A goodbye from Nash to Suns fans

[SirStefan32]

The reason it is a big deal for me, is because it involves the credibility of the Sun FO, in particular Lon Babby. It's not like Babby said he wanted Steve Nash back... he preached it... no if, and or but. He said he wanted Nash to retire a Sun over and over again. And then Babby lets Nash walk away without nary an offer. This is why it is important. What gives? There has to be more.

That's called PR. Anyone who has ever had ANY kind of a leadership position understands what Babby was doing. Everyone involved knows it's crap, but that it has to be done. What Babby was doing is a standard operating procedure.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

That's called PR. Anyone who has ever had ANY kind of a leadership position understands what Babby was doing. Everyone involved knows it's crap, but that it has to be done. What Babby was doing is a standard operating procedure.

Complete BS. The standard line from the beginning of the year last year to the end was that they planned on reloading around Nash. Period. I can find you 500 quotes to back that up. From Sarver, to Babby to Blanks, the party line was Nash is the franchise, and they were going to build around him.

If not, why not trade him prior to last year or before the trade deadline, when they could have gotten better value? Why not trade Grant Hill at that point as well?

At some point, between the trade deadline and now, the plan completely changed. That's troublesome and points to a lack of leadership and a plan.

 

[Cheesebeef]

That's called PR. Anyone who has ever had ANY kind of a leadership position understands what Babby was doing. Everyone involved knows it's crap, but that it has to be done. What Babby was doing is a standard operating procedure.

i understand that, but... why? he was saying that in response to questions about trading Nash. if he knew they had no desire to keep him around in the off-season, why a) not trade him during the year or b) make your fans believe he was coming back.

it just doesn't make a lot of sense, but then again, nothing this front office does.

 

[elindholm]

The bigger issue is what made the Suns change their mind not that it happened. Babby was adamant that Nash would retire a Sun before the off season. I don't believe the Suns FO changed their mind without a significant reason.

They didn't change their mind. The earlier stuff was PR. People don't say what they mean when they're trying to sell something. It's not incompetence; it's strategic dishonesty.

Edit: SirStefan beat me to this point. But the other point, which has been rehashed ad nauseam, is that the Suns were trying to make the playoffs last year. Probably they thought that they were better than they were. After they missed the playoffs, they had a chance to back off and say, "Hmm, maybe Nash and a bunch of scrubs really isn't such a great idea after all, as promising as it may have looked a few months ago." That's not a lack of a plan; it's re-assessing your situation as you get more information.

For some reason there is a rhetoric in our society that only the weak ever change their minds, but it's exactly the opposite: it is the weak who are incapable of changing their minds, no matter how much the evidence starts to point in another direction.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

That's not a lack of a plan; it's re-assessing your situation as you get more information.

For some reason there is a rhetoric in our society that only the weak ever change their minds, but it's exactly the opposite: it is the weak who are incapable of changing their minds, no matter how much the evidence starts to point in another direction.

Eric -

I think you're misunderstanding our point. While many of us are happy that the FO finally realized that the current roster has zero chance of accomplishing anything in the playoffs, most anyone who follows the NBA closely realized that over a year ago.

I am sure you can find gobs of threads from plenty of us saying that at best our team would be fighting for a chance to get swept in the first round, with few assets going forward, and little chance to use the playoffs as a stepping stone. Everyone KNEW this team was garbage, yet the team kept Nash the entire season, kept saying that we were going to remain competitive despite all logic.

I'm glad they finally figured out the train was going nowhere; unfortunately they were 2 years too late, and that gives me little confidence going forward, especially when they were the only ones expressing confidence in our roster BOTH in what they said, and their roster moves.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I just want to know why Babby and Nash parted ways, objectively, without getting into all this rivalry stuff. Babby wanted Nash to retire a Sun and then he doesn't even try to keep him. It just doesn't make sense. It's not like Babby had to match Toronto's incredible offer. Babby knew what Nash would likely command in the off season yet he babbles on how he wants Nash to be a Sun for life.

There is some part missing and it's not money, a championship or Nash wanting to be a Laker... it's why, all of a sudden, the Suns didn't want Nash. No offer from the Suns.

Its simple. Nash wanted and improved roster and a chance at the playoffs. Babby knew that that could not happen. We had to go young and we could not patch it up anymore. Nash would not want to be part of a rebuilding process.

So the parting was inevitable if undesired.

 

[elindholm]

Eric -

I think you're misunderstanding our point. While many of us are happy that the FO finally realized that the current roster has zero chance of accomplishing anything in the playoffs, most anyone who follows the NBA closely realized that over a year ago.

