A recent history of Suns franchise players

[Griffin]

There's been some discussion about franchise players in another thread. If you define a franchise player as a key player, likely elite or all-star level, that a team plans to build around and is for all practical purposes deemed untradeable, then it is clear the Suns no longer have a franchise player.

I thought it would be interesting to look at the last 20 years or so to see which Suns players would or should be considered franchise players, how often they were acquired and under what circumstances.

Here's my list, going back to players who were on roster in 1992:

• Kevin Johnson (1988, trade)
• Charles Barkley (1992, trade)
• Jason Kidd (1996, trade)
• Shawn Marion (1999, draft)
• Joe Johnson (2002, trade)
• Amare Stoudemire (2002, draft)
• Steve Nash (2004, free agent)

This is a pretty easy list to compile, obviously, with the only questionable name being JJ, imo. But I think he belongs there.

The Suns were picking up a future franchise player every 3-4 years via trades until they managed to draft Amare. Two years later they put together a team that featured four players that could have all warranted the franchise tag in Marion, JJ, Amare and Nash. But after signing Nash in 2004, the Suns list of franchise player acquisitions ends. That was 8 years ago.

Over the course of 20 years, there were also other notable players the Suns acquired where there was reasonable expectation they might become franchise players, but for injuries or other reasons it did not work out.

• Antonio McDyess (1997, trade)
• Tom Gugliotta (1999, free agent)
• Anfernee Hardaway (1999, sign-and-trade)
• Stephon Marbury (2001, trade)

Did I forget anyone? The Suns didn't even have one acquisition in the last 8 years that could have yielded a future franchise player unless you consider J-Rich a candidate. And no, Shaq doesn't count. The prior 8 years they acquired 9 such players (Kidd, McDyess, Marion, Googs, Penny, Marbury, JJ, Amare, Nash). Yes, they tried to get Gordon this summer and he would have had to be put on the potential franchise player list, but they didn't get him. And most of the franchise players this team has had in the past 20 years were acquired via trades, not free agency. It is more difficult to go the free agency route, because many franchise players never become free agents, unless restricted.

 

[elindholm]

If the likes of Marion and Johnson are included, then you have to include Chambers. He was at a higher level than either of them.

 

[Cheesebeef]

If the likes of Marion and Johnson are included, then you have to include Chambers. He was at a higher level than either of them.

Agreed. I'd out chambers in that list and take off marion and Jj

 

[SunsTzu]

I guess my definition of franchise player is different. To me a franchise player is top 5 in the NBA level of player. All-Star level players you try to build around I consider core players. Maybe it's just me, but when I think of a franchise player I think mega-star.

 

[JustWinBaby]

There's been some discussion about franchise players in another thread. If you define a franchise player as a key player, likely elite or all-star level, that a team plans to build around and is for all practical purposes deemed untradeable, then it is clear the Suns no longer have a franchise player.

I thought it would be interesting to look at the last 20 years or so to see which Suns players would or should be considered franchise players, how often they were acquired and under what circumstances.

Here's my list, going back to players who were on roster in 1992:

• Kevin Johnson (1988, trade)
• Charles Barkley (1992, trade)
• Jason Kidd (1996, trade)
• Shawn Marion (1999, draft)
• Joe Johnson (2002, trade)
• Amare Stoudemire (2002, draft)
• Steve Nash (2004, free agent)

This is a pretty easy list to compile, obviously, with the only questionable name being JJ, imo. But I think he belongs there.

The Suns were picking up a future franchise player every 3-4 years via trades until they managed to draft Amare. Two years later they put together a team that featured four players that could have all warranted the franchise tag in Marion, JJ, Amare and Nash. But after signing Nash in 2004, the Suns list of franchise player acquisitions ends. That was 8 years ago.

Over the course of 20 years, there were also other notable players the Suns acquired where there was reasonable expectation they might become franchise players, but for injuries or other reasons it did not work out.

• Antonio McDyess (1997, trade)
• Tom Gugliotta (1999, free agent)
• Anfernee Hardaway (1999, sign-and-trade)
• Stephon Marbury (2001, trade)

Did I forget anyone? The Suns didn't even have one acquisition in the last 8 years that could have yielded a future franchise player unless you consider J-Rich a candidate. And no, Shaq doesn't count. The prior 8 years they acquired 9 such players (Kidd, McDyess, Marion, Googs, Penny, Marbury, JJ, Amare, Nash). Yes, they tried to get Gordon this summer and he would have had to be put on the potential franchise player list, but they didn't get him. And most of the franchise players this team has had in the past 20 years were acquired via trades, not free agency. It is more difficult to go the free agency route, because many franchise players never become free agents, unless restricted.

