rating never topped 79.6, but the Cards went through a series of hot shot offensive coordinators trying to find someone who could realize Plummer's great potential. At the same time, Plummer's contract hamstrung the Cardinals against the salary cap and they had a hard time keeping their young players on the roster. Plummer went to the press nearly every offseason and offered to reduce his salary cap number for the sake of the team.

If Kolb is mediocre, than there is no taking a shot at Luck in the 2012 draft, or whomever comes next. If Kolb is mediocre, then Ken Whisenhunt and his staff take the fall after the 2012 season, because we can't swallow the Kolb contract extension. Whisenhunt is an offensive-minded head coach who has failed to replace the experienced personnel on his staff, or to locate consistent talent on the defensive coaching staff.

Trading for Kolb might not mean another 5-11 season, but it would likely mean a half-decade of 7-9 and 8-8 results and another coaching staff or two.

 

[MadCardDisease]

If Kolb is a disaster, then the choice is wrong. If Kolb is a Top 5 quarterback, then the choice is a good one. But what if Kolb just ends up okay? What if he ends up being a Matt Hasselback/Jeff Garcia-type?

Hasselbeck did lead his team to the superbowl. I'd be happy with that.

 

[Buckybird]

Hasselbeck did lead his team to the superbowl. I'd be happy with that.

Until there's a Lombardi throphy hoisted by our Redbirds, I won't be happy!!! We can settle or be great...

 

[moklerman]

Hasselbeck did lead his team to the superbowl. I'd be happy with that.

You'd also have to be happy with the RB who rushed for 1,880 yards and 27 TD's. I'd say the guy who won the MVP was who actually "led" that Seahawks team to the SB.

 

[Cheesebeef]

dude, if Kolb is a Hasselback/Garcia we should be jumping for joy... one of them is a 3 time Pro-Bowler who took a team to the playoffs for 5 straight years and a Super Bowl and the other is 4 Time Pro-Bowler who took his fair share of QBs to the playoffs.

that would instantly be the second best QB this team has ever had (in AZ) by a MILE.

 

[MadCardDisease]

Until there's a Lombardi throphy hoisted by our Redbirds, I won't be happy!!! We can settle or be great...

I'd rather just settle. Hope for the occasional chance at making the playoffs if our division happens to be really crappy that year.

 

[Buckybird]

K9, great post.

It's a dicey predicament the Cards have put themselves in, but at some point you have to roll the dice & hope the staff has done it's homework to know if Kolb/Palmer or Orton can win this team a title. Have we ever been aggressive enough in the draft to acquire such a QB? Not to my knowledge. I hate the thought of Bulger being our QB & would rather see Skelton.

IMO if this staff thinks Kolb/Palmer or Orton has the ability to win a Super Bowl...pull the trigger or stay away.

 

[MadCardDisease]

that would instantly be the second best QB this team has ever had (in AZ) by a MILE.

How can you say that with a straight face. Dave Brown. Kent Graham. Jeff Blake. Those guys were superstars in Arizona.

 

[English on tour]

dude, if Kolb is a Hasselback/Garcia we should be jumping for joy... one of them is a 3 time Pro-Bowler who took a team to the playoffs for 5 straight years and a Super Bowl and the other is 4 Time Pro-Bowler who took his fair share of QBs to the playoffs.

that would instantly be the second best QB this team has ever had (in AZ) by a MILE.

Nail on the head there mate.

 

[MadCardDisease]

You'd also have to be happy with the RB who rushed for 1,880 yards and 27 TD's. I'd say the guy who won the MVP was who actually "led" that Seahawks team to the SB.

I'd say it was more Walter Jones and Steve Hutchinson.

 

[football karma]

regardless of what the proper player comparison is --make it David Garrard --- I think the point holds.

What k9 really is commenting on is opportunity cost. Trade for Kolb: the combo of picks given up with new contract means no rookie QB next year, no matter where we are or who is on the board.

 

[football karma]

regardless of what the proper player comparison is --make it David Garrard --- I think the point holds.

What k9 really is commenting on is opportunity cost. Trade for Kolb: the combo of picks given up with new contract means no rookie QB next year, no matter where we are or who is on the board.

 

[Buckybird]

I'd say it was more Walter Jones and Steve Hutchinson.