I am sure you can find gobs of threads from plenty of us saying that at best our team would be fighting for a chance to get swept in the first round, with few assets going forward, and little chance to use the playoffs as a stepping stone. Everyone KNEW this team was garbage, yet the team kept Nash the entire season, kept saying that we were going to remain competitive despite all logic.

I'm glad they finally figured out the train was going nowhere; unfortunately they were 2 years too late, and that gives me little confidence going forward, especially when they were the only ones expressing confidence in our roster BOTH in what they said, and their roster moves.

I understand that. But, if we stipulate that it was an error to keep the old roster together, then breaking it up now is a good decision, not a bad one. I get the sense that some people wanted the roster broken up earlier and are angry that it's being broken up now instead of kept together, and that doesn't make much sense.

Their plan was to try to push for the playoffs last year, and while I agree that that was a questionable decision, it doesn't by itself indicate a clueless front office -- or at least it doesn't to me. So now they're smart enough to say, "Okay, that plan didn't work, time to try something else." I'd certainly rather have that than the alternative, which is to say, "Well, that plan didn't work, but maybe we just need to try it again, around an even older core." And, in fact, we had numerous posters on this board living in fear that they would do exactly that.

So now they aren't doing it, and everyone is mad anyway. I don't get it. The old mistake is old news; there's no point arguing it anymore. From this point forward, I think nearly everyone would agree that letting Nash move on was the correct decision, especially since the Suns can get some assets out of the deal. And the fact that he's going to the Lakers shouldn't matter in the least, unless of course there was a possible deal with another team that would have been more to the Suns' advantage.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I understand that. But, if we stipulate that it was an error to keep the old roster together, then breaking it up now is a good decision, not a bad one. I get the sense that some people wanted the roster broken up earlier and are angry that it's being broken up now instead of kept together, and that doesn't make much sense.

where in the world do you get that sense? people who wanted the roster broken up earlier are happy that the rosters finally broken up. a lot of them just aren't happy that we helped one of our most beloved players go to our most hated rival.

this really isn't difficult AT ALL to understand.

 

[Cheesebeef]

And the fact that he's going to the Lakers shouldn't matter in the least, unless of course there was a possible deal with another team that would have been more to the Suns' advantage.

considering we hopped to the Lakers deal IMMEDIATELY, we'll never know if there's was another deal with another team that would have been more advantageous. Hell, apparently WE initiated those talks with the Lakers.

and you say Nash going to the Lakers shouldn't matter in the least... well, I don't get that. I don't know how to say this without sounding insulting (and I'm really not trying to be) but you'd have to be wired like a robot not to have any emotional feeling watching our most beloved player go to our most hated rival. I mean, I can understand where you're coming from. but it's a real head-scratcher to me that you can't understand where a lot of us are coming from.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I understand that. But, if we stipulate that it was an error to keep the old roster together, then breaking it up now is a good decision, not a bad one. I get the sense that some people wanted the roster broken up earlier and are angry that it's being broken up now instead of kept together, and that doesn't make much sense.

Their plan was to try to push for the playoffs last year, and while I agree that that was a questionable decision, it doesn't by itself indicate a clueless front office -- or at least it doesn't to me. So now they're smart enough to say, "Okay, that plan didn't work, time to try something else." I'd certainly rather have that than the alternative, which is to say, "Well, that plan didn't work, but maybe we just need to try it again, around an even older core." And, in fact, we had numerous posters on this board living in fear that they would do exactly that.

So now they aren't doing it, and everyone is mad anyway. I don't get it. The old mistake is old news; there's no point arguing it anymore. From this point forward, I think nearly everyone would agree that letting Nash move on was the correct decision, especially since the Suns can get some assets out of the deal. And the fact that he's going to the Lakers shouldn't matter in the least, unless of course there was a possible deal with another team that would have been more to the Suns' advantage.

It does boggle my mind why some are mad about the Lakers trade. But you criticized it too, saying we should have shopped Nash to get more. I think people are just generally mad. Mad that Steve is with the Lakers, mad that we didn't win a title with Nash, mad that Steve has a chance to win one with the Lakers (anyone else would have been ok, especially someone in the East), mad that we are spending money, mad that we are NOT spending money, mad we traded Dragic, mad we're getting him back, etc etc etc.

Its a good thing mgmt doesn't pay attention to message boards, they would go insane.

Its like the person who named his dog "Stay". "Here, Stay!" "Stay, here!"

I'm not bitter against Steve because he went to the Lakers, and I am not bitter against mgmt for trading him there. But I certainly don't understand those who say they will be rooting for the Lakers now (in addition to the Suns) because Steve is there. He is a Laker. The Lakers are the enemy. I want Steve to miserably fail now. Not because I hate him, but because I hate the Lakers.