That details exactly why this franchise has never won a Championship. While all of these players were very good none of them was a great player. At least great enough to lead us to a Championship. I suppose Barkley is the best. But he didn't get the job done. Teams win Championships with guys they hand picked in the first five picks of their draft year. That still is not a guarantee but it is necessary for you to win a title. We have had top 5 draft picks but none of them turned out to be great players. Kidd was a Top 5 along with McDyess, Hardaway and Marbury but they were damaged good by the time they got to Phoenix. Only one of those players has won a Championship, Jason Kidd. That was mainly due to Dirk's brilliance last year. The reason we got these top 5 picks was that they either wanted out of their previous team or their team wanted them out of town. None of them actually hand picked the Suns as their team of choice.

Talent wins Championhips in this league. The Phoenix Suns have had a lot of very good players just not any really great players. To win a ring you just have to have at least one really geat player.

 

[Griffin]

That details exactly why this franchise has never won a Championship. While all of these players were very good none of them was a great player. At least great enough to lead us to a Championship.

There are hall-of-famers on that list, so I would argue the Suns definitely had some great players in the last 20 years. Lack of talent is not why they didn't win a title. For most teams, championships come few and far between and often require luck. The best a team can do is acquire players that will put them in position to win a title. I think most if not all of the players on that list fit that description. You can't say that just because the Suns didn't win a title, then none of the players they had were good enough to win one.

Teams win Championships with guys they hand picked in the first five picks of their draft year.

I don't know what you mean by that. If you mean teams win championships with the players they drafted in top 5 then that's absolutely not true. As I pointed out in another thread, Tim Duncan and Dwayne Wade are the only top 5 picks to win a title with the team that drafted them since MJ's last title. Yes, the best players in the league are generally high draft picks, but when they win titles, it is usually for teams that acquired them via trade or free agency.

We have had top 5 draft picks but none of them turned out to be great players. Kidd was a Top 5 along with McDyess, Hardaway and Marbury but they were damaged good by the time they got to Phoenix.

Kidd was a great player when he was here. Multiple all-star, all-NBA, and a shoe-in hall-of-famer in his prime. The Suns made some great trades picking up Kidd and McDyess when they were still young and destined for stardom. It doesn't always work out like with McDyess who bolted and Hardaway due to injuries, but all these players had potential to become cornerstones of this franchise.

None of them actually hand picked the Suns as their team of choice.

That's because the Suns acquired most of them via trades. Part of reason for that is that they rarely had enough cap room to sign major free agents in those years and didn't have high draft picks to draft them. With the exception of teams like Lakers and Miami, most franchise players don't pick the team they represent.

 

[Griffin]

If the likes of Marion and Johnson are included, then you have to include Chambers. He was at a higher level than either of them.

Yes, he should be on there. For whatever reason I was thinking back to the 1993/94 season when he was already gone. But I wrote 1992, so he should make the list.

 

[BC867]

It's been a long time since Connie Hawkins.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Danny Manning was one that didn't work out.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

I guess my definition of franchise player is different. To me a franchise player is top 5 in the NBA level of player. All-Star level players you try to build around I consider core players. Maybe it's just me, but when I think of a franchise player I think mega-star.

Franchise players by definition are the players that define the franchise.

For the Suns, it is easily anyone on the Ring of Honor.

From the last 20 years that list is:

Barkley
KJ
Marjele


Likely additions in the future:

Nash
Marion
Stoudemire

That is it. I will be shocked if Stoudemire makes it. His body of work doesn't hold up.

These are the guys that own the Suns record books.

 

[Chaplin]

Franchise players by definition are the players that define the franchise.

For the Suns, it is easily anyone on the Ring of Honor.

From the last 20 years that list is:

Barkley
KJ
Marjele


Likely additions in the future:

Nash
Marion
Stoudemire

That is it. I will be shocked if Stoudemire makes it. His body of work doesn't hold up.

These are the guys that own the Suns record books.

I liked Shawn Marion a lot, but how does he qualify as a franchise player? At best, he is nothing more than a Scottie Pippen supporting player.

 

[NashDishesDimes]

Interesting thread, good write up. Thanks

 

[Cheesebeef]

I liked Shawn Marion a lot, but how does he qualify as a franchise player? At best, he is nothing more than a Scottie Pippen supporting player.

