A Pertinent Article RE: Rebuilding

[Covert Rain]

Jeff Green was not a bust really.

What is your definition then? He was the 5th overall selection and gives you role player minutes with 7.3 PPG and 2.7 rebounds.

Sounds like a bust to me. I don't think anybody drafts that position and thinks that's all they are getting.

 

[Folster]

With the Suns so intent on hanging onto Nash until he retires, I wonder if it would have been wise to trade Stoudemire and filler to the Sixers for Iguodala and Brand back when they were being shopped (prior to Collins coming aboard).

A line-up of Nash, Iguodala, Hill, Brand, and Gortat while not a championship contender would be formidable in the West and allow Nash and Hill to play out there years on a good team. I know that the above scenario is assuming we still somehow land Gortat for JRich.

 

[slinslin]

What is your definition then? He was the 5th overall selection and gives you role player minutes with 7.3 PPG and 2.7 rebounds.

Sounds like a bust to me. I don't think anybody drafts that position and thinks that's all they are getting.

You are so frigging ignorant like always again.

Where do you get your stats from? Out of your ass?

Jeff Green averages for his career 13ppg and 5rpg in 30mpg.

In his first four seasons for OKC he averaged

10 and 5 as a rookie
16 and 7
15 and 6
15 and 6

with around 1-2 assists a steal and a block.

You do not seem to know what a bust is. Jeff Green is not an allstar but a very good NBA player anyway.

 

[slinslin]

With the Suns so intent on hanging onto Nash until he retires, I wonder if it would have been wise to trade Stoudemire and filler to the Sixers for Iguodala and Brand back when they were being shopped (prior to Collins coming aboard).

A line-up of Nash, Iguodala, Hill, Brand, and Gortat while not a championship contender would be formidable in the West and allow Nash and Hill to play out there years on a good team. I know that the above scenario is assuming we still somehow land Gortat for JRich.

Nobody on that team can shoot, I don't know how you think that team would be formidable in the West the spacing would be horrific.

 

[Covert Rain]

You are so frigging ignorant like always again.

Where do you get your stats from? Out of your ass?

Jeff Green averages for his career 13ppg and 5rpg in 30mpg.

In his first four seasons for OKC he averaged

10 and 5 as a rookie
16 and 7
15 and 6
15 and 6

with around 1-2 assists a steal and a block.

You do not seem to know what a bust is. Jeff Green is not an allstar but a very good NBA player anyway.

My bad......I was looking at his Playoff stats for 2011 not his average this year. So, unlike your ridiculous crap you post (Gortat gets 80% of his points off of pick and rolls from Nash)...the stats I posted actually exist. Your copout is always either nobody understands advanced stats but you, you pull some obscure stat or you make crap up.

Talk about ignorance. I guess it's bliss for you.

Based on his season average stats I would agree that Green is not a bust but he is not a great player. Unlike you I can admit when I am wrong.....even if it hurts to admit it to someone like you who to this day still can't admit to the fact that Gortat is better then Lopez.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

With the Suns so intent on hanging onto Nash until he retires, I wonder if it would have been wise to trade Stoudemire and filler to the Sixers for Iguodala and Brand back when they were being shopped (prior to Collins coming aboard).

A line-up of Nash, Iguodala, Hill, Brand, and Gortat while not a championship contender would be formidable in the West and allow Nash and Hill to play out there years on a good team. I know that the above scenario is assuming we still somehow land Gortat for JRich.

Or better yet, if that was the plan, why not just extend Stat? We may not have gotten to the WCF again, but would at least be an interesting team and compete. We'd at least have had a couple more interesting years as opposed to the dreck we're currently subjected to.

 

[BC867]

Or better yet, if that was the plan, why not just extend Stat? We may not have gotten to the WCF again, but would at least be an interesting team and compete.

A Power Forward playing Center with eye and leg problems. Even as a Power Forward, he was an inferior defender and rebounder.

Deteriorating every year, falling in love with the outside jump shot. Seemingly caring more about his recognition than attempting to succeed in all aspects of his game.

I just don't see that as a formula for success.

 

[elindholm]

Unfortunately, Nash's presence on the roster has a huge impact on both our draft prospects and our personnel both currently and in the near future.

