Affordability of elite NBA defense

[Errntknght]

A few months ago in a thread about rebuilding the team I said that quickest way for the Suns to get back in contention was to target the best defensive players because they are overlooked relative to the best offensive ones and thus cost less. I didn't back it up with any data but I stumbled upon an article which does give some data that supports that thesis:

(From an SBNation site. Note: I rearranged the order and paragraph structure, and added bullets. Link to article: The affordability of an elite NBA defense - SBNation.com )

The affordability of an elite NBA defense
By Tom Ziller on May 20 2013, 9:58am

All final four NBA teams in the 2013 playoffs have elite defenses. What's most interesting about that is that three of the teams have manageable payrolls, too.

There are a number of interesting notes about the NBA's four conference finals participants including ...

****The teams finished Nos. 1, 2, 3 and 7 in team defense over the regular season.

****They were Nos. 2, 7, 17 and 20 in offense.

****The teams ranked Nos. 4, 12, 22 and 25 in payroll, per HoopsHype.

****Three represent traditional small markets, or at least cities considered to be in the small market coalition. (San Antonio is top 10 in the United States in population, but its media market is ranked much lower.)

You might notice this paints a rather different picture of the value of defense relative to offense than Slinslin presented in his post in the thread "What does it take to win in today's NBA". He was cherry picking data to advance his argument, of course.
slinslin,

This year Washington was the #5 defense, better than Miami but they are one of the worst teams in the league.

The best two teams in the NBA, OKC and MIA are the #1 and #2 offensive teams. Miami is only the 9th best defensive. The top 11 offensive teams in the NBA all made the playoffs.

The Spurs are the 3rd best defense and the 7th best offense.

 

[SirStefan32]

That is a very interesting article that makes some great points, and I mostly agree with it, but I do want to add that there is a reason that guys who average 20 points per game get paid a lot more- you need one or two of those guys on your team because you have to be able to score points consistently.

I think the key is to get really good at talent evaluation and player development, and to be able to negotiate effectively. Best way to go is to focus on defensive players who can score and are not useless on offense, AND scorers who can play some D.

 

[elindholm]

One excellent offensive player makes a much bigger difference to a team's bottom line than one excellent defensive player does.

 

[Gaddabout]

Just my very subjective opinion, but perimeter defense is overrated. Defense is about defensive rebounding, and great defensive teams usually have a roster of forwards and big guards who do that well. You can generally scheme most any offense, save for those teams with the rarest of players.

The trick is finding guys who can do that without getting in the way of the scorers.

JMO.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Just my very subjective opinion, but perimeter defense is overrated. Defense is about defensive rebounding, and great defensive teams usually have a roster of forwards and big guards who do that well. You can generally scheme most any offense, save for those teams with the rarest of players.

The trick is finding guys who can do that without getting in the way of the scorers.

JMO.

I'm not sure you can overrate defending the 3 point shot but I also don't believe you can do that effectively if you don't have someone controlling the paint for you.

Steve

 

[Manu4five]

Good post by the OP. It's a pity casual fans and some ppl here still don't understand that great D is just as important (and admirable) as great O.

Defending the perimeter is not important? Just wow...that's one thing that can really determine a playoff series.

Defense is fun and helps you win basketball games, you should try it.

 

[slinslin]

Perimeter defenders do not make a defense, perimeter defense is largely dependant on a teams ability to protect the rim. The defensive impact of guards in the NBA over the years is very minor compared to forwards and centers.

However like I said before defense alone wins nothing. OKC and Miami were the best two teams in the NBA clearly and the #1 and #2 offense. The top 11 offensive teams all made the playoffs while the #5 defensive team did not make the playoffs (Washington).

Defense is not any more important than Offense if you want to win a championship, but an at least average offense is a requirement to winning at all.

Memphis looks like they will get swept in large part because they are simply not good enough offensively.

 

[JCSunsfan]

One excellent offensive player makes a much bigger difference to a team's bottom line than one excellent defensive player does.

It depends. Black hole players who dominate the ball and score
20 a game can lose you a lot of games.

But maybe you don't consider them an excellent offensive players.

I want to see high shooting percentages.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Perimeter defense is nearly useless without an interior defense. Guarding the three and giving up easy layups and second chance shots is a sure way to defeat. Anyone can shoot layups.

Having a good interior defense and poor perimeter defense is nearly as useless. If you give open shots and clear room to pass and navigate on the perimeter almost ANY team is still going to get a high percentage shot.

 

[elindholm]

Black hole players who dominate the ball and score
20 a game can lose you a lot of games.

Yes, of course.

But maybe you don't consider them an excellent offensive players.

Obviously I don't. What on earth inspired you even to entertain such a thing?

 

[Suns_fan69]

Not to put words in Eric's mouth, but a Top 10 offensive player also sells a lot more tickets and jerseys than a top 10 defensive player. I would venture to guess that this makes up the difference in salaries.

 

[slinslin]

Btw..

Take Lebron off the Heat, take Hibbert/George off the Pacers, take Gasol off the Grizzlies, take Duncan off the Spurs..

and suddenly those teams aren't elite defensively anymore. Now take a look what these players make and how that contradicts the thesis of that article that defense is affordable.