 

[sunsfan88]

Steve Nash shall always be known as the best and most classy Phoenix Subs player of all time.

Thank you for making this franchise relevant again Steve!

 

[sunsfan88]

considering we hopped to the Lakers deal IMMEDIATELY, we'll never know if there's was another deal with another team that would have been more advantageous. Hell, apparently WE initiated those talks with the Lakers.

and you say Nash going to the Lakers shouldn't matter in the least... well, I don't get that. I don't know how to say this without sounding insulting (and I'm really not trying to be) but you'd have to be wired like a robot not to have any emotional feeling watching our most beloved player go to our most hated rival. I mean, I can understand where you're coming from. but it's a real head-scratcher to me that you can't understand where a lot of us are coming from.

What the hell don't you understand? Nash didn't go to the Lakers to go play with Kobe and company. He went to the Lakers because he wanted to be closer to his kids.

Family >>>>>> EVERYTHING

If Nash did what Ray Allen did and chose the team that was best for him to win a title or go play with superstars or whatever then yes I would probably not like Nash very much but this was strictly a family decision.

 

[Griffin]

Nash would not want to be part of a rebuilding process.

Nash: "I did want to come back, move the franchise forward and leave it in a better place than the past two seasons."

Babby knew that that could not happen. We had to go young and we could not patch it up anymore.

From a financial standpoint, it could have happened. The Suns signed Dragic to a similar contract to what Nash got from the Lakers.

So if Babby knew that it wasn't going to happen for other reasons, that the team preferred to invest that money in a younger PG, I can somewhat understand him lying to the fans as part of PR, but why lie to your players? All indications are that Nash had no idea that the Suns had no plans of re-signing him until just recently. So either the Suns just conceived that plan a week ago, or they didn't bother to let Nash know in advance and thought he'd figure it out when they don't make him an offer.

A lot of people seem to be arguing different points in this thread. This is my only point. It seems to me the FO did not handle this situation as it should have been handled, given what's been said last year and given the history. Now I suppose in part they made amends for that to Nash by sending him to a destination of his choice despite their reluctance, but it still doesn't excuse how the Suns handled this transition. I don't know at what point the Suns decided to bring back Dragic, but I can't imagine they were thinking that when they drafted Marshall just over a week ago. That tells me that their plans change by the minute.

 

[sunsfan88]

Marshall was BPA. That's why he was drafted.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Marshall was BPA. That's why he was drafted.

no he wasn't. he wasn't even invited to the draft because no one thought he'd go in the lottery.

 

[Chaplin]

no he wasn't. he wasn't even invited to the draft because no one thought he'd go in the lottery.

Who do you think was significantly better at the time?

 

[elindholm]

Drafting Marshall and signing Dragic aren't related. Rookies are very rarely ready to step into the starting lineup, and especially not those taken at the end of the lottery, and especially not those who play what is commonly regarded as the hardest position to learn. Marshall and Telfair weren't going to get it done as a PG rotation, in any sense -- the team would not only have been bad, but would have been bad in a way that would have interfered with the development of any other players.

As for the Lakers, I guess I don't dislike them as much as I dislike the Spurs. Sure, the Lakers have historically been the big brother who has made the Suns feel inferior, but I feel like every time the Lakers have eliminated the Suns in the playoffs, it's because they've been the better team. (And keep in mind that the Suns really haven't fared too badly going the other way, eliminating the Lakers twice during the Nash era.) The Spurs have beaten the Suns by working the officials better, which is a skill, but not one I can respect.

If Nash had gone to the Spurs, I might feel more of the same sting that others are complaining about. But the Lakers, eh, whatever, that's just one more team that's much better than the Suns -- and let's face it, there are plenty of those these days.

Besides, if the Lakers win next year's title instead of the Heat, I can live with that.

 

[elindholm]

Nash: "I did want to come back, move the franchise forward and leave it in a better place than the past two seasons."

Nash is being disingenuous. I'm not sure why people are all up in arms about the front office changing its tune, when Nash is doing the same thing. He said late last season that he didn't want to come back to the Suns unless they made significant upgrades to the roster. That's not "moving the franchise forward," it's going along for the ride while the franchise moves itself forward. And then just a few weeks ago, he came out and listed a whole bunch of priorities for where he would go next, making it sound like he was laying the groundwork for walking away from the Suns.

I don't begrudge Nash, because it's a business and that's what players do. But for him to come out now and say, "Oh, woe is me, I wanted to be with Phoenix all along but they don't love me anymore, sniff sniff" is pretty cheap, frankly, and certainly not something that anyone here should take at face value.