I think we disagree on whether his impact is "huge." Nash's presence on the roster is probably costing the Suns 4 or 5 positions in the lottery, by my estimation. (That would be over a full season.)

With him, we're in purgatory, with no long term benefit and no decent young players developing.

I disagree that Nash's presence is interfering with the development of young players.

Further, in terms of dictating things, Nash insists on running his offense, undoubtedly encouraged the re-signing of Hill, and will unquestionably push for the acquistion of free agent signings to win in the short term

I question what your authority is to make these "undoubtable" claims. I haven't read a single report of Nash interfering with the front office's business. That's not to say that it isn't happening, but I don't see how you can assert that it definitely is.

But he said if the Suns do not want to pay his worth, they would be doing so "at their own peril."

As others have pointed out, this doesn't sound like Nash at all. I suspect that he was joking and the reporter didn't pick up on it, or someone put words in his mouth, or something.

So not only are we going to be required to pay at least market value for a 38 year old on a gutted team

It's strange to me that you attribute all of this power to Nash. What I think is more likely is that the Suns will keep him around if the price is right, and otherwise they'll say thanks for the memories, go chase your ring. Remember, all of the front office talk leading up to Stoudemire's summer of free agency made it sound like the Suns were do what they needed to in order to keep him. It's all posturing.

All so Steve can be "comfortable", as alluded to in another Coro article.

Since we know that Coro doesn't have much in the way of hard information, I'd be more inclined to read his speculative opinion essays for what they are.

"A Nash trade request would have to be because he was miserable. He despises the losing but he has a close friend, Hill, and top-notch athletic trainers who are as good for his body as they are his spirit...."

So which is it? That Nash will demand that the Suns pay him more than anyone else would this summer, or that he places too much value on "comfort"? It can't be both.

"We have seen how Nash looks trying to throw post-up passes to Shaquille O'Neal."

I guess we've seen different things. The Suns' offense with Nash/O'Neal/Stoudemire was more efficient than even the peak SSOL years. I believe Hollinger was the one who crunched those stats.

Nash is undoubtedly one of my favorite Suns ever, but he's holding the team hostage until he decides he's had enough.

That's assuming that the Suns give him another big contract this summer. I wouldn't count those chickens just yet.

I just can't imagine the prospect of 9-12 talent in the West

The Suns are currently 13th in the Western Conference standings, ahead of only Sacramento and New Orleans. Yes, Nash is propping them up, but not a whole lot.

I really don't see it as an either or proposition, although I have no faith the FO won't turn it into that.

But there are no premium FAs available this summer, unless you count Howard and Williams, neither of whom has a snowball's chance in hell of coming to Phoenix. So the options are, overpay the next Villanueva, try to get Nash to re-sign for something reasonable, or sit on the money until ... when?

The alternative would be to sign some players with potential or injury issues to shorter term deals until the right deal comes along, or we draft (and keep!) some young talent.

How is that an either/or? I'll be amazed if the Suns don't keep their pick this summer.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

I disagree that Nash's presence is interfering with the development of young players.

Clearly, other than Morris, we don't have any. I meant his continued presence on the team.

I question what your authority is to make these "undoubtable" claims. I haven't read a single report of Nash interfering with the front office's business. That's not to say that it isn't happening, but I don't see how you can assert that it definitely is.

While "undoubtable" may have been a poor choice of words, once Steve hits free agency, I doubt he would return to Phoenix unless he had a say in the process. Further, Matt also alluded to this, and he does have contacts in the media, and based on what Babby expressed in his discussion with season ticket holders, the plan appears to be re-sign Nash and try to ride that train to the promised land.

As others have pointed out, this doesn't sound like Nash at all. I suspect that he was joking and the reporter didn't pick up on it, or someone put words in his mouth, or something.

I don't know how the quote could have been misconstrued, and it would be an odd joke. I'm taking his words at face value for the time being.

Since we know that Coro doesn't have much in the way of hard information, I'd be more inclined to read his speculative opinion essays for what they are.

Having read Coro for years, his information has been pretty accurate. He's obviously not telling everything all the time, but as far as I can remember, he's rarely too far off.

So which is it? That Nash will demand that the Suns pay him more than anyone else would this summer, or that he places too much value on "comfort"? It can't be both.

