A Marion trade that works under the cap

[slinslin]

Don't blast me but this is a pretty simple trade that could benefit all teams a lot.

Not saying it is perfectly balanced or anything. Picks could be added some ways, but the trade works under the cap with either Hughes or Stackhouse.

Washington could get like Utah's pick and New York's pick lottery protected for their pick or something like that.

Phoenix trades:
Shawn Marion

Phoenix receives:
Kwame Brown

Washington trades:
Kwame Brown
Larry Hughes OR Jerry Stackhouse

Washington receives
Shawn Marion

Utah trades
2nd rounder or something

Utah receives
Jerry Stackhouse or Larry Hughes


Phoenix does it
Because Shawn Marion will ultimately turn into their thrid option at best.
They get capspace for this offseason.
Kwame Brown is quitely breaking out 7' and very strong.

Phoenix lineup
Kwame/Voshkul/Lampe
Amare
Warrick(draft)/Zarko
JJ/Jacobsen
Barbosa/Vujanic

+ more capspace and probably another pick

Washington does it
Because they get an allstar player and easily the best player on their roster.

Haywood/Thomas
Jeffries/draftpick/Laettner
Marion/draftpick
Hughes or Stackhouse/Hayes
Arenas/Blake

Utah does it
They get a starting caliber SG for very little to compensate the trade and help their playoff run.

Ostertag/Collins
Kirilenko
Bell(Harpring)
Hughes or Stackhouse/Stevenson
Arroyo/Lopez

Lots of cap space

 

[Ryanwb]

I like it, however I don't think Washington will trade Brown now that he is finally starting to show promise

 

[Chaplin]

BYC

BYC

BYC

BYC

Maybe you need someone to explain the concept to you.

 

[newfan101]

Originally posted by Chaplin
BYC

BYC

BYC

BYC

Maybe you need someone to explain the concept to you.

Actually, at first glance, I believe that would work despite the BYC, to say nothing of the possibility of it ever happening. Since Utah gets the salary difference between Marion and Kwame, the Washington-Phoenix portion of the trade would work under the CBA. I could be wrong, but it looks ok.

However, I can't see Washington trading Kwame at this point.

 

[hcsilla]

Originally posted by Chaplin
BYC

BYC

BYC

BYC

Maybe you need someone to explain the concept to you.

Your reply to every single Marion-trade is BYC which is a bit strange since you don't really seem to understand what BYC is.

 

[Ryanwb]

Originally posted by hcsilla
Your reply to every single Marion-trade is BYC which is a bit strange since you don't really seem to understand what BYC is.

 

[hcsilla]

Originally posted by newfan101
Actually, at first glance, I believe that would work despite the BYC, to say nothing of the possibility of it ever happening. Since Utah gets the salary difference between Marion and Kwame, the Washington-Phoenix portion of the trade would work under the CBA. I could be wrong, but it looks ok.

It does because it does work under the cap.


Marion is still a legit 20/10 player who is still one of the best (if not the best) complementary players in NBA).
He just has a bad season concerning his outside shooting.

I wouldn't trade him for a young, unproven bigman with questionable character. That would be another huge step back.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by hcsilla
Your reply to every single Marion-trade is BYC which is a bit strange since you don't really seem to understand what BYC is.

Actually I'm just sick of every wannabe GM on this board wanting to trade Marion. Whether they can or not.

If I am wrong about the BYC stipulation on his contract, then I admit I am wrong (and it appears I am in this case).

And Washington loses Stackhouse or Hughes and Brown for Marion? That's they're 2 best players! :LOL:

 

[Ryanwb]

Originally posted by Chaplin
And Washington loses Stackhouse, Hughes and Brown for Marion? That's they're 3 best players! :LOL:

Wrong again! He said Hughes OR Stackhouse

 

[Joe Mama]

Originally posted by Ryanwb
Wrong again! He said Hughes OR Stackhouse

Either way, can't see why Washington would make the trade.

Joe Mama

 

[Chaplin]

Why would anyone do that??

We trade away the best rebounding small forward in the game for Kwame Brown? That's like Detroit trading us Ben Wallace for Joe Johnson. Brown is having a decent year (but not as good as Shawn), but he has far from proven he isn't a bust. JJ isn't a bust either, but he still hasn't convinced anyone he's going to be consistent yet.

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by Joe Mama
Either way, can't see why Washington would make the trade.

Joe Mama

I agree. K Brown is beginning to show promise. That's why you might want him, but is also why they wouldn't trade him.

Ignoring the cap and salary issues for a moment, would you trade Marion for Eddy Curry - a promising big guy who is not playing well? I wouldn't. But most "great" trades are made for guys who are not playing well. Unfortunately, most "bad" trades are for guys who continue to play badly after the trade.

Trading for K Brown because he has been playing well lately is the same as trading for Curry after his performance late last year. It is a crap shoot.

In any case, I don't see any way the deal makes sense to the Wizzards.

 

[newfan101]

Originally posted by Chaplin
Why would anyone do that??