Gotta agree that Marion isn't really close. And even at his best, he's nowhere near a Scottie Pippen like supporting player. Pippen's an all time great and probably the best number 2 of his era. Marion could never be considered a legit number 2 on a title contender IMO.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

I liked Shawn Marion a lot, but how does he qualify as a franchise player? At best, he is nothing more than a Scottie Pippen supporting player.

Suns All Time Regular Season:

Minutes Played
Alvan Adams - 27,203
Shawn Marion - 24,949
Dick Van Arsdale - 24,262
Kevin Johnson - 24,188
Walter Davis - 23,143


Field Goals Made
Walter Davis - 6,497
Alvan Adams - 5,709
Shawn Marion - 4,879
Kevin Johnson - 4,369
Dick Van Arsdale - 4,319


Field Goals Attempted
Walter Davis - 12,497
Alvan Adams - 11,563
Shawn Marion - 10,136
Kevin Johnson - 8,849
Dick Van Arsdale - 9,185


3-Point Field Goals Made
Dan Majerle - 800
Steve Nash - 683
Shawn Marion - 652
Raja Bell - 578
Leandro Barbosa - 575


3-Point Field Goals Attempted
Dan Majerle - 2,200
Shawn Marion - 1,905
Steve Nash - 1,543
Leandro Barbosa - 1,405
Raja Bell - 1,381


Rebounds
Alvan Adams - 6,937
Shawn Marion - 6,152
Larry Nance - 3,791
Neal Walk - 3,637
Amar'e Stoudemire - 3,451


Steals
Alvan Adams - 1,289
Shawn Marion - 1,245
Walter Davis - 1,040
Kevin Johnson - 1,022
Paul Westphal - 753

Blocked Shots
Larry Nance - 939
Mark West - 898
Shawn Marion - 894
Alvan Adams - 809
Amar'e Stoudemire - 582


Points Scored
Walter Davis - 15,666
Alvan Adams - 13,907
Kevin Johnson - 12,747
Shawn Marion - 12,134
Dick Van Arsdale - 12,060

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Wow #4 in scoring, #2 in rebounds, #2 in steals, #3 in blocked shots, #2 in minutes played.

My definition, that is a franchise player.

Edit: Scottie Pippen was absolutely a franchise player btw. In the NBA top 50 for pete's sake.

 

[Chaplin]

Wow #4 in scoring, #2 in rebounds, #2 in steals, #3 in blocked shots, #2 in minutes played.

My definition, that is a franchise player.

Edit: Scottie Pippen was absolutely a franchise player btw. In the NBA top 50 for pete's sake.

All that tells me is that he was with the club for a long time.

Definitely a great player, but not someone you build around as a centerpiece. And he never was the centerpiece here. Hell, we never even ran plays for him!

 

[Chris_Sanders]

All that tells me is that he was with the club for a long time.

Definitely a great player, but not someone you build around as a centerpiece. And he never was the centerpiece here. Hell, we never even ran plays for him!

We just have different definitions. My definition, he fits if he ends up on the Ring of Honor as a player. I would say that is 50% likely. Nash is 100%. Amare is like 10%.

I am looking at more the body of work and the impact of the franchise for a franchise player.

 

[Griffin]

I think that there are several different definitions of a "franchise player" floated around here. Personally, I didn't focus on what the player achieved with the club over the years, because that would only allow us to apply the franchise tag retroactively. Instead, my criteria would be something like this:

1. Player who at the time was considered a cornerstone of franchise and expected to continue to be so for years to come (there could be multiple such players on the team at the same time, so does not necessarily have to be the centerpiece)
2. Player who was at the time deemed virtually untradeable and would only be let go for a top-5 NBA superstar
3. Player the team had every intention of keeping for duration of his career, even at maximum salary
4. Player who would warrant maximum salary in the open market
5. Player who has already been with the team for more than one season and the above conditions still held (this differentiates franchise players from potential franchise players and excludes players like McDyess who left after one year or players like Hardaway who quickly succumbed to injuries)

I think based on that criteria Marion would be considered one of Suns franchise players. They definitely treated him like one for many years.

Of course, almost every player becomes tradeable after some time when their value to the team decreases or team's performance no longer justifies keeping the player. So it's important to note that these criteria must only apply for a (significant) portion of the player's stay with the club, not for the whole duration.

 

[Phrazbit]

Unless you're only willing to call super-stars franchise guys (in which case the Suns have only had 2 ever: Barkley, Nash) then Marion was a franchise guy.