Or he'll get market value from the Suns and stay where he's comfortable.

I guess we've seen different things. The Suns' offense with Nash/O'Neal/Stoudemire was more efficient than even the peak SSOL years. I believe Hollinger was the one who crunched those stats.

Coro's words, not mine. His point being that Nash wasn't happy when he didn't run the offense.

That's assuming that the Suns give him another big contract this summer. I wouldn't count those chickens just yet.

While I'm hopeful you're right, every indication appears to the contrary.

The Suns are currently 13th in the Western Conference standings, ahead of only Sacramento and New Orleans. Yes, Nash is propping them up, but not a whole lot.

True, but enough to cost us a top 5 pick, where the vast majority of franchise players are.

But there are no premium FAs available this summer, unless you count Howard and Williams, neither of whom has a snowball's chance in hell of coming to Phoenix. So the options are, overpay the next Villanueva, try to get Nash to re-sign for something reasonable, or sit on the money until ... when?

Or sign a couple young guys with potential to 2-3 year deals, get some high draft picks, and only spend cap space when absolutely necessary on guys that actually deserve it. (Or until you get a decent draft pick to build around)

How is that an either/or? I'll be amazed if the Suns don't keep their pick this summer.

A joke about their predilection for selling off picks.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

A Power Forward playing Center with eye and leg problems. Even as a Power Forward, he was an inferior defender and rebounder.

Deteriorating every year, falling in love with the outside jump shot. Seemingly caring more about his recognition than attempting to succeed in all aspects of his game.

I just don't see that as a formula for success.

It was risky, but put him next to Gortat, find a decent 2, and we're an interesting team for at least a couple of years. We were a pretty damn good team 2 years ago with him. Sure as hell better than our current situation.

 

[BC867]

We were a pretty damn good team 2 years ago with him. Sure as hell better than our current situation.

You posted a great reason for not keeping him. If Amar'e were part of our current situation, he wouldn't be the player he was two years ago.

It has been written back East that he is already in his declining years. Especially after deciding to bulk up and put extra weight on his knees.

 

[Phrazbit]

Our success without Amare has been fantastic and our future is extremely bright. Is that what you are saying?

What a great move to lose an All Star for NOTHING, except for worse contracts and lesser players that cannot even make the playoffs. We win less and draw far fewer fans, just fantastic.

Using Kerr to confirm any good player moves is ludicrous. He quite possibly is the worst GM ever. Nice guy, very good commentator, horrible GM.

What good player decisions did he make, via trade or the draft?

He virtually single handidly broke up a consistent playoff contender and turned it into a lottery team, while acquiring virtually no future assets to work with.

On his watch we lost Marion, Shaq, KT, TT, Boris, Raja, LB, D'Antoni and now we can add Amare. I thought Amare all along was Sarver's choice. Oh yeah, he did draft Robin Lopez, DJ Strawberry, Alando Tucker, Earll Clark and Goran Dragic. Only Robin remains. If only Coach D would have played those guys more, maybe they would still be in the league. Whoops Clark is still in the league while getting 10 minutes and 2 points a night for Orlando. The new GM who will be responsible for our immediate future traded Dragic who we could really use at this point.

Will we make the playoffs prior to Amare's contract ending in New York?

If we do not, how can the decision not to sign him be a good one?

The decision not to resign Amare could turn out to be a very good one but at this point it just isn't.

We have not been better and do not have a better future, at this point, without him.

We have very few draft picks and are not a preferred destination for free agents. How exactly are we better off, without Amare. You and others keep trying to justify your belief that we are, with nothing to back it up, except the assumption that Amare will not play out his contract due to injury. You could be right, but at this point it just is not.

If you asked Nash, Hill and Gentry if they would like to have Amare around I expect they would say, hell yes.

Those are guys I would listen to. They actaully have to compete on a nightly basis.

Did I say that Kerr was Mr Wizard and a brilliant GM? Please, stop putting words into my mouth when responding to my posts, you read about 10 different things into my post that I said NOTHING about.

Someone else stated that they thought Kerr left because he wanted to keep Amare, I refuted that pointing out Kerr agreed with letting Amare walk. That is all I had to say about Kerr.