We trade away the best rebounding small forward in the game for Kwame Brown? That's like Detroit trading us Ben Wallace for Joe Johnson. Brown is having a decent year (but not as good as Shawn), but he has far from proven he isn't a bust. JJ isn't a bust either, but he still hasn't convinced anyone he's going to be consistent yet.

I'm not trying to justify trade rumors, but I have to disagree with that analogy. I cant remember the last time a big man of Wallace's caliber was traded for an unproven guard or small forward with potential. It just doesn't happen. However, many teams will sacrafice a small forward or guard of Marion's caliber to take a flyer on a big man with potential. I'm not saying I would make that particular trade, but Washington would stand to lose a lot more on that deal if Brown ever lived up to his potential. That's why it might take a player like Marion to pry guys like Brown, Chandler, or Curry away from their respective teams.

I think it's important to keep this in mind, because if the Suns want to free up more cap space over the summer, they may make a deal like that involving an unproven big man.

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by newfan101
I'm not trying to justify trade rumors, but I have to disagree with that analogy. I cant remember the last time a big man of Wallace's caliber was traded for an unproven guard or small forward with potential. It just doesn't happen. However, many teams will sacrafice a small forward or guard of Marion's caliber to take a flyer on a big man with potential. I'm not saying I would make that particular trade, but Washington would stand to lose a lot more on that deal if Brown ever lived up to his potential. That's why it might take a player like Marion to pry guys like Brown, Chandler, or Curry away from their respective teams.

I think it's important to keep this in mind, because if the Suns want to free up more cap space over the summer, they may make a deal like that involving an unproven big man.

The question is just how unproven.

About 15 years ago the Warriors traded Mitch Richmond for Billy Owens. Owens was about 4 inches taller than Mitch and was very long. Richmond was strictly a guard and Ownes could play four positions. Owens could dribble, shoot, rebound, etc.

No brainer? Owens never became more than a complementary player and often just a backup. Richmond made the All Star team several times and was widely considered one of the top SG's in the NBA. Jordan called Richmond his toughest matchup.

After that one, I learned to take blanket statements about heigth and promise with a grain of salt.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by newfan101
I'm not trying to justify trade rumors, but I have to disagree with that analogy. I cant remember the last time a big man of Wallace's caliber was traded for an unproven guard or small forward with potential. It just doesn't happen. However, many teams will sacrafice a small forward or guard of Marion's caliber to take a flyer on a big man with potential. I'm not saying I would make that particular trade, but Washington would stand to lose a lot more on that deal if Brown ever lived up to his potential. That's why it might take a player like Marion to pry guys like Brown, Chandler, or Curry away from their respective teams.

I think it's important to keep this in mind, because if the Suns want to free up more cap space over the summer, they may make a deal like that involving an unproven big man.

I guess I simply don't agree with trading Marion away. For several reasons.

The main one is that if we are so willing to trade him, what makes you think a team wants him? And his contract? The very reason we would want to trade him is the same reason nobody would want to trade FOR him.

 

[newfan101]

Originally posted by George O'Brien
The question is just how unproven.

About 15 years ago the Warriors traded Mitch Richmond for Billy Owens. Owens was about 4 inches taller than Mitch and was very long. Richmond was strictly a guard and Ownes could play four positions. Owens could dribble, shoot, rebound, etc.

No brainer? Owens never became more than a complementary player and often just a backup. Richmond made the All Star team several times and was widely considered one of the top SG's in the NBA. Jordan called Richmond his toughest matchup.

After that one, I learned to take blanket statements about heigth and promise with a grain of salt.

Interesting that you should bring up Richmond. He was also traded for Chris Webber, after Webber became somewhat of an unknown because of injuries and his run-in with Don Nelson. That proved to be a disastrous trade for Washington.

Actually, I really wasn't trying to suggest that trading a proven small player for an un-proven big man is always good. More often than not, it doesn't work. I was just trying to point out that those deals DO happen, for better or worse, wereas proven big men for unproven small men deals almost never happen. Those kind of deals almost always involve multiple players (ie Barkley, Kareem), and they almost always backfire on the team trading away the big man.

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by Chaplin
I guess I simply don't agree with trading Marion away. For several reasons.

The main one is that if we are so willing to trade him, what makes you think a team wants him? And his contract? The very reason we would want to trade him is the same reason nobody would want to trade FOR him.

The easiest way to think about it is if Marion was a free agent, would a team offer him a contract of $11.6 million next year. I am guessing the answer depends on the team, but the ones with cap space are not looking for an SF let alone an expensive one.

But yes you can trade Marion - but only for someone else with a bad contract. How about Antawn Jamison? He's even more expensive at $12.5 million next year and has three more seasons after that. Jamison is a much better shooter than Marion, but grabs fewer rebounds and is not considered a first rate defender (he gets 1/2 the number of steals per game as Marion).

Or how about Keith Van Horn? He gets $14.5 million next season and a player option of $15.7 million the following season.

Or there is Antonio Davis in Chicago. He gets $12 million next year and $13 million the following year.

Or Eddie Jones in Miami. He gets $13.4 million next year and has two more years on his contract after that.

Or Jalen Rose in Toronto. He gets $14.5 million next year and has two more seasons on his contract.

