Adding and Building Quality Depth

[Walter Mitchell]

In light of this year's unprecedented number of injuries...and the likelihood that injuries to some players each year are inevitable...the Cardinals need to carefully plan how to improve the quality of their depth this off-season. If the team's second string is getting blown out in pre-season games like it has for several years now, we will know that the Cardinals' depth is still subpar. Hopefully, the second and third quarters of this year's pre-season games will be a lot more enjoyable to watch. Let's look at what the Cardinals need to do at each position:

QUARTERBACK: A free agent QB needs to be added regardless of whether Jake Plummer re-signs or the Cardinals dip into the QB pool early in the draft. The biggest question is: Is Josh McCown the QB of the future? As Ed B. stated, too bad McCown spent most of the year in the midst a dreadful 5-11 season standing on the sidelines. The Cardinals have to know one way or another whether they consider McCown just as solid a prospect as any of the QBs in the draft. If the Cardinals draft a QB in the first two rounds, the answer to that question will be clear. If the Cardinals do select a QB early, this will present the team with yet another dilemma. Can the rookie be expected to serve as the #2 QB, the way McCown did this past year? IMO, the team would better off signing another free agent QB to battle the first free agent signee and to ensure that the team has three bona fide options at QB should the starter falter or get hurt.

IMO there are three QBs in this draft who look significantly more talented than McCown: Palmer, Leftwich and Grossman. And Kyle Boller looks far more poised and sturdy in the pocket. Dave Ragone has happy feet much like McCown's, although Ragone may have a stronger arm. The sleeper in the draft may be BC's Brian St. Pierre, a cerebral QB with good size, arm strength and feet. I also like several of the intangibles Seneca Wallace (arm strength and mobility) brings to the table despite his diminutive physical stature.

OUTLOOK: Two free agents are a MUST. If the staff has real doubts about McCown, drafting another QB is likely. McCown would most likely clear waivers and could be added to the practice squad. HE SHOULD HAVE BEEN ALLOCATED TO NFL EUROPE, due to the raw aspects of his game, regardless. It would appear that both Palmer and Leftwich will be taken before the Cardinals' pick at #6. And if Suggs and Kennedy are gone as well...the Cardinals may want to trade down...with the thought of keeping Grossman in their sights. Did any of you see the Sportscenter feature on Grossman's off-season workouts with Steve DeBerg? Grossman looked very impressive indeed...especially his quick release.

 

[Russ Smith]

Walter there's no way McCown would clear waivers.

 

[SECTION 11]

Why wasn't either Parsons or McCown sent to Europe?
Is this totally out of our control and based upon positional needs / existing rosters in NFLE? I'm assuming that every team would jump at the chance to send their rookies to Europe, but there's no way that's a reasonable expectation.

Or are we just nuts for not sending one or the other for no reason at all?

 

[Walter Mitchell]

RUNNING BACK: Marcel Shipp is now the feature back as he should be. The biggest question is: What will become of TJ? The Cardinals have said they want to keep him...which seems remarkable in light of not only TJ's blatant lie about his hand injury, but his disappearance after the injury. Can the Cardinals get anything in return for TJ in a trade? It would seem doubtful...both in light of his off-field troubles and his cap figure...in addition to his inconsistent play.

Damien Anderson filled in admirably at tailback when called on, but was poor on kickoff returns. Anderson may be battling for the third spot once again with Josh Scobey, who first appeared to be the type of hard-nosed runner the team covets.

OUTLOOK: It may be wise for the team to get TJ refocussed, rather than take a huge cap hit on him. Perhaps without the pressure of being a starter, TJ can become a real boost off the bench, the way Marcel was in that role. If the Cardinals do look for a RB in the draft, a big power back would fit the bill. If Larry Johnson or Musa Smith are still on the board at #37...the Cardinals may have a tough decision to make. Dwone Hicks may make perfect sense on day two if the Johnson and Smith are taken and/or passed over.