And as for if letting Amare walk was a good move... it was. The guy is a shadow of an "all-star". You can make the debate that they should have traded him a few seasons earlier, but as far as not handing him 100 million goes. It was the right move, how you can think up to this point it wasnt is beyond me. Sure, we probably get to be a one and done team in the playoffs last year, then this season we are stuck with a washed up Amare and owe him 80 million dollars in what is probably the most untradeable contract in the NBA.

And even if we dont make the playoffs during Amare's tenure in New York, it doesnt mean we should have kept him, because I doubt Amare taking up 40% of the cap figure while putting up 17 and 7 on 43% shooting while being the worst defender in the league would have been pushing us over the top.

And I fully expect his numbers to further decline. His talent has fallen off a cliff, and while I expected that to happen, I thought he would get injured first. He gone downhill this quick while staying relatively healthy. I cant imagine how bad he will look once he actually gets hurt.

 

[JustWinBaby]

Did I say that Kerr was Mr Wizard and a brilliant GM? Please, stop putting words into my mouth when responding to my posts, you read about 10 different things into my post that I said NOTHING about.

Someone else stated that they thought Kerr left because he wanted to keep Amare, I refuted that pointing out Kerr agreed with letting Amare walk. That is all I had to say about Kerr.

And as for if letting Amare walk was a good move... it was. The guy is a shadow of an "all-star". You can make the debate that they should have traded him a few seasons earlier, but as far as not handing him 100 million goes. It was the right move, how you can think up to this point it wasnt is beyond me. Sure, we probably get to be a one and done team in the playoffs last year, then this season we are stuck with a washed up Amare and owe him 80 million dollars in what is probably the most untradeable contract in the NBA.

And even if we dont make the playoffs during Amare's tenure in New York, it doesnt mean we should have kept him, because I doubt Amare taking up 40% of the cap figure while putting up 17 and 7 on 43% shooting while being the worst defender in the league would have been pushing us over the top.

And I fully expect his numbers to further decline. His talent has fallen off a cliff, and while I expected that to happen, I thought he would get injured first. He gone downhill this quick while staying relatively healthy. I cant imagine how bad he will look once he actually gets hurt.

It seemed to me that you used Kerr to confrim your belief that not signing Amare was a good move. I guess you didn't. I just pointed out that Kerr was a horrible GM, which he was.

I suggested that Nash would love to have him, I think I am right. Nash is the leader of this franchise and the owner took his #1 option away, while not replacing it. Steve knows more about winning basketball games than Sarver or Kerr.

Sarver has to be losing a butt load of money at the box office. That is not why he owns the Suns. If it continues and Amare stays healthy, at some point that 100 Mil would have been a bargain.

Everyone keeps suggesting Amare's doom and gloom due to 17 and 7, 43% shooting. You suggest it is the beginning of the end. I just don't see it that way. Lot's of player changes and no point guard until recently. His defense actually seems better this year. There is concern but to suggest the beginning of the end is just not fair at this point.

If you have even paid attention, the Knicks have been a mess since Melo arrived. There is hope with Lin but I am not convinced that Amare and Melo can coexist. Melo will not allow it. Amare was 4 for 7 last night, Melo 7 for 20. I have never seen a player so full of himself as Carmelo Anthony. If they somehow work it out, D' Antoni has to be COY.

If Amare was still with the Suns, I expect he would still be producing just as he was prior to leaving, assuming he didn't put on the XTRA 20 Lbs and still was working with the Suns training staff. I know you will dispute that, so be it.

AT THIS POINT, as I suggested, the Suns would be far better off if they had kept Amare. It is not even close. What is not to understand.

We would have more wins and more revenue. That is a fact whether you want to admit it or not.

The future, past this season, is the only question. Sarvers decision could turn out to be a good one. I have said that many times. I understand why Sarver did not guarantee all the years of his contract.

If Amare breaks down and the Suns regroup with new talent to their winning ways of the past, Sarver made the right move.

If Amare does not breakdown and the Suns continue in the lottery, Sarver made the wrong decision.

I know you and others are desparate to have Amare fail. He hasn't at this point. The Knicks are winning and they are a hit at the box office. Many feel they could be a threat in the playoffs and could beat anyone. Melo will have to wake up for that to happen.

The Suns certainly have failed. On the court and at the Box office.

