A Graves Situation

[THESMEL]

actually Graves has signed Emmitt Smith the all time rusher,
and Edgerine James top 10 rushing and yards from scrimmage.

People treated Edge like dung for getting 2- 1000 yard seasons in row?
When was the last time we had that.... look it up.
I mean we have only had 2 other 1000 yard rushers in a season in Arizona, by the slimmest of margins.

! agree Graves is a weak, GM but not supervising Denny and the OC firing and bring back after MNM.

And allowing Whiz this PGC/RGC stuff,
weakest least experienced staff in the NFL,
screwed up personeel moves like you mentioned + Porter, Faneca, Mc fadden, Ross, R Wells. MATT LEINART!

Yea Graves has to supervise and sign off on that crap!
Parcells, Mike Lombardi. Marty Schottenheimer,hell even Matt Millen would not,
Millen might try some creative stupid thing on his own , But Millen Would not have Signed 8+million a year for Porter years past his prime,
Jets paid most of Faneca's 8+ million but Mcfadden is back starting with Steelers!

That is embarressing...... Graves should have his head in the sand!

Hope this helps, We had great talent and still do
the coaches are mismanaging our talent
Graves signs off on stupid deals, his job is to supervise and say : no you big stupids

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

actually Graves has signed Emmitt Smith the all time rusher, and Edgerine James top 10 rushing and yards from scrimmage.
People treated Edge like dung for getting 2 1000 yard seasons in row? When was the last time we had that.... look it up. I mean we have only had 2 other 1000 yard rushers season in Arizona, by the slimmest of margins.

A agree Graves is a weak, GM but not supervising Denny and the OC firing and bring back after MNM.

And allowing Whiz this PGC/RGC stuff, weakest least experienced staff in the NFL, screwed up personeel moves like you mentioned + Porter, Faneca, Mc fadden, Ross, R Wells. MATT LEINART!

Yea Graves has to supervise and sign off on that crap! Parcells, Mike Lombardi. Marty Schottenheimer,hell even Matt Millen would not, He might try some creative stupid thing on his own , But Millen Would not have Signed 8+million a year for Porter years past his prime, Jets paid most of Faneca's 8+ million but Mcfad is back starting with Steelers!

That is embarressing...... Graves should have his head in the sand!

THESMEL, I like you but I have no idea what you just said.

 

[MrYeahBut]

Somehow I just don't see Graves taking the fall for any of this mess. He's joined at the hip with somebody upstairs.

They'll just get a new coach and start the process over again. Rinse, repeat

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

Somehow I just don't see Graves taking the fall for any of this mess. He's joined at the hip with somebody upstairs.

They'll just get a new coach and start the process over again. Rinse, repeat

Sadly, you're probably right. Graves may even get a raise out of this.

 

[Stout]

As usual, if the team fails, Graves catches all the flack and when it succeeds, Whisenhunt receives all the kudos.

Graves job is to get the people his coaches/scouts want and to try and hang onto the people they want to keep. That's what any good GM will do and it's what their job is supposed to be.

And as usual, you absolve Rod Graves of all responsibility for everything. It is not his job to simply be a puppet for the coaches and scouts. It is his job, as he is THEIR BOSS, to evaluate what they want and decide if they're fits or not good fits. He is the FIRST that deserves blame for personnel mistakes.

 

[THESMEL]

tried

I tried to reorganize the original post.
We have the talent now to win the NFCW
Graves had to sign off on Leinart, R Wells, Rollle, and 2 Dansby franchise tags!
He also had to sign off on Mike Miller at OC! chris Miller at QB coach. clancy and Davis as DC!
Sometimes he has to be strong and say HELL no or you will be Mr. Whisenhunt!

THESMEL, I like you but I have no idea what you just said.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Whiz is going down with the ship on this one, there's no way I see Graves getting pryed out of the GM position in time to save him.

To me it's just a question of time until someone else figures this out high enough to get a new GM, could be a long while though based on past experience.

I am moving into the boat that says Whiz isn't worth saving, cause I know he has player input and it aint helping.

Whisenhunt doesn't watch 1000's of hours of college game film, attend University practices/games, and do all the work a scouting staff does.