FULLBACK: Neither Joel Makovicka nor Dennis McKinley are quality blockers. Expanding their roles as runners and/or receivers is a moot point, IMO. Wouldn't the team rather have an extra tight end or one of their speedy receivers like Bryan Gilmore on the field than Mak or Mac?

OUTLOOK: A free agent addition at FB would be great, assuming he's a smashmouth blocker. A FB Like Colorado's Brandon Drumm, at 6'2" and 260 lbs. may be the long term answer.

 

[SECTION 11]

Originally posted by Walter Mitchell
OUTLOOK: A free agent addition at FB would be great, assuming he's a smashmouth blocker. A FB Like Colorado's Brandon Drumm, at 6'2" and 260 lbs. may be the long term answer.

The way I see it, Shipp was pretty effective having a lower-grade blocking FB who is at least a threat receiving and rushing.
Drumm really has no other qualities except blocking ability. I think our offense would be better off trading some blocking skills for some type of FB threat, be it rushing or receiving out of the backfield.
Basically, if Shipp can average 4.6 ypc with a below average blocking FB, why not continue with that same set up and get the FB more involved in the offense, instead of getting a better blocker and basically taking the FB out of the offense?

 

[Walter Mitchell]

Quick comment to Russ: If the Cardinals sign let's say, Jake Delhomme and Charlie Batch and draft Leftwich or Grossman...maybe the team can trade McCown on day two of the draft. While you may be right that McCown wouldn't pass through waivers, it's rare to see teams claim young QBs onto their 53 man rosters who haven't been through the team's training camp. Many teams might think that if McCown couldn't make the Cardinals' 53 man roster, then why would he make theirs?

However, if the Cardinals pick Leftwich, Grossman or Boller...McCown's stint with the Cardinals would most likely be as uneventful and insignificant as Chris Greisen's...which means that if McCown does get claimed, the team was going in a different direction anyway.

 

[az643dp]

Originally posted by SECTION 11
Why wasn't either Parsons or McCown sent to Europe?
Is this totally out of our control and based upon positional needs / existing rosters in NFLE? I'm assuming that every team would jump at the chance to send their rookies to Europe, but there's no way that's a reasonable expectation.

Or are we just nuts for not sending one or the other for no reason at all?

My guess would be that since they are the only QB's under contract with the Cards they could not afford to send either one of them over there. The NFL Europe season is right in the heart of the major mini camps, QB schools, Veteran Camps etc...If you sent one of those guys over there, then there would not be enough QB's to work the valuable mini camps. If Jake were under contract, then one of those guys could have gone over there.

 

[ajcardfan]

Since this is the last year's of TJ's deal, they won't take a "huge cap hit" if they cut him. In fact, it would clear about 500K in cap space.

The day after Graves was hired, he said that we were pretty well set at RB with Shipp and Jones. Bringing back Jones would be goofy IMO. UNLESS, he made a public apology for his actions AND stated that he was fully prepared for full competition for playing time. Since those things don't seem to be happening, I'd let him go. Maybe that's what he wants, but if he doesn't want to be here I can't see the value of having him in the lockerroom. With Scobey, Anderson and Anthony White on board, I don't think we use a first day pick on a RB. Maybe we should, but I bet we don't.

 

[Walter Mitchell]

Section 11: Wouldn't you rather have that extra threat on the field to be Bryan Gilmore (the fastest player on the team) than Joel Makovicka?

Also, Brandon Drumm runs up the middle like a freight train, especially near the goal line. Have you see him play?

AZ643: Good point about QBs under contract, but the Cardinals have to know they are adding at least two more to the mix. If McCown goes over to Europe, the team gets to see how the young man plays under pressure...which it failed to do suring this miserable season. And, don't forget, McCown's only real good season in college was at the Division 1-AA level.

This was why selecting McCown in the third round last year was a real reach...at a poor time (with still the worst pass rush in the NFL)...how would have Rocky Bernard (Seahawks) looked in Cardinal red? Remember the licks he laid on Marcel Shipp? No Cardinal defensive lineman made penetration plays all year like the ones Bernard did. The Cardinals also selected Nate Dwyer over Bernard...and what about Alex Brown? And what about Carlos Hall? Now it's a year later...still no pass rush...and still no idea as to whether McCown can play in the NFL. I know heinsight, especially with the NFL draft is 20-20...but, if a team is going to draft a raw player, especially at QB, using a 3rd round pick is highly questionable.