You mean those guys are better than Levi & Deuce?
Ignoring our difficiencies in our Oline IMO is our problem not our RB's.

 

[MadCardDisease]

You mean those guys are better than Levi & Deuce?
Ignoring our difficiencies in our Oline IMO is our problem not our RB's.

Hey I've been saying that from day one. It won't matter how good our QB is if we don't do something to fix our OL.

 

[kerouac9]

dude, if Kolb is a Hasselback/Garcia we should be jumping for joy... one of them is a 3 time Pro-Bowler who took a team to the playoffs for 5 straight years and a Super Bowl and the other is 4 Time Pro-Bowler who took his fair share of QBs to the playoffs.

that would instantly be the second best QB this team has ever had (in AZ) by a MILE.

But both of those guys are system quarterbacks--that's one reason why Matt Hasselback is more valuable to Seattle than he is anywhere else. Take Jeff Garcia out of the West Coast offense and he looks like the guy in Cleveland.

Both are moderately talented who look really good when you surround them with talented players. The issue that I have with Kolb is that he hasn't looked good when surrounded by talented players in Philly (at least not consistently against average competition).

As far as I can tell, Jeff Garcia took two San Fran teams to the playoffs--when they had Garrison Hearst and Terrell Owens and a Tampa Bay team where the stars aligned to win the NFC South at 9-7.

David Garrard is an excellent comparison, as well. I don't trust this coaching staff to develop a QB, and Kolb remains a prospect who needs more than a little development.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

You'd also have to be happy with the RB who rushed for 1,880 yards and 27 TD's. I'd say the guy who won the MVP was who actually "led" that Seahawks team to the SB.

Steve Hutchinson, and Walter Jones ?

 

[RugbyMuffin]

I'd say it was more Walter Jones and Steve Hutchinson.

Obviously I agree.

 

[Cheesebeef]

But both of those guys are system quarterbacks--that's one reason why Matt Hasselback is more valuable to Seattle than he is anywhere else. Take Jeff Garcia out of the West Coast offense and he looks like the guy in Cleveland.

Both are moderately talented who look really good when you surround them with talented players.

aren't you the one who said this team is locked with skill position players for the short term and long term in another thread? You asked the question, what if he ends up like a Hasselbeck/Graciatype? Well, if we have skill position players like you asserted in another thread we do, then a Hasselbeck/Garcia "type" would be successful here.

now you want to go in to why those guys are successful where they were, because they were system quarterbacks... well, that doesn't really go to the point of the matter, unless i completely missed what point you were trying to make. To me, when I read "Hasselbeck/Garcia" type, I think what kind of qbs those guys were and what kind of success they had. I mean, why even bring those guys up as part of a question if you think he's got no ability to be those guys?

I mean, you asked a question: What if he ends up being like Hasselbeck/Garcia. To which I reply "That would be great!" And then you basically reply: "He can't end up like Hasselbeck/Garcia!" So what's the point of me responding here? Or asking the question for that matter?

You framed the question by first asking what if he's top five? then ask what if he's just okay, like Hasselbeck/Garcia... I guess I just disagree that those guys are "okay" QBs. Hasselbeck's been a good QB to very good QB throughout his career and Garcia has been a pretty good QB everywhere he's gone, save Cleveland, where no one's been good forever (not to mention he was what? 35 or 36 by that point?).

 

[Dayman]

David Garrard is an excellent comparison, as well. I don't trust this coaching staff to develop a QB, and Kolb remains a prospect who needs more than a little development.

If you don't think this staff can develop a QB, why are you so set on the Cards keeping their first round pick and drafting one next year? Not only a first round pick, but a low first round pick, considering you believe Orton or Bulger (who has one 16 game season on his nine year resume) will lead us to the playoffs. I don't understand your logic.

 

[Shane]

dude, if Kolb is a Hasselback/Garcia we should be jumping for joy... one of them is a 3 time Pro-Bowler who took a team to the playoffs for 5 straight years and a Super Bowl and the other is 4 Time Pro-Bowler who took his fair share of QBs to the playoffs.

that would instantly be the second best QB this team has ever had (in AZ) by a MILE.

100% dead on!

 

[Shane]

But both of those guys are system quarterbacks--that's one reason why Matt Hasselback is more valuable to Seattle than he is anywhere else. Take Jeff Garcia out of the West Coast offense and he looks like the guy in Cleveland.