The scouting staff presents the GM/coaching staff with a list of players fitting some of the traits they look for in players. They rank them too.

So if talent is still an issue, the GM/scouting staff is a major fault here. Even when the coach has personnel input, it's still based on the scouting staffs input.

 

[Duckjake]

Whisenhunt doesn't watch 1000's of hours of college game film, attend University practices/games, and do all the work a scouting staff does.

The scouting staff presents the GM/coaching staff with a list of players fitting some of the traits they look for in players. They rank them too.

So if talent is still an issue, the GM/scouting staff is a major fault here. Even when the coach has personnel input, it's still based on the scouting staffs input.

The assistant coaches also put their 2 cents worth in. According to the book "Next Man Up" the Ravens AC's would actually lobby for certain players. I need to read the part of that book on the draft again as I don't remember what it said about GM Ozzie Newsome and his role in draft selections.

 

[fball13]

Whisenhunt doesn't watch 1000's of hours of college game film, attend University practices/games, and do all the work a scouting staff does.

The scouting staff presents the GM/coaching staff with a list of players fitting some of the traits they look for in players. They rank them too.

So if talent is still an issue, the GM/scouting staff is a major fault here. Even when the coach has personnel input, it's still based on the scouting staffs input.

I don't think it's a talent issue with the red birds... I'd put our lineup against just about any team in the NFL with respect to individual talent. The reality in the NFL is that there are two ways to be a winning organization:
1. Have a top 5 QB (talent at one position - see Cardinals superbowl year)
or
2. Have a QB that doesn't lose games + a top 10 Defense (Coaching, coaching, and more coaching).
* Note: of course some teams have both a top 5 QB and top 10 D...

Just take a look at the Colts with and without Manning. I'm sure these Graves haters would have said for the past 3 years that the Colts had more talent than the Cards. BS - they had one of the best QBs of all time.

So, to me, this team's lack of performance is 100% on the coaching. Poor play calling (ex: calling a screen play in the last drive when we've completed 10% of all screen passes called this year), Overly complex schemes & Predictable situational play calls.

Let's face it, when we went to the SB, the D sucked, but our top 5 QB took over the offense and lead us to the championship. We haven't seen good coaching in the desert for a long, long time...

 

[az240zz]

this

 

[Duckjake]

Just take a look at the Colts with and without Manning. I'm sure these Graves haters would have said for the past 3 years that the Colts had more talent than the Cards. BS - they had one of the best QBs of all time.

Considering that 2008 and 2009 the Cards had the best talent they've had probably since the start of free agency you might be right. But most of those guys are gone now replaced by young guys who lack experience and old guys who no longer have the legs.

The Colts talent level has also dropped off the last couple of years. One reason they were 10-6 last season after 7 years of 12+ win seasons.

 

[conraddobler]

I don't think it's a talent issue with the red birds... I'd put our lineup against just about any team in the NFL with respect to individual talent. The reality in the NFL is that there are two ways to be a winning organization:
1. Have a top 5 QB (talent at one position - see Cardinals superbowl year)
or
2. Have a QB that doesn't lose games + a top 10 Defense (Coaching, coaching, and more coaching).
* Note: of course some teams have both a top 5 QB and top 10 D...

Just take a look at the Colts with and without Manning. I'm sure these Graves haters would have said for the past 3 years that the Colts had more talent than the Cards. BS - they had one of the best QBs of all time.

So, to me, this team's lack of performance is 100% on the coaching. Poor play calling (ex: calling a screen play in the last drive when we've completed 10% of all screen passes called this year), Overly complex schemes & Predictable situational play calls.

Let's face it, when we went to the SB, the D sucked, but our top 5 QB took over the offense and lead us to the championship. We haven't seen good coaching in the desert for a long, long time...

Tobin actually had some good coaching, I remember Fassell's offense was I thought very well coached.

It's been pretty much a desert on coaching, pun intended.

Coryell was good offensively too and there have been a few years of defensive domination, possibly under Buddy but we never seem to put both together.

Haley was good working with Warner.

In 40 years of Cardinal football I can think of about 5 years where I considered the coaching to be above average ON ANY PART OF THE TEAM.

Most of the time it's pathetic.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

As usual, if the team fails, Graves catches all the flack and when it succeeds, Whisenhunt receives all the kudos.