 

[SECTION 11]

Originally posted by Walter Mitchell
Section 11: Wouldn't you rather have that extra threat on the field to be Bryan Gilmore (the fastest player on the team) than Joel Makovicka?

I've seen quite a bit of Drumm's play. He's a downgrade from Mackovika.
I'm just not sold that Colorado's running back depth isn't the reason Drumm's as touted as he is. Usually it's the other way around, this time I don't see it. Colorado had a good O-line, a stable of running backs, and a slow stiff at FB.

 

[Walter Mitchell]

WIDE RECEIVER: If Boston re-signs, even at the one-year franchise tender, the group will be talented and deep (Gilmore, McAddley, Kasper). The biggest question is: Will the team re-sign Martay Jenkins and/or Frank Sanders? I think it's possible both of them will re-sign. Martay has a great thing going with Jerry Sullivan and would be the likely starter once again opposite Boston...and Frank would have to accept a modest salary, but he isn't going to be offered much more anywhere else...and Frank Sanders still has plenty of good football left in him.

OUTLOOK: Six WRs will more than likely make the 53 man roster. Jake Soliday will most likely spend another year on the practice squad. If Sanders and/or Jenkins don't re-sign, Nathan Poole has a shot. The guy has an uncanny ability to get open and he has velcro hands.

TIGHT END: Freddie Jones needs to step up his game. Steve Bush is an unheralded player, and an important and versatile contributor. Mike Banks can block, is good on special teams and will make strides this year as a receiver.

OUTLOOK: Pretty much all set, unless the Cardinals want to add one more H-back type in place of a second FB.

 

[ajcardfan]

Originally posted by SECTION 11
I've seen quite a bit of Drumm's play. He's a downgrade from Mackovika.
I'm just not sold that Colorado's running back depth isn't the reason Drumm's as touted as he is. Usually it's the other way around, this time I don't see it. Colorado had a good O-line, a stable of running backs, and a slow stiff at FB.

Wow. If that's how you see it, that's how you see it. But, I think Drumm was far better in college than Makovicka. He's got better size, hands and speed. Problem is, we'd almost certainly have to draft him on day 1, and I don't know if he's worth it for our team if we go to more two TE, 1 RB sets, which I think we will.

 

[Walter Mitchell]

Section 11: You must have been watching Colorado State, not Colorado. Brandon Drumm is pretty hard to miss. The guy is a load at FB...looks like an even taller Mike Alstott and just as thick, if not more. Drumm is not slow off the ball by any means and he is a tenacious blocker...the Sporting News last year described him in their 2002 edition as a "devastating blocker who gets lost in the glory of their running game." In the games I viewed this year, and I must have seen three or four Colorado games, Drumm played huge...knocking his man on his butt play after play. And every time the Buffs got near the goal line Drumm plowed his way into the endzone like a battering ram. To call him a "downgrade" to Joel Makovicka is mystifying.

 

[az643dp]

Originally posted by Walter Mitchell
AZ643: Good point about QBs under contract, but the Cardinals have to know they are adding at least two more to the mix. If McCown goes over to Europe, the team gets to see how the young man plays under pressure...which it failed to do suring this miserable season. And, don't forget, McCown's only real good season in college was at the Division 1-AA level.

They might know that they are adding more QB's, but they don't know when. The NFL Europe season is from Feb 24 - June 14. These dates encompass most of the camps and classroom work. If they had guys signed already, then either McCown or Parsons could go. There is no telling, however, when the Cards may know who there new QB is. You also need people in camp who have at least some experience with the team. Josh and Preston went through the entire season last year and at least have an idea about the offense.