Will that continue for the forseeable future, for both franchises?

 

[BC867]

AT THIS POINT, as I suggested, the Suns would be far better off if they had kept Amare. It is not even close. What is not to understand.

Kept him at Center or played him at PF alongside a real Center?

If they stubbornly kept Amar'e at Center, do you really think the team would be better off than we are now with Gortat? Especially with their tendency to play small or soft Power Forwards alongside Amar'e.

If they moved him back to PF alongside Gortat and benched Frye, I think we would be somewhat better than we are now. But that would diminish each season. 'Still not a plan.

 

[Phrazbit]

It seemed to me that you used Kerr to confrim your belief that not signing Amare was a good move. I guess you didn't. I just pointed out that Kerr was a horrible GM, which he was.

I suggested that Nash would love to have him, I think I am right. Nash is the leader of this franchise and the owner took his #1 option away, while not replacing it. Steve knows more about winning basketball games than Sarver or Kerr.

Sarver has to be losing a butt load of money at the box office. That is not why he owns the Suns. If it continues and Amare stays healthy, at some point that 100 Mil would have been a bargain.

Everyone keeps suggesting Amare's doom and gloom due to 17 and 7, 43% shooting. You suggest it is the beginning of the end. I just don't see it that way. Lot's of player changes and no point guard until recently. His defense actually seems better this year. There is concern but to suggest the beginning of the end is just not fair at this point.

If you have even paid attention, the Knicks have been a mess since Melo arrived. There is hope with Lin but I am not convinced that Amare and Melo can coexist. Melo will not allow it. Amare was 4 for 7 last night, Melo 7 for 20. I have never seen a player so full of himself as Carmelo Anthony. If they somehow work it out, D' Antoni has to be COY.

If Amare was still with the Suns, I expect he would still be producing just as he was prior to leaving, assuming he didn't put on the XTRA 20 Lbs and still was working with the Suns training staff. I know you will dispute that, so be it.

AT THIS POINT, as I suggested, the Suns would be far better off if they had kept Amare. It is not even close. What is not to understand.

We would have more wins and more revenue. That is a fact whether you want to admit it or not.

The future, past this season, is the only question. Sarvers decision could turn out to be a good one. I have said that many times. I understand why Sarver did not guarantee all the years of his contract.

If Amare breaks down and the Suns regroup with new talent to their winning ways of the past, Sarver made the right move.

If Amare does not breakdown and the Suns continue in the lottery, Sarver made the wrong decision.

I know you and others are desparate to have Amare fail. He hasn't at this point. The Knicks are winning and they are a hit at the box office. Many feel they could be a threat in the playoffs and could beat anyone. Melo will have to wake up for that to happen.

The Suns certainly have failed. On the court and at the Box office.

Will that continue for the forseeable future, for both franchises?

Where we differ is, in my opinion, Amare already HAS broken down. And I dont think the Suns would be all that different this year with him. They'd be a few games better, but I doubt they would be a playoff team. And you have to be the only person who has suggested his defense is better this year. He has been an abomination on defense. Knick fans have been clamoring for Jefferies to play more because Amare has been so bad. His baseline and metric defensive stats are horrendous. He seems to be putting less effort in it this season than ever and I think its because he has less energy to give.

Amare's shooting percentages and other statistics are more the result of him having lost his quickness than any roster factors for the Knicks. He can no longer beat guys off the dribble from the elbow, and that was his go to move in the past, now it just results in either a turnover or an ugly contested shot.

As I said before, the biggest sign that he has lost a step is that he is getting blocked at a higher rate than any other player in the NBA, and when you consider that he has become a jump shooter for him to STILL be getting blocked that often is alarming.

He is broken down already. And the fans would not be filling the seats to see a broken down player.

 

[Mainstreet]

I'm going to add my post from another thread here because I think it is pertinent to note how the Suns built a team that was a contender with four stars using players that were drafted 9-15.... and for those who believe tanking is the only way to rebuild.

originally posted by Mainstreet

The Suns put themselves in position to be a contender most recently by drafting Steve Nash with the 15th in the 1996 draft (without getting into all the nuts and bolts like Steve Nash being traded to Dallas) and by drafting Amare Stoudemire 9th in the 2002 NBA Draft (via receiving this pick from Orlando by taking on Bo Outlaw's contract). Additionally Shawn Marion was selected with the 9th pick in the 1999 draft and Joe Johnson was acquired by trade from the Celtics for Rodney Rogers and Tony Delk. Joe Johnson was selected with the 10th pick by the Celtics in the 2001 draft.