Graves job is to get the people his coaches/scouts want and to try and hang onto the people they want to keep. That's what any good GM will do and it's what their job is supposed to be.

Please. If you think that Whisenhunt will keep his job while Graves gets scapegoated then you don't follow Bidwill family history too well. Graves is staying unfortunately.

Think of it this way - Graves has been the de facto GM for nine years. Our record during that time is 57-80 with only two winning seasons and playoff appearances. That gets you fired in EVERY NFL city except Arizona and maybe Cincinnati.

 

[john h]

People keep asking me what’s wrong with the Cardinals? The answer is easy; personnel. How fast can you name a top running back either drafted or signed by Graves? How about doing the same with an offensive tackle? Looking for a pass rusher? Well they did sign Bertrand Berry, but you’d be hard pressed to come up with another name. It’s quicker to think of the ones he missed, like Suggs.

Graves has done well drafting receivers, but then traded away one record setter and let another 1000yd (I know only once) receiver leave. Hoping for a top tight end? Well maybe Graves got you one on the downside of his career. That’s when Graves gets his best players. He seems to sign people based on their career stats. Think about Emmitt Smith, Edgerrin James, Vonnie Holliday (this season) and a host of others.

Fitzgerald had to pick out a quarterback for Graves! It’s not like Graves has typically been drafting late in rounds during his tenure. Oh sure he’s hit on a few mid-round selections, but even a blind squirrel occasionally finds an acorn. You would be hard pressed to find a more incompetent set of first round choices. Only Fitzgerald stands out. Rolle, DRC and Wells would be classed as serviceable. Wendell Bryant, Bryant Johnson, Pace, Leinart and Brown do not resemble first round quality. The Cards keeping talking about all the picks making the team. The only reason that happens is that those selections keep displacing underachievers from the previous drafts. They are usually not upgrades.

Once again this team will finish with a losing record in a division of teams with losing records. Another 7-9 winner (probably SF) will likely spell the end of teams with losing records going to the playoffs while 10 win teams watch. The Cards can keep bringing in DCs, but little will change. No one can defend with personnel of this quality. Unless the latest generation of Bidwills is seeking to be Dollar Bill the Second, he needs to remold this organization, not just this team. That process starts with Graves!

Harry for many years I have complained over and over again about Graves. It seems he has Tenure with the Bidwill family and is more important than winning. On any other team he would have been gone by now. Perhaps Warner extended his career. Today I still wonder if he makes the final call on who we draft or trade? His won lost record after his many years here would sure suggest he be fired. I do not see this happening I am sorry to say as their is some connection he has with the Bidwills that override his football savvy.

 

[conraddobler]

Please. If you think that Whisenhunt will keep his job while Graves gets scapegoated then you don't follow Bidwill family history too well. Graves is staying unfortunately.

Think of it this way - Graves has been the de facto GM for nine years. Our record during that time is 57-80 with only two winning seasons and playoff appearances. That gets you fired in EVERY NFL city except Arizona and maybe Cincinnati.

Bingo.

 

[Denny Green Fan]

Harry,

I agree.

Who would you recommend as a replacement for Graves?

Ted Thompson

 

[conraddobler]

Harry for many years I have complained over and over again about Graves. It seems he has Tenure with the Bidwill family and is more important than winning. On any other team he would have been gone by now. Perhaps Warner extended his career. Today I still wonder if he makes the final call on who we draft or trade? His won lost record after his many years here would sure suggest he be fired. I do not see this happening I am sorry to say as their is some connection he has with the Bidwills that override his football savvy.

They need to move him into just doing contracts, they don't have to fire him.

It's the only option I see the old man ever allowing.

 

[40yearfan]

After watching that calamity on Sunday and giving it much thought, this whole argument about not having good enough players is bogus. Our level of talent is on a par with just about every other NFL team.

I hear all this crying and complaining about not hiring every cast off from every other NFL team and how bad our drafting is, but our track record in both areas is average or above. Of course, we could have done like the Eagles did this past off-season, hired all the best players available and created the "Dream Team" and then we could have been just as good as they are 1 - 3. Oh wait----------.