If we had another established veteran under contract, then I would be all for sending Parsons or McCown to Europe. I would have Parsons as my first choice as McCown fits too high in the Cards plans at the moment. It would be a risk to send him over there if you are looking at him as the #1 at best or #2 at worst.

 

[Russ Smith]

Originally posted by Walter Mitchell
Quick comment to Russ: If the Cardinals sign let's say, Jake Delhomme and Charlie Batch and draft Leftwich or Grossman...maybe the team can trade McCown on day two of the draft. While you may be right that McCown wouldn't pass through waivers, it's rare to see teams claim young QBs onto their 53 man rosters who haven't been through the team's training camp. Many teams might think that if McCown couldn't make the Cardinals' 53 man roster, then why would he make theirs?

However, if the Cardinals pick Leftwich, Grossman or Boller...McCown's stint with the Cardinals would most likely be as uneventful and insignificant as Chris Greisen's...which means that if McCown does get claimed, the team was going in a different direction anyway.

I guess I don't believe we'll add more than 1 QB, 2 at the most. And if we did I think Parsons not McCown would get released.

We weren't the only team ready to grab him when we did, Brandt last year compared him to Aaron Brooks, he's not as polished as Brooks out of college but the athletic ability and arm are similar. A lot of NFL teams would pick up such a guy to groom if we cut him.

I have a sneaky suspicion part of the reason we never started him last year is it would have made it totally obvious how silly we were going into the year with 2 rookie backups. Everyone would see how raw McCown was and it would be very hard to then get people to buy into the "we were 4-2 before all the injuries we're going to be much better next year" talk because if we really believed that the team would have had a better backup on the roster in 2002. That's my latest conspiracy theory at least, as long as Jake was out there none of us would ever know how lucky we were Jake didn't get hurt and we had to put an unready rookie in there.

 

[Walter Mitchell]

Good point, Russ. Although...the Cardinals look even more dumb keeping Jake Plummer in the games down by 20+ when they have a chance to give their young QBs some snaps. We all saw anyway that Josh McCown was not ready to be the team's #2 QB, jst as any of would have suspected.

I guess if the Cardinals draft a QB, they will only sign one free agent...and will be in the same boat all over again...with two untested QB backups. Man, these scenarios are head scratchers, aren't they?

 

[Walter Mitchell]

OFFENSIVE LINE: Appears pretty well set with Shelton at LT, Kendall at LG, BIG at RG and Clement at RT. The biggest question is whether Mike Gruttadauria will be forced into retirement. Jason Starkey played reasonably well in Grutts' absence. Chris Dishman is an extremely valuable sixth man who had a good year. Steven Grace looks like a promising young talent. Raleigh Roundtree was an excellent pickup and will hopefully be re-signed as a backup G/T. John Fina played well in limited appearances and would be great to keep. Tony Wragge was added late and held his own.

OUTLOOK: The depth is intact if Roundtree and Fina re-sign. If Grutts retires and the Cardinals are not all that confident in Starkey and Grace, they may select a center like Brett Romberg or Dan Koppen in the draft.

KICKER: Bill Gramatica rebounded about as well as expected from knee surgery. Should be stronger next year, although he may never be able to add significant length to his kickoffs...just as his older brother hasn't. Tim Duncan might stick as a kickoff specialist if he can provide the leg strength.

OUTLOOK: Gramatica makes pressure field goals and that should not be underestimated.

PUNTER: Scott Player is the goofiest looking "player" in the NFL...but one of the best punters, for sure. He even improved his pooch punts this year. His tackling? Well, that's a different story. Hopefully, with improved coverage, Player will keep his jersey clean next year.

LONGSNAPPER: Nathan Hodel was nearly perfect and he gets downfield very quickly for a snapper. Excellent find for the Cardinals.

 

[SECTION 11]

Originally posted by ajcardfan
Wow. If that's how you see it, that's how you see it. But, I think Drumm was far better in college than Makovicka. He's got better size, hands and speed. Problem is, we'd almost certainly have to draft him on day 1, and I don't know if he's worth it for our team if we go to more two TE, 1 RB sets, which I think we will.