So the Suns were able to put turn themselves into a legitimate contender with literally four stars: Nash, Stoudemire, Marion and Johnson by drafting smartly with two #9 picks, a #15 pick and a trade (for a #10 pick). This should have been more than enough to win a championship if these players could have been kept together. IMO, the crack in the foundation occurred when the Suns did not extend Joe Johnson.

As I see it, the most key ingredient to building a contender is good ownership and a smart GM plus some skill in the draft. I will say picking number #9 appears lucky for the Suns. However, a star studded team can be built by picking 9-15 in the NBA Draft so the tanking theory need not apply.

 

[Phrazbit]

I'm going to add my post from another thread here because I think it is pertinent to note how the Suns built a team that was a contender with four stars using players that were drafted 9-15.... and for those who believe tanking is the only way to rebuild.

I agree, a team can rebuild in the middle of the draft if they expertly pick. But being in the middle of the pack... or the lower middle which is where the Suns are, does nothing to help the rebuilding effort. As nice as it is to point out how the Suns built the 2004-2010 teams using middle-early picks, it can just as easily be pointed out that virtually every team that is currently contending built their core talent around a top 5 pick, or several of them.

 

[JustWinBaby]

Where we differ is, in my opinion, Amare already HAS broken down. And I dont think the Suns would be all that different this year with him. They'd be a few games better, but I doubt they would be a playoff team. And you have to be the only person who has suggested his defense is better this year. He has been an abomination on defense. Knick fans have been clamoring for Jefferies to play more because Amare has been so bad. His baseline and metric defensive stats are horrendous. He seems to be putting less effort in it this season than ever and I think its because he has less energy to give.

Amare's shooting percentages and other statistics are more the result of him having lost his quickness than any roster factors for the Knicks. He can no longer beat guys off the dribble from the elbow, and that was his go to move in the past, now it just results in either a turnover or an ugly contested shot.

As I said before, the biggest sign that he has lost a step is that he is getting blocked at a higher rate than any other player in the NBA, and when you consider that he has become a jump shooter for him to STILL be getting blocked that often is alarming.

He is broken down already. And the fans would not be filling the seats to see a broken down player.

Well we will just have to disagree and let history play out.

I just don't think he is broken down like you and MANY others believe. I expect I am in the minority, undoutedly an understatement, so be it.

I think the 20 extra pounds and where he is getting the ball has a lot to do with what has gone on so far.

His biggest probelm IMO, first and foremost is Melo. I didn't like him in Denver and hate him in New York. I could dislike him in Denver because I was happy to see him lose. Unfortunately he is now on a team that is fun to watch and he appears to be the guy screwing up a potentially good thing.

Melo has even infected Lin upon his return to the lineup. The Knicks have lost more than they have won since he has arrived and EVERYONE has sacrificed part of their game for him. Melo needs to look in a mirror. To repeat, if the Knicks succeed with Melo on that team, Coach D should be COY.

 

[slinslin]

I agree, a team can rebuild in the middle of the draft if they expertly pick. But being in the middle of the pack... or the lower middle which is where the Suns are, does nothing to help the rebuilding effort. As nice as it is to point out how the Suns built the 2004-2010 teams using middle-early picks, it can just as easily be pointed out that virtually every team that is currently contending built their core talent around a top 5 pick, or several of them.

The only reason it even worked is because Steve Nash is one of the 5 best players ever drafted outside of the top 6.

That is not likely to happen ever again.

The other 5 are Bird at 6, Julius Erving, Karl Malone, Kobe Bryant and Dirk Nowitzki.

Kobe and Dirk would have never dropped outside of the top 5 nowadays. Back in those years drafting foreigners or highschoolers that high was simply not common practice and the scouting has improved leaps and bounds since Malone and Erving were drafted between #10-15

 

[Phrazbit]

The only reason it even worked is because Steve Nash is one of the 5 best players ever drafted outside of the top 6.