Just because he was not a go to scorer takes nothing away from his contributions... and he still managed to score a lot. Other than Barkley he is the best rebounder in franchise history, for his tenure he always took the toughest defensive assignment and on a multitude of postions. He would cover Kobe one night and Dirk the next. And IMO, he was far more important to the true SSOL era Suns than Amare was. His season in 2005-06 was insane. And he was indisputably a cornerstone.

I'd be stunned of Marion was not put in the ring of honor eventually. 4 time all-star, a key player for a decade, all over the franchise record books.

 

[Chaplin]

Unless you're only willing to call super-stars franchise guys (in which case the Suns have only had 2 ever: Barkley, Nash) then Marion was a franchise guy.

Just because he was not a go to scorer takes nothing away from his contributions... and he still managed to score a lot. Other than Barkley he is the best rebounder in franchise history, for his tenure he always took the toughest defensive assignment and on a multitude of postions. He would cover Kobe one night and Dirk the next. And IMO, he was far more important to the true SSOL era Suns than Amare was. His season in 2005-06 was insane. And he was indisputably a cornerstone.

I'd be stunned of Marion was not put in the ring of honor eventually. 4 time all-star, a key player for a decade, all over the franchise record books.

Why do you think that because I don't consider Marion a franchise player for the Suns that means I don't think he's good?

I guess it's just an aspect of message boards--there simply are no shades of gray.

To me a franchise player is a primary piece you can build around. That wasn't Shawn IMO.

His accomplishments dictate his inclusion into the Ring of Honor, not whether he was a franchise player or not. Dan Majerle is nowhere near a franchise player and he's in the Ring...

 

[Phrazbit]

Why do you think that because I don't consider Marion a franchise player for the Suns that means I don't think he's good?

I guess it's just an aspect of message boards--there simply are no shades of gray.

To me a franchise player is a primary piece you can build around. That wasn't Shawn IMO.

His accomplishments dictate his inclusion into the Ring of Honor, not whether he was a franchise player or not. Dan Majerle is nowhere near a franchise player and he's in the Ring...

Where did I say you didnt think he was good? You put words in my mouth... then get annoyed that I am being black and white? I mentioned the ring of honor part because someone else brought up his ring odds.

My point was, unless you only count superstars as franchise guys, then I would consider Marion a franchise guy. The Suns certainly built around him. Hell, they ignored the front court and a lack of rebounding issues for years because he was so good on the glass and allowed them to play small. He was a cornerstone of a championship contender, the second best player on those teams, a 20-10 guy, a 4 time all-star. Yeah, I'd say he is a franchise guy.

 

[sunsfan88]

Why do you think that because I don't consider Marion a franchise player for the Suns that means I don't think he's good?

I guess it's just an aspect of message boards--there simply are no shades of gray.

To me a franchise player is a primary piece you can build around. That wasn't Shawn IMO.

His accomplishments dictate his inclusion into the Ring of Honor, not whether he was a franchise player or not. Dan Majerle is nowhere near a franchise player and he's in the Ring...

Off topic but I don't understand your sig...care to explain?

 

[JCSunsfan]

The Suns have not had a lot of franchise players. Some were franchise players for the Suns but just solid starters for other teams (Larry Nance)

KJ, Westy, the Hawk, Barkley, Kidd, Nash, Chambers (26 pts a game one year), maybe Walter Davis, that's probably about it.

Marion has alot of stats, but that's because our list of franchise players were not with the team as long.

Please, do not put Majerle or JJ on that list.

 

[Covert Rain]

Shawn Marion is not a franchise player. The definition of a franchise player is the best player on your team that you can build around. The cornerstone of your franchise. Just because a guy like Marion puts up good numbers doesn't make it so. There are lots of guys in the best of <insert category here> that were not franchise guys.

Marion was not a max contract guy, was not a player you could build around, was not the type of player that was going to get other players to play with him. Shawn Marion is one of my all time favorite Suns players but franchise player he is not.

P.S. Joe Johnson should not be on that list either.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Shawn Marion is not a franchise player. The definition of a franchise player is the best player on your team that you can build around. The cornerstone of your franchise. Just because a guy like Marion puts up good numbers doesn't make it so. There are lots of guys in the best of <insert category here> that were not franchise guys.

Marion was not a max contract guy, was not a player you could build around, was not the type of player that was going to get other players to play with him. Shawn Marion is one of my all time favorite Suns players but franchise player he is not.

P.S. Joe Johnson should not be on that list either.

Pre-microfracture Amare was.