Those are the kind of trades available. They CAN be done. This is a far cry from saying they should be done.

 

[SunsTzu]

Originally posted by hcsilla


Marion is still a legit 20/10 player who is still one of the best (if not the best) complementary players in NBA).
He just has a bad season concerning his outside shooting.

I wouldn't trade him for a young, unproven bigman with questionable character. That would be another huge step back.

I'm not opposed to trading Marion. However I do agree with you this trade doesn't make sense for us.

 

[sunsfn]

A number of you have said you do not think Washington would make this trade.............WHAT! What in the world makes you think the suns would make this trade.........!

Understand, the suns will not trade Marion for cap space.

Penny & Marbury yes!

He is a much better player than some of you think.

I am not saying the trade will not work, all players can be traded.

If you watched the game the other night, Kwane Brown looked as good as I have seen him play, however, he made a lot of mistakes and is a long ways from being a good player. He may never get any better than he is right now. Amare did not play in that game and we were undersized with him out. Kwane does not have near as good a game if Amare had played.

This has happened to a lot of players in the past. You do not trade Shawn Marion for cap space or Kwane Brown.

 

[scotsman13]

why in heavens good name would you give up one of the best small forwards in the nba for a player that has never done anything in his time in the nba? kwame brown is all hope and no game. he cried that doug collins was to hard on him. he cried that michael jordan was to hard on him and now they are both gone he is still doing nothing with eddie jordan (a player coach). this guy is going to go down as the single worst number #1 overall pick in nba history.

 

[slinslin]

Marion for Kwame Brown AND capspace not or.

Kwame and Amare would be a PF/C combination as good as it gets. Kwame won't get near max in the offseason when he can get an extension.

Amare would be our only max player but we would have guys who could easily become max players but aren't paid max money like JJ and Kwame.

Shawn Marion is a SF, he is not that tough to replace.


Imagine if the Suns would have 2 high picks. One Okafor and one Warrick.

You would have
C-Kwame
PF-Amare And Okafor getting the backup minutes for both. That is a very good tight 3 man rotation.

You would have Warrick and and Zarko splitting time at SF, Barbosa and Vujanic splitting time at PG and Jacobsen getting the little minutes that JJ leaves for him.

That is a nice 9-man rotation with an age average of like 22.

You keep almost all your capspace open as insurance in the future. Save money now and reserve that cap space to extend all you core players when they are up.

How about this

Suns give
Marion
Rockets pick
Knicks picks

Suns get
Kwame
Wizards pick

Wizards give
Kwame
Hughes
Wizards pick

Wizards get
Marion
Jazz pick
Knicks picks

Jazz get
Hughes

Jazz give
Rockets pick

 

[slinslin]

Originally posted by scotsman13
why in heavens good name would you give up one of the best small forwards in the nba for a player that has never done anything in his time in the nba? kwame brown is all hope and no game. he cried that doug collins was to hard on him. he cried that michael jordan was to hard on him and now they are both gone he is still doing nothing with eddie jordan (a player coach). this guy is going to go down as the single worst number #1 overall pick in nba history.

He is going to make you look very foolish.

He is 22, he is 7', he has strength and athleticism.

For the season he is averaging 10ppg 7rpg 1.5apg 48%FG 28mpg.

For january he averaged 14ppg 9rpg 1.5apg 1.5spg 1bpg 52%FG

 

[B-Dogg]

I agree Slinslin, I have wanted the Suns to go after Kwame since last year as I thought he got a raw deal in Washington, to many people give up on these young players to early anymore. Most of these guys are not given the chance to mature and when they do a la Jermaine O'Neal many of they turn into what they were supposed to be all along. Kwame could be a great center in the league and would fit beautifully with the type of game the Suns want to run...oh by the way Warrick would be a great fit at SF...

 

[Joe Mama]

Don't get me wrong. I would rather get Brown than sign Marcus Camby. I think given the right coaching and situation he could be a hell of a player. A frontline of Shawn Marion, Amare Stoudemire, and Kwame Brown would be strong on the glass and blocking a lot of shots. They would also be great in the open court. Before he was drafted I was predicted that Brown would be a top-five player in the NBA. Of course I was completely off with that prediction, but I do believe he could be a good player.

The problem is that there isn't an easy way to acquire him. The Washington wizards are not going to take Shawn Marion's contract and give up their best young player in the process. He won't even be a restricted free agent until next summer. So unless the Phoenix Suns somehow acquire one of the top picks in the draft and the wizards are in love with somebody up there its very unlikely to happen.

It's too bad there really isn't the way to acquire Tyson Chandler. In fact even if there was a way to get him he has the same amount of injury problems as Marcus Camby. Oh well.

Joe Mama

 

[George O'Brien]

One odd aspect of this trade is the notion that Utah would want Larry Hughes. Last year he shot 46.7% from the field and scored 12.8 ppg. This year his ppg is up to 18.9, but his percentage is down to 39.7%. He gets $5.4 million next season, which is the last year on his contract.

This summer, the Jazz could get Brent Barry for less money and not have to give up anything.