Drumm is known for his LACK of speed. He gets to the line in a hurry for someone as slow as he is, but he's no threat with the ball. Mac's no burner, but c'mon... I would also argue that Mac's a better receiver than Drumm out of the backfield.

As far as college goes, there is no comparison. Mac as a junior rushed for 685 yards and led the nation at 6.5 ypc. As a senior he had 458 yards on a 4.7 ypc average with 9 TD's, more than Rathman, Schlesinger, or any other NE FB.
Most importantly for this conversation, his blocking has improved every year he's been a Cardinal.
I think Drumm's a wasted pick for the Cards, if we pick him up.

 

[SECTION 11]

If you want a good pick-up for FB depth, cut McKinley and pick up Ja'Mar Toombs from (I believe) the Edmonton Eskimos. He came into the NFL combine at around 280 pounds and didn't get drafted a couple of years back. If he has his weight down to 260 or so where he played at A&M, he could be a weapon. He was amazingly fast for his size.

 

[JeffGollin]

Why wasn't either Parsons or McCown sent to Europe?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't the Cards had bad experiences sending 2 QB's to Europe (Stony Case and either Griesen or the other kid that was Griesen's backup?)

Other teams have sent guys to NFL Europe with some degree of success, but not the Cards.

I get the feeling that for that reason, the Cards would rather train their young players at home rather than send them over to Europe.

 

[az643dp]

Originally posted by JeffGollin
Why wasn't either Parsons or McCown sent to Europe?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't the Cards had bad experiences sending 2 QB's to Europe (Stony Case and either Griesen or the other kid that was Griesen's backup?)

Other teams have sent guys to NFL Europe with some degree of success, but not the Cards.

I get the feeling that for that reason, the Cards would rather train their young players at home rather than send them over to Europe.

Stoney Case hurt his shoulder in NFL Europe training camp and never played in an NFL Europe game.

 

[ajcardfan]

Originally posted by SECTION 11
If you want a good pick-up for FB depth, cut McKinley and pick up Ja'Mar Toombs from (I believe) the Edmonton Eskimos. He came into the NFL combine at around 280 pounds and didn't get drafted a couple of years back. If he has his weight down to 260 or so where he played at A&M, he could be a weapon. He was amazingly fast for his size.

Now that we agree on. He was a LOAD at A&M, and I posted several times that I hoped we picked him up as a free agent. I'm glad to see he landed somewhere. He's the posterchild for "Should've stayed in college one more year. Or, at least given up Church's chicken and pizza."

 

[Russ Smith]

Originally posted by ajcardfan
Now that we agree on. He was a LOAD at A&M, and I posted several times that I hoped we picked him up as a free agent. I'm glad to see he landed somewhere. He's the posterchild for "Should've stayed in college one more year. Or, at least given up Church's chicken and pizza."

I tried to find his stats on the official CFL site but he's not listed. I did find he signed with Edmonton in April 2002 but he wasn't listed in any of the team stats(John Avery was the teams star RB) so it would appear Toombs didn't actually play this past year.

I agree great college player ate his way out of an NFL job wish he'd get in shape and play he could really help someone as a short yardage guy.

 

[SECTION 11]

Originally posted by SECTION 11
The way I see it, Shipp was pretty effective having a lower-grade blocking FB who is at least a threat receiving and rushing.
Drumm really has no other qualities except blocking ability. I think our offense would be better off trading some blocking skills for some type of FB threat, be it rushing or receiving out of the backfield.
Basically, if Shipp can average 4.6 ypc with a below average blocking FB, why not continue with that same set up and get the FB more involved in the offense, instead of getting a better blocker and basically taking the FB out of the offense?

Well, we obviously went with the power FB instead of the running/receiving FB.

Being that that's the case, Brandon Drumm was released today from the Lions. He's a Hodgins clone, but there doesn't seem to be a spot for him.

 

[Sandan]

Originally posted by SECTION 11
He's a Hodgins clone,

I doubt that after seem Hodgins abuse Urelacher friday