This team doesn't need better players, it needs players with more heart, players who will play all 60 minutes with the same intensity as they have at the start of the game. It needs coaches with more fire in their belly, coaches who refuse to accept losing, coaches that show real emotion when dealing with players, refs, etc. We don't have that. Until we do figure out a way to get it, the results are always going to be the same.

 

[Cheesebeef]

After watching that calamity on Sunday and giving it much thought, this whole argument about not having good enough players is bogus. Our level of talent is on a par with just about every other NFL team.

I think we'll find out rather soon that this is really not the case. We don't have legitimate NFL CBs, OLBs, LT or Safeties... and those are (outside of S) pretty much the most important positions on the field outside of QB... where who the heck knows what we have.

We seemingly have good depth at DL/TE, an incredible WR (and pretty much nothing else at the position), a very good RB if he can stay healthy, a solid interior of the OL and that's about it.

I hear all this crying and complaining about not hiring every cast off from every other NFL team and how bad our drafting is, but our track record in both areas is average or above.

Of course, we could have done like the Eagles did this past off-season, hired all the best players available and created the "Dream Team" and then we could have been just as good as they are 1 - 3. Oh wait----------.

This team doesn't need better players, it needs players with more heart, players who will play all 60 minutes with the same intensity as they have at the start of the game.

you just described "better players" while saying we don't need better players.

It needs coaches with more fire in their belly, coaches who refuse to accept losing, coaches that show real emotion when dealing with players, refs, etc. We don't have that.

so, what you're saying is we need better players and better coaches. isn't it Rod Graves JOB to find those?!

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

As usual, if the team fails, Graves catches all the flack and when it succeeds, Whisenhunt receives all the kudos.

Graves job is to get the people his coaches/scouts want and to try and hang onto the people they want to keep. That's what any good GM will do and it's what their job is supposed to be.

Except he hasnt done that...

Calvin Pace
Antonio Smith
Karlos Dansaby
Antrelle Rolle
Steve Breaston
etc etc

You dont think this team is different with those guys on it?

 

[Crazy Canuck]

Except he hasnt done that...

Calvin Pace
Antonio Smith
Karlos Dansaby
Antrelle Rolle
Steve Breaston
etc etc

You dont think this team is different with those guys on it?

Would I like them all on the team? Yes.

But, there are reasons in each case as to why they're no longer with us.

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

Would I like them all on the team? Yes.

But, there are reasons in each case as to why they're no longer with us.

Of course there are reasons and it usually comes down to one: Money.

Do I think all of them deserved the contract they got? No, but how much better is this team right now with Pace and Dansby and maybe Breaston?

 

[40yearfan]

I think we'll find out rather soon that this is really not the case. We don't have legitimate NFL CBs, OLBs, LT or Safeties... and those are (outside of S) pretty much the most important positions on the field outside of QB... where who the heck knows what we have.

I disagree Cheese. Our talent is no better or no worse than most other NFL teams

We seemingly have good depth at DL/TE, an incredible WR (and pretty much nothing else at the position), a very good RB if he can stay healthy, a solid interior of the OL and that's about it.



you just described "better players" while saying we don't need better players.

I'm saying we don't have anyone who has a real will to win be it player or coach. If one of our players or coaches isn't willing to step up to fill this roll, than we need to get someone who will. It could be one person or a group of persons. We need a Warner.

so, what you're saying is we need better players and better coaches. isn't it Rod Graves JOB to find those?!

I didn't say we need better players and coaches. See my above comment.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Would I like them all on the team? Yes.

But, there are reasons in each case as to why they're no longer with us.

because their contracts ended and hit FA where deals are bloated and we didn't have the foresight to lock them up with extensions while we could?

 

[40yearfan]

Except he hasnt done that...

Calvin Pace
Antonio Smith
Karlos Dansaby
Antrelle Rolle
Steve Breaston
etc etc

You dont think this team is different with those guys on it?

If we had kept Pace and Smith, we probably wouldn't have gotten Campbell. I think he is much better than either of them. Washington is going to make everyone forget about Dansby. I'd much rather have Rhodes than Rolle and Doucet is having a much better year than Breaston is.

So yes, I do think the team would be different with those guys on it, but I don't think it would be any better.