That is not likely to happen ever again.

The other 5 are Bird at 6, Julius Erving, Karl Malone, Kobe Bryant and Dirk Nowitzki.

Kobe and Dirk would have never dropped outside of the top 5 nowadays. Back in those years drafting foreigners or highschoolers that high was simply not common practice and the scouting has improved leaps and bounds since Malone and Erving were drafted between #10-15

I agree, its not likely.

Philly is probably as close as you can find to a team that built through free agency and with middling picks. They do have Turner but his contributions are at replacement level. And while they are having a great regular season, it remains to be seen how well they will do in the playoffs. I dont think they will have the scoring to go toe to toe with the superstar laden teams in the clutch.

 

[Phrazbit]

Well we will just have to disagree and let history play out.

I just don't think he is broken down like you and MANY others believe. I expect I am in the minority, undoutedly an understatement, so be it.

I think the 20 extra pounds and where he is getting the ball has a lot to do with what has gone on so far.

His biggest probelm IMO, first and foremost is Melo. I didn't like him in Denver and hate him in New York. I could dislike him in Denver because I was happy to see him lose. Unfortunately he is now on a team that is fun to watch and he appears to be the guy screwing up a potentially good thing.

Melo has even infected Lin upon his return to the lineup. The Knicks have lost more than they have won since he has arrived and EVERYONE has sacrificed part of their game for him. Melo needs to look in a mirror. To repeat, if the Knicks succeed with Melo on that team, Coach D should be COY.

I agree, the Melo trade was a disaster for the Knicks their former team fit together far better than their current roster. And if Amare's numbers seemed to be suffering because of a lack of touches, and touches in the right spots, I would agree.

But, as I said, Amare is getting the ball frequently in the same spots he used to, but the explosiveness isnt there. Sure, the 20 pounds might have some to do with it but its hard to imagine it would be so detrimental that it would cripple him to such an extent. And I think he probably added the weight because he knows his quickness was fading and thought he could use extra muscle to push through.

 

[AzStevenCal]

The only reason it even worked is because Steve Nash is one of the 5 best players ever drafted outside of the top 6.

That is not likely to happen ever again.

The other 5 are Bird at 6, Julius Erving, Karl Malone, Kobe Bryant and Dirk Nowitzki.

Kobe and Dirk would have never dropped outside of the top 5 nowadays. Back in those years drafting foreigners or highschoolers that high was simply not common practice and the scouting has improved leaps and bounds since Malone and Erving were drafted between #10-15

I agree with your point on the changes in the draft process and you can take Bird out of that group also. Nowadays, when you mention the Bird rule everyone just assumes you're talking about the Bird exception but it really refers to (or at least used to refer to) the loophole that allowed the Celtics to draft Larry as a Junior eligible. Had he been viewed as draft eligible by every team he most likely would have been drafted number one by the Trailblazers.

Steve

 

[Mainstreet]

As mentioned in another thread, the Trail Blazers waived Armon Johnson a quick and athletic PG prospect drafted #44 in the 2010 draft to make room for Joel Przybilla. The Suns need to look at him this season as a possible backup PG (even as a third PG) going into the future. He has not shown much in limited minutes but neither did Lin. Johnson is listed at 6'3."

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/219232/Blazers_Waive_Armon_Johnson

http://www.nbadraft.net/players/armon-johnson

 

[Errntknght]

Not saying we shouldn't consider Armon Johnson but he's got a long way to go to be much of a PG. In his one season (279 minutes) he had an encouraging assist rate at 6.4/40min but his TO rate was bad at 5.4/40min. He'd have to cut his TO's in half just to have an average(among PGs) Ast/TO ratio. Of course, Jeremy Lin's ast/to is well below average on the year so it doesn't mean the world.

If he can defend the position well, it would be worth trying to develop his offense, thats for sure.

 

[FArting]

What good player decisions did he make, via trade or the draft?

His draft picks of Robin Lopez and Goran Dragic have started to shine and work out well this season, and Kerr has done a good job in the acquisitions of veterans such as Hill, Channing Frye, and Louis Amundson —especially considering none of those guys received a big contract, which has helped Phoenix's financial situation.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...art-suns-gm-kerr-seems-on-track-for-extension