Both are moderately talented who look really good when you surround them with talented players. The issue that I have with Kolb is that he hasn't looked good when surrounded by talented players in Philly (at least not consistently against average competition).

As far as I can tell, Jeff Garcia took two San Fran teams to the playoffs--when they had Garrison Hearst and Terrell Owens and a Tampa Bay team where the stars aligned to win the NFC South at 9-7.
David Garrard is an excellent comparison, as well. I don't trust this coaching
staff to develop a QB, and Kolb remains a prospect who needs more than a little development.

What do you mean by Kolb hasn't looked good? What are you basing good off? The guy has had very good games and some bad ones. He is the of a rookie in # of starts. what exactly are you expecting from him?

 

[desertdawg]

 

[kerouac9]

aren't you the one who said this team is locked with skill position players for the short term and long term in another thread? You asked the question, what if he ends up like a Hasselbeck/Graciatype? Well, if we have skill position players like you asserted in another thread we do, then a Hasselbeck/Garcia "type" would be successful here.

now you want to go in to why those guys are successful where they were, because they were system quarterbacks... well, that doesn't really go to the point of the matter, unless i completely missed what point you were trying to make. To me, when I read "Hasselbeck/Garcia" type, I think what kind of qbs those guys were and what kind of success they had. I mean, why even bring those guys up as part of a question if you think he's got no ability to be those guys?

I mean, you asked a question: What if he ends up being like Hasselbeck/Garcia. To which I reply "That would be great!" And then you basically reply: "He can't end up like Hasselbeck/Garcia!" So what's the point of me responding here? Or asking the question for that matter?

You framed the question by first asking what if he's top five? then ask what if he's just okay, like Hasselbeck/Garcia... I guess I just disagree that those guys are "okay" QBs. Hasselbeck's been a good QB to very good QB throughout his career and Garcia has been a pretty good QB everywhere he's gone, save Cleveland, where no one's been good forever (not to mention he was what? 35 or 36 by that point?).

No... you're right. It wasn't exactly an apt comparison. I think that Jake Plummer would've been as good or better than Hasselback or Garcia had he been in that kind of offense with those people around him--Plummer was the primary comparison I was making. Plummer was good in Denver--as good as Hasselback or Garcia ever were, really.

I think that Kolb could end up as a second-tier QB in Cleveland or where they run a West Coast offense. Which is what Hasselback was in Seattle and Garcia was at his best.

If you don't think this staff can develop a QB, why are you so set on the Cards keeping their first round pick and drafting one next year? Not only a first round pick, but a low first round pick, considering you believe Orton or Bulger (who has one 16 game season on his nine year resume) will lead us to the playoffs. I don't understand your logic.

Because I think that Whis could be fired after another 5-11 season. If we have a winning season, then we draft a QB in the first who Whis loves, and are either successful with him or go back to the #7 experience with a new head coach inheriting a QB that he didn't draft.

What do you mean by Kb hasn't looked good? What are you basing good off? The guy has had very good games and some bad ones. He is the of a rookie in # of starts. what exactly are you expecting from him?

Kolb's mid-70s career QB rating? The fact that he's far worse in his first seven career starts than 7th round pick Matt Cassel or 3rd round pick Matt Schaub (who actually did start as a rookie)? Perhaps we should still consider Josh McCown a rookie because that's the number of starts he's had.

Kolb is a sixth year player. If he can't come in and complete 63% of his passes and put up a 3-2 TD/INT ration from jump street, he's going to severely underperform.

How did Aaron Rodgers do when he was "the of a rookie in # of starts"?

 

[Russ Smith]

We need a no Jake Plummer nightmare rule on this board.

 

[Russ Smith]

No... you're right. It wasn't exactly an apt comparison. I think that Jake Plummer would've been as good or better than Hasselback or Garcia had he been in that kind of offense with those people around him--Plummer was the primary comparison I was making. Plummer was good in Denver--as good as Hasselback or Garcia ever were, really.

"?

Yeah but Plummer was good in Denver because Shanahan had 6 years of starts to look at on film and figure out what Jake could NOT do so he could design an offense for him.

Jake would have been on the bench behind McNabb and later Vick in Philly too if he were in Kolb's place.

I have no idea how good he'll be, but he doesn't remind me of Jake at all.