 

[Phrazbit]

A lot of succeeding in the NBA defensively is players buying into the coaching scheme and being smart enough to make the rotations. Chicago has maintained strong defense despite injuries across their roster, and with some bad rep defensive players playing big roles (Robinson, Boozer). Neither Pierce or Allen were considered strong defenders during their careers and Boston has been a premiere defensive team even with frequent injuries to KG.

It starts with the coach, and he needs to have players who will listen.

Oh, and the coach needs to do more than just SAY he will emphasize defense (Hunter...), he actually has to know what he is doing.

 

[AzStevenCal]

A lot of succeeding in the NBA defensively is players buying into the coaching scheme and being smart enough to make the rotations. Chicago has maintained strong defense despite injuries across their roster, and with some bad rep defensive players playing big roles (Robinson, Boozer). Neither Pierce or Allen were considered strong defenders during their careers and Boston has been a premiere defensive team even with frequent injuries to KG.

It starts with the coach, and he needs to have players who will listen.

Oh, and the coach needs to do more than just SAY he will emphasize defense (Hunter...), he actually has to know what he is doing.

Are you sure? I'm convinced Hunter just needed to say it to the press a few more times.

Steve

 

[Superbone]

Are you sure? I'm convinced Hunter just needed to say it to the press a few more times.

Steve

And "culture".

 

[Gaddabout]

Good post by the OP. It's a pity casual fans and some ppl here still don't understand that great D is just as important (and admirable) as great O.

Defending the perimeter is not important? Just wow...that's one thing that can really determine a playoff series.

Defense is fun and helps you win basketball games, you should try it.

I'll assume that comment was directed at me.

I should have better stated my point. "Elite perimeter defenders" are overrated. Perimeter defense isn't. If you have elite paint protection, your perimeter players (of most any defensive ilk) can stretch out and guard the 3-point line. If you don't have elite paint protection, it doesn't really matter who you have on the perimeter.

Charles Barkley said:

Defense is rebounding.

And the Chuckster was right. Still is right.

 

[Manu4five]

Charles Barkley is a clown who had way too many drinks. There is much more to defense than rebounding obviously. Also, the point is that great defensive players (bigs or guards) come cheaper than great offensive players.

 

[slinslin]

Also, the point is that great defensive players (bigs or guards) come cheaper than great offensive players.

That is total bull****.

Look at the contracts of

Marc Gasol
Roy Hibbert
Tyson Chandler
Serge Ibaka
Tim Duncan
Kevin Garnett
Lebron James
Paul George
Joakim Noah
DeAndre Jordan
Emeka Okafor
Josh Smith
Javale McGee

And what Kenneth Faried, Larry Sanders will eventually make.

Take those away and those teams are not elite defensive teams (in case they were before).

 

[Manu4five]

Six of the players you listed also average more than 15 ppg. (LeBron is not bad on O you know?). A few players on that list are overpaid because of the shortage of bigs. Some of them have smart owners who do understand what it takes to win, contrary to some other owners.

 

[SirStefan32]

Slin is missing the point of the article and cherry-picking some examples to make a point (which he isn't making anyway.) The article somewhat does the same thing (to a much lesser degree), but the point is that defense is important and is cheaper than offense. It does fail to mention that you still have to have guys who can score.

When I look back at the Suns' WCF appearances, what stands out to me is not that they were a bad defensive team, but that they lost a lot of games because they could not score. Once Popovich would tighten the defense in late fourth quarters, the Suns had nobody who could reliably score.

You can have an all-NBA defensive team, but if you don't have a couple of guys who can say, "Give me the ball, I got this", you are not going to win it all.

 

[Gaddabout]

Charles Barkley is a clown who had way too many drinks. There is much more to defense than rebounding obviously. Also, the point is that great defensive players (bigs or guards) come cheaper than great offensive players.

Not obviously. Defensive rebounding is the only goal of any defense, no matter the style or personnel. If you're a great defensive rebounding team, your points-per-possession defense is going to be one of the best. Hard to see how this is really a discussion.

 

[SirStefan32]

Not obviously. Defensive rebounding is the only goal of any defense, no matter the style or personnel. If you're a great defensive rebounding team, your points-per-possession defense is going to be one of the best. Hard to see how this is really a discussion.

If you really believe that rebounding is all there is to defense, there is really no point in debating anything you say. That's like saying that knowing how to hit he brakes is all there is to driving, or that knowing how to pull a trigger is all there is to competitive shooting.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Not obviously. Defensive rebounding is the only goal of any defense, no matter the style or personnel. If you're a great defensive rebounding team, your points-per-possession defense is going to be one of the best. Hard to see how this is really a discussion.

Are you sure you said this the way you meant it? Most of us have played basketball at one level or another and I'm pretty sure we can all attest, we had other goals defensively than just rebounding. I'm sure that any coach would be thrilled with a defense that garners every single rebound but that isn't the same thing as saying it is their only goal.

Steve

 

[Errntknght]

Not obviously. Defensive rebounding is the only goal of any defense, no matter the style or personnel. If you're a great defensive rebounding team, your points-per-possession defense is going to be one of the best. Hard to see how this is really a discussion.

It sounds like you have temporarily forgotten that defensive rebounding doesn't come into play until you've gotten the other team to miss a shot. If you surrender tons of easy shots your defensive PPP is going to be terrible, no matter how well you rebound the opponents occasional miss.

I'm assuming you have watched basketball so you did know that at one time.

 

[slinslin]

Where was that affordable Memphis perimeter defenses when Tony Parker killed them?