 

[Chaplin]

Nash is being disingenuous. I'm not sure why people are all up in arms about the front office changing its tune, when Nash is doing the same thing. He said late last season that he didn't want to come back to the Suns unless they made significant upgrades to the roster. That's not "moving the franchise forward," it's going along for the ride while the franchise moves itself forward. And then just a few weeks ago, he came out and listed a whole bunch of priorities for where he would go next, making it sound like he was laying the groundwork for walking away from the Suns.

I don't begrudge Nash, because it's a business and that's what players do. But for him to come out now and say, "Oh, woe is me, I wanted to be with Phoenix all along but they don't love me anymore, sniff sniff" is pretty cheap, frankly, and certainly not something that anyone here should take at face value.

Absolutely Eric.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

I understand that. But, if we stipulate that it was an error to keep the old roster together, then breaking it up now is a good decision, not a bad one. I get the sense that some people wanted the roster broken up earlier and are angry that it's being broken up now instead of kept together, and that doesn't make much sense.

Personally, I wanted the roster broken up earlier, and I'm happy that it's broken up now.

Their plan was to try to push for the playoffs last year, and while I agree that that was a questionable decision, it doesn't by itself indicate a clueless front office -- or at least it doesn't to me.

I guess that depends on your perspective. It seemed obvious that last years team was hopeless, and if the goal was to make the playoffs to get embarrassed, that's a horrible goal.

It's one thing to be satisfied with making the playoffs and getting some playoff experience for your young players, ala the Marbury team with Matrix, JJ and Amare. It's been proven time and time again that teams need to take their lumps and that young players need to experience "playoff basketball". This team was the boxer well past his prime, getting smacked around for no reason, with everyone shaking their heads wondering what the point is.

As soon as the Suns gave up on Amare, it was time to rebuild.

In sports, you're either competing for a championship, or rebuilding to compete for one. For the last couple years, this team has been selling it's fan base a bill of goods and retarding the rebuild process.

I'm glad they finally see the light, I'm concerned that it took them this long.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Who do you think was significantly better at the time?

Depends on what you're looking for. Marshall, like Morris, is a safe but uninspiring pick with a low ceiling. Personally, I'd prefer taking a chance with a higher risk player who had more potential...trading back for a Royce White or Moutine, or getting a couple of those guys. (Or trading up to get a player you think has a legit shot of being a good starter)

Career bench player talent like Marshall and Morris just doesn't excite me.

 

[SunsTzu]

Who do you think was significantly better at the time?

There wasn't any, and the only guys left in the green room were Henson and Zeller. If that's the measuring stick being used I'd take Marshall over those 2.

All the players available at 13 have big question marks which is why they were available at 13, most will not be able to address those question marks and will fail to make a significant impact on the league. Marshall at least has an elite NBA level skill working for him. If he can develop a way to score at a decent rate off the dribble I think he can be a significant contributor to a good team.

 

[Mainstreet]

Drafting Marshall and signing Dragic aren't related. Rookies are very rarely ready to step into the starting lineup, and especially not those taken at the end of the lottery, and especially not those who play what is commonly regarded as the hardest position to learn. Marshall and Telfair weren't going to get it done as a PG rotation, in any sense -- the team would not only have been bad, but would have been bad in a way that would have interfered with the development of any other players.

As for the Lakers, I guess I don't dislike them as much as I dislike the Spurs. Sure, the Lakers have historically been the big brother who has made the Suns feel inferior, but I feel like every time the Lakers have eliminated the Suns in the playoffs, it's because they've been the better team. (And keep in mind that the Suns really haven't fared too badly going the other way, eliminating the Lakers twice during the Nash era.) The Spurs have beaten the Suns by working the officials better, which is a skill, but not one I can respect.

If Nash had gone to the Spurs, I might feel more of the same sting that others are complaining about. But the Lakers, eh, whatever, that's just one more team that's much better than the Suns -- and let's face it, there are plenty of those these days.

Besides, if the Lakers win next year's title instead of the Heat, I can live with that.

I totally agree with this post.

 

[Mainstreet]

Nash is being disingenuous. I'm not sure why people are all up in arms about the front office changing its tune, when Nash is doing the same thing. He said late last season that he didn't want to come back to the Suns unless they made significant upgrades to the roster. That's not "moving the franchise forward," it's going along for the ride while the franchise moves itself forward. And then just a few weeks ago, he came out and listed a whole bunch of priorities for where he would go next, making it sound like he was laying the groundwork for walking away from the Suns.

I don't begrudge Nash, because it's a business and that's what players do. But for him to come out now and say, "Oh, woe is me, I wanted to be with Phoenix all along but they don't love me anymore, sniff sniff" is pretty cheap, frankly, and certainly not something that anyone here should take at face value.

I totally disagree with this post.

 

[elindholm]

I totally agree with this post.

I totally disagree with this post.

Heh!